Can this be true ?

[jim king]

In the Amazon there are 1.7 billion acres of jungle and if two trees fall per acre per year that is 3.4 billion trees a year.    Assuming that each tree has a minimum of  11 cubic meters of mass  that is 37,400,000,000 cubic meters of rotting mass per year.    Let´s now assume there would be a 5 year  accumulation of rotting mass that would be equal to just five years of  fellings as some would be in the process of rotting and some would last many more than five years before gone.    Now we have 187,000,000,000 cubic meters of rotting mass.
An average cubic meter of tropical wood weighs  2,544 pounds per cubic meter.  Now if we take 187,000,000,000 cubic meters of  rotting garbage times 2,544 pounds per cubic meter  we have 475,728,000,000 tons of rotting mass on any given day giving off carbon dioxide.
Does the Amazon qualify as the biggest carbon dioxide producer on earth ¿?.

[Don_Papenburg]

So it is you !!!!!!!   And Osoma is blaming the USA and other indutrialized nations for the global warming.

[Tom]

Hmmmm   I been cojitatin' on that a bit sumthin' just don't seem right.  Is those trees hardwood or softwood?  Did they make a noise when they fell, 'cause they might not have fell down?  If your figgers are true, you better line up the natives at the border 'cause Br'er Al will have a bunch of loggers down there trying to cut everything down to get rid of the CO₂.  Or would he be there trying to sweep up all the sawdust?  I don't know, but you best watch that kind of Kyoto talk or you'll get invaded for sure.  :P :D

[fishpharmer]

I'm just glad you didn't figure in the monkey flatuant.  Hmmm. :

[Coon]

Maybe guano ???

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Its true mate but the figures are variable but as id think the average would more like 1 or 2  per 5 to 10 acres in an ageing forest which is nearing the end of its cycle pa  which is still a sizable figure in anyones laguage  ;) but its gettn the other 80% of the population the are compleate bloody Morons to understand that live in the citys and belive all the bull that the  green movment has been feeding them for the last 50 years  ;) ??? ??? : >:(

First it was the pulp industry and how we did things and managed our forests  which in aust was and is worlds best practice  second it was because of some bloody animal or plant which has never been proven to be made extinct  from forestry operations other than on urban developmet sites around citys and largescale land clearing for farms   ;) : Next it will be to lock up all forests to create carbon sinks I tell you that these Bloody Clowns wont be happy untill we have most of the native forests locked up around the world and have succesfully replaced the only enviromentaly frendly building material we have with high corbon emiting substitutes eg steel,plastic and concrete  also  what natural product can be used to create alternative sorces of energy cheaply ;) ??? : :( :( :'( More than ever we have centralised populations living in citys that dont have a bloody clue how the real world works and Dumber than Ever  : : I just ask whats happend to common sence these days   : :

Sorry for the bit of a rant but im abit feedup with Our Industry been used as a get out of jail free card  to make the real offenders fell good about their place in the world and get that nice warm feeling while they are sitting in their home with more appliances swiched on than a person would ever need to own with the aircon flat out  chewing through the coal from a power station ;) there is more than enough timber out there around the world to sustain the human races needs but getting access to it will become more of an issue If the green movement thorugh their continuing devious and manipulative ways  like stating figures in the media and online without the scientific evidence to back up their clams while discounting any solid evidence the industry comes up with and whenever we do get it out there in the media we get shot down by popular opinion and treated like a bunch of dumb arses who have no idea of how the enviroment works as a whole  ;) :( :'(

The first round of the CTS  will be a shambles as they will be after votes and only thinking in 3 to 5 year terms and its eaiser to lockup a forest than it is to solve the real issues which the main one is how people use resorces and what cost that has ont the enviroment

Ill leave it at that for the timebeing but i get alittle wound up about this subject   ;)

Regards Chris

[scgargoyle]

Since plants absorb CO2, I would think that in the natural balance of things, the remaining trees in the forest would absorb the CO2 being emitted by rotting vegetation and whatever sustainable animal population lives there. It's when you remove the trees, and replace them with thousands of animals (people) in hi-rises that things get out of balance. IMHO, very nearly all of the world's problems stem from there being too many people. We've overpopulated so many areas, it isn't funny. No one seems willing to look ahead to see what the long-term effects of a perpetually increasing population will have on all of us. People keep cranking out babies, and modern medicine keeps finding ways to keep us all alive longer. At some point, you go past the point where there is enough land to sustain everyone, and the results where this has already happened are tragic. Sorry to be so grim, but it is what it is. Where's the 'soap box' emoticon when you need one?

[jim king]

Its true mate but the figures are variable but as id think the average would more like 1 or 2  per 5 to 10 acres in an ageing forest which is nearing the end of its cycle pa  which is still a sizable figure in anyones laguage

The life cycle of the forest in the Amazon is short and the figures I stated as to yearly cubic meter per acre loss I believe to be correct based on several studies.   Plus a lot of years crawling over 2 to 5 foot dia trees that are rotting, slippery and slimey .   

Since plants absorb CO2, I would think that in the natural balance of things, the remaining trees in the forest would absorb the CO2 being emitted by rotting vegetation and whatever sustainable animal population lives there. 

Thinking about the "carbon nuetral" phrase I am wondering how that works.  When a 3000 board foot purpleheart falls over and a seeding shoots up to fill the hole left open how can that seedling consume the rotting gases from a tree that has 3000 bf of lumber plus the limbs etc..  ??

This post started out to be a joke when I was writing and doing the calculations but now it has me wondering.   ??? ???

Now as long as I did this on my computor everyone can say this is a new computor model forcast. :D

[zopi]

nahh..it's all cow flatulence...centered in Bovina TX.

[Tom]

Carbon neutral has to be measured over millennium, not a generation or two of trees.  The idea, if carbon sequestration is the proper avenue, is that the same carbon keeps getting tied up over and over rather than it all being released at any one given point in time.

My opinion is that the measure of Carbon isn't a valid mark of the world's health to begin with, much less the assumption that we can control were it goes and when it is released.  You folks have volcanoes down there that spew more carbon into the air than generations of locals can release by cutting trees.

Now, that's not to say that all the trees can be cut indiscriminately.  There are other reasons to keep the ecosystem in some kind of balance, but Carbon is just a political football to get a handle on controlling the local societies.

Carbon Sequestration would not have that tree rotting in the woods.  It would have to be placed in an environment where the carbon remained in that wood state forever, while new trees grew and tied up  more carbon.  I've always wondered how the Carbon Sequestration people would know when they had tied up enough of it.  and start micromanaging its release.  You can't tie up a natural nutrient for all of eternity and expect your action to not need some kind of reverse management later on.  That's what is so good about nature.  It doesn't realize that we are as important as we think we are.   It just goes on about its business of letting too much of something here, take away from something there until the "too much" and the "too little" get along.


What we have is too many people.  Nature might just be rebelling and is in the process of getting rid of some of them.  We don't like it because we are so arrogant.  The fact is that this world might have decided that we aren't needed any longer.  We haven't been here too long anyway.  Perhaps our being here was a fix for something else, like Atlantis sinking and the Atlantic Ocean being created  and stuff like that.   Who's to say that our saving the human race is a proper thing to do, ecologically.

Has anyone measured the amount of carbon and sulfur, etc. being released from the fissures in the bottom of the oceans, or, the chemicals spewing forth from all of the volcanoes, or, the stuff that bombards the earth from space every million years or so?  How are the micro-managers going to handle the next solar flare?

Is there really a difference in the tree that fell from a high wind and the tree that was felled by a pygmy to make a canoe? 

Now there is an answer that hasn't been broached.  How about we make everybody pygmies.   That way the trees go further and we will be arguing about the felling of sunflower stalks.  It seems that the world's guru's can think of nothing but how healthy we are because we keep getting bigger and bigger.  What with the manipulation of genetics, perhaps we should be trying to get a corn crop to produce less and injecting people with "don't grow big" genes.  Look at the size of Al Gore.  The guy is 6'1".  He doesn't need to be that tall to be important.  A case in point is James Madison, the fourth President of the USA, he was 5'4" and was considered a founding father.  Maybe what the world needs is a shrink-a-rater.

How's that for running on?

[jim king]

Tom:
You maybe were doing it jokingly but you made a lot of good points.  I still wonder about the continuous falling of big  trees being replace by small trees.  To me that is a constant positive carbon emission ¿?¿?

Your are right about people being the problem.  Here are the results of a Google search on non profit companies helping 8 of the countries of the Amazon.  Four and a half million web sites asking for money and they have never been here. 

99% have a box in the corner somewhere where to send money to them.  With the hundreds of millions of dollars they collect how many trees could be saved to absorb monkey farts if all that paper money was not needed  8)   It gets very difficult to determine if being GREEN means collecting dollars or saving the world ?

The information below looks more like dollars than ecology.  For those that have not heard the name NGO it means Non Governmental Organizatio  which operates and collects donations from anybody who believes them and they pay NO taxes.  NGO´s are BIG uncontrolled business.

Try this:



FORESTRY
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 395,000 de Ngo peru forest. (0.27 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 944,000 de Ngo brazil forest. (0.27 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 270,000 de Ngo ecuador forest. (0.24 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 709,000 de Ngo guyana forest. (0.38 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 402,000 de Ngo surinam forest. (0.42 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aprox 225,000 de Ngo venezuela forest. (0.28 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 1,300,000 de ngo bolivia forest. (0.60 segundos)
Resultados 1 - 10 de aproximadamente 347,000 de ngo colombia forest. (0.26 segundos)
4,592,000 sites

[crtreedude]

Jim, as you probably know, if a healthy forest, some trees are dying, and they leave room for others to get bigger. All the trees on the side of the "corridor of light" will respond with new growth due to more access to light, nutrients.

A stable forest is considered neutral regarding absorption of carbon. It is a carbon sink, but a static one. Some things are decomposing, other growing - but they balance out.

[Don_Papenburg]

You need to get the portable saw mill out there and cut up the fallen purpleheart  into nice boards that you send to the midwest  so I can use that wood to build things  . Then the sawdust and slabs will decompose faster and new trees can sprout faster in the space that the former huge trunk  lay.

[Brucer]

Does the Amazon qualify as the biggest carbon dioxide producer on earth ¿?.

Nope.

Trees use sunlight to convert water and CO2 to  sugars, starches, cellulose, etc. -- the essential building blocks of the tree. The entire "forest" is growing and absorbing C02. In a healthy forest there's trees of all ages. The young ones are too small to take up much carbon dioxide. The larger ones take up a great deal of CO2. And eventually the trees die, fall down, and rot. As they decompose they break down into water and C02. As long as the mass of the forest remains the same, the net CO2 contribution is zero.

Same thing applies to burning wood. If you remove dying trees from a forest and turn them into firewood, all you've done is generate the CO2 somewhat faster than nature would do it.

Now when folks start clear-cutting large swaths of forest and leaving the wood to rot, or burning it in open waste piles, it's a different story. Farmland doesn't consume CO2 as fast as a healthy forest.

[jim king]

Brucer:

I have been searching and searching on the internet to find out how the carbon obsorbing occurs and details about all phases.  All I can find is the general theory that you have given but no where can I find where some one actually took an acre and followed thru to see if the theory is true.

Watching a mature forest that is continually dying and being replaced by small trees it seems logical that any forest would be a carbon producer and not nuetral.   The mature trees as I see it are not adding much if any growth and the leaves that grow are only replacing those that are falling and rotting.

I can see where a managed forest where the trees are harvested and made into products that do not decompose creating the feared carbon dioxide and new growth replaces them
would be accomplishing something.

Slash and burn as is done here is certainly bad and laws have to be changed to permit people to log to eliminate that.  Clear cutting in the States of a pine plantation where everything is logged , chipped and whatever should be positive in the greenies mind and the newgrowth has no carbon producing rotting mess to cover up for.

Does anyone know how much carbon an acre of corn absorbs a year compared to a mature forest ?

Analyizing your comment you seem to lean the same direction as myself.  The problem of the CO2 is not going to be solved by the forests but something has to be done to make cities and populated areas responsible for thier own actions and stop putting the problem on to the forest industry. :

[Wudman]

I saw a little blip on the radar screen a few months back concerning a study that was being conducted in the Amazon Basin in relation to Co2 emissions and global warming.  It was a long term study (from the enviro side) that was supposed to support the notion that clearcutting lead to an increase in CO2 emmissions.  They had 100 monitoring platform set up across a large area monitoring the emissions of various cover types.  Their long term data indicated that mature forests were a net contributor of CO2.  Younger forests were a CO2 sink.  The data was counter productive to their agenda so the study was buried.  I can't remember who was doing the research but I couldn't turn up anything with a quick search.

I know the Smithsonian has been researching the issue for 25+ years.  Their research indicated the same.......A young vigourous forest is a better carbon "trap" than an "old growth" forest.

Wudman

[jim king]

zopi:

nahh..it's all cow flatulence...centered in Bovina TX.

Livestock such as cows, sheep, goats, camels, buffaloes, and termites release methane as well.  Bacteria in the gut of the animal break down food and convert some of it to methane. When these animals belch, methane is released.  In one day, a cow can emit ½ pound of methane into the air.  Imagine 1.3 billion cattle each burping methane several times per minute!   (32 million tons a day or 93,440,000,000 tons a year)   :



http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/greenhouse.htm

[jim king]

After finding a trove of buzzwords that led me into the carbon and global warming dilemma I will summarize what I deciphered as follows .

There is no agreement that there has been global warming over the last 150 more or less industrialized years.  One site showed a graph that maybe temperatures have risen 1 degree in the last 150 years but had no way to back it up.

There does seem to be agreement that the ocean temperatures are rising somewhat from the floor of the ocean up and changing ocean currents and moving mini climates around.

As Wudman says there now seems to be a wide concensus that a mature forest as the Amazon is a dud for carbon secuestration.  As you guys say it is nuetral.  Everyone needs to cut more trees down so the new growth sucks the carbon out of the air.

Also one web site showed the carbon absorbtion of corn and soybeans.  They do very well but the lights went out when I had those pages on the screen and I lost them.  I went thru a lot of pages today.

Carbon accumulation in forests and soils eventually reaches a saturation point, beyond which additional sequestration is no longer possible. This happens, for example, when trees reach maturity, or when the organic matter in soils builds back up to original levels before losses occurred. Even after saturation, the trees or agricultural practices would need to be sustained to maintain the accumulated carbon and prevent subsequent losses of carbon back to the atmosphere.

http://www.epa.gov/sequestration/faq.html#3

Here are some more interesting excerpts:

Carbon Sequestration
http://www.cypenv.org/Files/sequest.htm

Photosynthetic sequestration

There has been some emphasis that the notion of planting trees will make a significant difference to the carbon loading in the atmosphere. To be able to absorb the excess annual loading of 3 Gt would mean that about 15 Gt of extra trees would need to be grown each year and this would do nothing for the carbon already added as a result of human activity. Some of this would be returned in the short term as a result of rotting leaves. What exactly does this mean? The General Sherman tree in the Sequoia National Park in California is estimated to weigh a little over 6 kt; it would therefore require an extra annual growth equivalent to 2,500,000 such trees, just to sequester the excess carbon dioxide we are adding to the atmosphere each year, and we would have to repeat this feat every year. This is unimaginable. Of course, sequoia trees are not ideal for this, and smaller fast-growing species, such as willows, pines, hazel etc. would be more suitable. These would require vast quantities of water, which is a precious commodity in many places, and nutrients, some of which are derived from fossil fuels sources.

Let us imagine that, by some means, we are able to plant millions of new trees, obviously quick-growing, in sufficient quantity to make a significant photosynthetic absorption. What will happen? Two scenarios are possible: either man culls the new trees when they have reached the end of their main growth period (say, after 20 or 30 years) or nature takes its course. Such trees are unlikely to be a suitable source of timber. The main usefulness would be as fuel for renewable energy generation. So, they are burnt. All the sequestered carbon is therefore returned to the atmosphere and we are back where we started. The same applies if they are used for cheap paper production (newsprint): sooner or later, the carbon will be released back to the atmosphere, no matter how many times it is recycled. If we let nature take its course, the trees will die and rot or be burnt in forest fires. Either way, the sequestered carbon will be returned to the atmosphere.

Such sequestration, at the best, can be only a very temporary palliative and can never represent a permanent solution to the excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Conclusion
There is no possibility of being able to sequester sufficient carbon dioxide from the atmosphere that would make any significant impact on the amount that man is adding annually, let alone capturing the amounts that have accumulated over the past century or so. Nor does it seem practical for large scale schemes to prevent carbon dioxide from being emitted. As an approximation, it is probable that any possible action that could be undertaken would fall short of the needs by many orders of magnitude. It would require a total of about 200 Gt of carbon to be sequestered to restore the atmosphere to 1850 levels of carbon loading.

An interesting day.

[pineywoods]

nahh..it's all cow flatulence...centered in Bovina TX.

Actually Bovina is in Mississippi, right on I 20 just west of Jackson

[zopi]

nahh..it's all cow flatulence...centered in Bovina TX.

Actually Bovina is in Mississippi, right on I 20 just west of Jackson

See? it's spreading!  Bovina TX is a wide place in the road with cattle for miles...wonderful smell..bought some equipment there once..

[Ernie]

The most effective way to cut CO2 emissions globally would be to get all the worlds politicians, federal, state/provincial and municipal as well as senior civil servants and UN staff to stop exhaling for an hour.  That would also solve a multitude of other problems and the world would be a much better place.

[Banjo picker]

Amen

[SPIKER]

The action of carbon sequestration has gone on a long time, that is where the coal comes from old forests that grew million years ago fell into a swamp and didnt rot only got compressed and buried ever deeper until the pressure and temp turned it into coal, and or diamonds ;)   but if you let them get that squished it is hard to get much fuel out of them.  lol

I say that the stopping those politicians form exhaling all that hot air is a great start hahaha

Mark

[Don_Papenburg]

Not only stopping them from exhaling  the bad breath but , Make them take trains and passenger ships for travel to places that they do not want to drive themselves.   



trains use about one tenth the fuel as a jet per person /mile I don't know about ships but I would think it would be close  as barge shipments on the Mississippi Is one of the most economical forms of transit

[isawlogs]

Theres enough of them that they could boatpool .. take turns rowing .

[Brucer]

Analyizing your comment you seem to lean the same direction as myself.  The problem of the CO2 is not going to be solved by the forests but something has to be done to make cities and populated areas responsible for thier own actions and stop putting the problem on to the forest industry. :

Yep, you're right.

A growing forest converts carbon dioxide to "tree material". The total chemistry gets pretty complicated, and isn't even fully understood. However, the fundamentals are very well known.

6 CO₂ + 5 H₂O + sunlight --> C₆H₁₀O₅ + 6 O₂

In other words, 6 carbon dioxide molecules plus 5 water molecules are converted by photosynthesis to one molecule of "tree material" plus six molecules of oxygen. The term "tree material" refers here to starch, cellulose, or dextrin. They are all made up of exactly the same elements in the same proportions, but those elements are arranged in different configurations. There are other materials in a tree's structure, of course, but sticking with the cellulose molecule at least puts us in the ball park.

Given the molecular weights for the 3 basic elements: C = 12, H = 1, O = 16, you can calculate how much each molecule weighs relative to the others.

CO₂ = 44;  44 x 6 molecules = 264
H₂O = 18; 18 x 5 molecules = 90
C₆H₁₀O₅ = 162; 162 x 1 molecule = 162
O₂ = 32; 32 x 6 molecules = 192

So, you discover that it takes 264 kg of carbon dioxide plus 90 kg of water to make 162 kg of cellulose and in the process generates 192 kg of oxygen. So??? So at least now you've got some numbers you can use as a reality check when someone throws a bunch of figures at you about forests and carbon dioxide.

A growing forest is a net consumer of carbon dioxide. Eventually, however, it will get to a size where it is carbon dioxide neutral. There's several things that can limit the growth ...

• Not enough carbon dioxide -- highly unlikely these days  ;D.
• Not enough water -- very likely, unfortunately.
• Not enough sunlight -- possible, due to humans fooling about.
• Not enough trace minerals -- a shortage of Nitrogen or Phosphorus is a possibility. They both contribute to photosynthesis.

A prolonged drought in the Amazon would not only stop any growth, it could lead to a large-scale die-off, leading to the release of all that stored carbon.

Some people have figure out that if you seed the upper atmosphere with sulphur dioxide, it will form tiny droplets of sulphuric acid, which reflects sunlight. "Hey! What a great idea! Let's do that and reduce the amount of incoming energy. That should offset the current energy imbalance." Yeah, and what about all that carbon stored up in mature forests? Did anyone think about what could happen to that? Not likely.

So a massive forest can be a carbon sink, but it can also become a carbon source in a hurry. Folks also overlook the other things forests do. A large forest is:

• a massive air conditioner, big enough to affect weather patterns.
• an oxygen generator. Without photosynthesis we'd have no oxygen to breathe.
• a ground water regulator. The wetter the ground, the more water the trees will move into the air.

These are things you want to be careful about messing with.

There is a way to sequester carbon using a forest, however. Stop making buildings with concrete (concrete manufacture generates way too much carbon dioxide anyway). For each tree species figure out at what point it's carbon dioxide absorption rate starts to diminish. Cut down only trees that have reached that size and replant new trees to replace them. Hire a bunch of sawyers to cut all those trees up into timbers. Then hire a bunch of timber framers to make large buildings from the timbers. Use the side lumber for siding, interior walls, etc. Chip the slabs to make OSB for wall sheathing. Co-ordinate the whole process so the trees are being turned into wood at a steady rate.

There you go ... carbon dioxide reduction, increased employment, healthier forests, happy sawyers ... what could be finer ;D ;D ;D?

[jim king]

Brucer:

The was a great answer.  You snowed me with some of the formulas but the common sense part makes sense to me.

Thankyou

[Brucer]

Brucer:
You snowed me with some of the formulas but the common sense part makes sense to me.

Yeah, I was always good at Chemistry, Physics, and Math. Languages and "social studies" were nearly my downfall. My whole family considered my failing grades in P.E. were a given.

I wasn't trying to snow anyone; rather, I wanted to make the point that you don't have to necessarily take someone else's word that something is (or is not) so. When it comes to climate change issues, I'd just as soon work out the numbers myself, when and if I can.

Very briefly, for those who care, you describe a molecule in terms of the numbers of each element that it is made from. Most of us have heard carbon dioxide described as CO2 at one time or another. That's traditionally written as CO₂ -- meaning one Carbon atom and two Oxygen atoms. Most of us have also heard water described as H2O, technically H₂O, meaning two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen atom. Lots of people don't realize that an oxygen molecule is made up of two oxygen atoms joined together. Hence O₂ . Fortunately the atoms that we use most often are described by their first letters. I ain't gonna tell you about atoms like lead and gold and silver -- they aren't obvious and they aren't needed for discussions on climate change anyway.

As far as the actual equation, the number in front tells you how many molecules take part in the reaction. 6 CO₂ means 6 molecules of CO₂ -- if there's no number in front, then only one molecule is involved.

The key point is that there has to be the same number of atoms on each side of the -->. I have 6 carbons on the left, so I need to have 6 on the right. Same principle for Oxygen and Hydrogen. If the equation isn't balanced, either someone is being sloppy, or they're trying to put one over on you.

So enough of that, already, unless someone really, really wants me to elaborate  ???.

You can also get an idea of how much wood a tree gains every year by looking at the rings. (Actually, I'm not sure that trees in the Amazon will have rings -- the rings on our northern trees are caused by different growth rates in the spring and summer. I wouldn't be at all surprised if tropical trees have a uniform growth all year round). In any case, if you consider a tree to be a very tall cone, then its surface area is radius-at-the-butt times the height times pi (3.1416). Make both measurements in feet. Then measure the width of the outermost ring (or better yet, average half a dozen rings). If you measured in inches, divide by 12 to convert to feet. Now multiply the surface area by the width of the ring, and you'll get the volume of wood the tree gained during one year.

If you've made it that far, find out the bone dry weight for one cubic foot of your tree species and you can calculate the weight of wood added each year. Multiply that by 1.63 and you know how much carbon dioxide the tree consumed in a year. "Huh? Wait a darn minute! Where'd that number come from?" Oops, sorry. If you go back and look at my tree chemistry formula, you'll see that 264 kg of carbon dioxide gives you 162 kg of cellulose (i.e., "tree"). And 264/162 = 1.63, simply the proportion of carbon dioxide to wood.

So knowing the size of an average tree, and how fast it's growing, and how many trees are on an acre, you can actually figure out for yourself how much carbon dioxide that forest is consuming.

Of course, to complete the picture you should also figure out how many trees fall down per acre, how much they weigh when they die, and how long it takes them to completely decay. From that you can work out how much carbon dioxide the forest is releasing back to the atmosphere.

One final thought before I go to bed. I realize that lots of people aren't fluent in "chemistry" (and many don't want to be). But if you happen to know a high school student who is good at chemistry, this is the kind of real-world problem that they might not find in a text book. Not only will it give you a chance to be sure someone isn't trying to baffle you with fake science, it will teach the student that he or she doesn't have to accept things at face value either.

[SwampDonkey]

I would like to challenge the 11 m³ figure. How big as in diameter, and height do those jungle trees grow? I'm quite sure they don't grow as big as the Pacific Northwestern trees nor live anywhere as long. I can remember standing is Sitka spruce stands 250 feet tall and 8 feet in diameter in BC and there was 2200 m3/ha standing there, around 45 on a ha, ~225 m² (15m x15m) of growing space a tree.

It looks to me someone is taking NW coast tree figures and trying to apply to the jungle, probably have never been there to see the trees. ;)

[jim king]

SwampDonkey:

Here are some photos of the typical problem trees that are continuosly falling.  Walking a few miles thru the jungle and crawling over one of these every 50 feet is not a good day.
In the photo of the fallen Ipe log note the guy in the Green shirt at the other end of the log.

Brucer:

I will study the formulas and have it in my mind working later.  Thankyou

[jim king]

Sometimes it takes a while for the old brain to get out of low gear but I have finally come up with the question or statement that I have been unable to put clearly.

When walking thru the mature tropical forest of the Amazon it very much appears that there is more dead and rotting material than new growth being created.

Now I finally got it said in a clear way.  Many more big dead trees and whatever rotting than little trees growing fast enough to offset the accumulated rotting mess.

[SwampDonkey]

The trouble with measuring DBH with those trees in the jungle, is they have major but flare. Go up above that guy's head in the third picture about 10 feet and the diameter is a whole lot smaller. Sitka spruce carry their diameter a long way up the trunk. I know about crawling over large downed trees. On some areas of the Queen Charlotte Islands, it was a wasteland of red cedar logs from being cut and laid on the ground during WWII, still sound as a nut in the heartwood. They couldn't get them off those mountains with what they had to work with, or just plain wasteful. The girth of those things was up to 10 feet and try climbing over those. Some had 12" hemlock growing off the rotten sapwood. We had to measure the second growth including those saprophytic hemlock.



150 foot tall western red cedar.

[jim king]

SwampDonkey:

Many of the flared trees can have the flare up 20 feet.  It is not to scientific but what they do here is cut the DBA volume in half to compensate.  The photo showing taking the DBA was a gvernment forester marking the trees that I could legally cut on my own land.  These are called desk foresters here.  They maybe know what wood thier desk is made of and nothing more.  They hate the jungle.

[fishpharmer]

Jim King, were you allowed to mill the fallen trees? 

Those are some serious trees.  Sounds like serious red tape too.

[jim king]

fishpharmer:

Once we have an on site inspection and tell the inspector what the tree is he notes it in the record and we are allowed to cut up to 10,600 bf every 8 to ten years per hectare sometimes much less depending on the species.  After they are cut into cants they are numbered individually and approved.

This is the chain of custody coming your way soon.  If you have not seen it I can post it.

Removing these old dying trees is done by chainsawing cants and carrying them out by hand.

A skidder is useless is the rolling wet soil changing to swamp every hundred yards.

[Magicman]

That is a good number of short cants.  What happens to them next?

[jim king]

Magicman:

I used to produce a lot of 1/4 to 4/4 ,S4S, KD hobby wood each board shrink wrapped.  Also turning blanks.

[SwampDonkey]

SwampDonkey:

Many of the flared trees can have the flare up 20 feet.  It is not to scientific but what they do here is cut the DBA volume in half to compensate.

The only trouble with that method, as I see from that 3rd photo is the diameter should be the square root, the diameter is exaggerated not only in width, but depth.  :D :D




That isn't tree base, just a shaky hand drawing a DBH line. :D

[jim king]

Swampdonkey:

I have tried to copy a forestry inventory but it comes out a mess when I post it.  We had a forester here from Van Couver and almost killed him.  Not his kind of forest but he did determine that our inventory was " significantly underestimated".  The problem was that we underestimated the height.  That report is in Adobe and I cannot copy that either.

[SwampDonkey]

Well I was trying to get the heights out of ya, you don't have to send a whole cruise. Just jot down a half dozen diameter/height measurements. I can bet there ain't many 200 feet though, not from what I see. If your in a lot of flat land, which I assume so because of swamps, that guy had better know his stuff because if you can see the tops, I can bet you can't see dbh. I works in salal covered forest and good luck. The best we could do was take out a paint can, a lighter and make a blow torch, and look for light or orange flames. :D What was the guy's timber cruiser accreditation number? ;) Maybe it was too far back in time. I question it already if he told ya what you said about diameters.  ;D

[jim king]

SwampDonkey:

I have a very slow connection and I did not see your sketch about the log in the corner of the stump.  That is a benifit of caveman logging as we do.  We use everything when freehand chainsaw logging.

[SwampDonkey]

Using everything is one matter, but I hope your not buying stumpage.  ??? Of course it may not make a huge difference in the bottom line if the product is high dollar.

[jim king]

SwampDonkey:

I see you don´t list your email but mine is    j

ameskingpe@yahoo.es   ,    Send me your email and I will send the things of interest to you that I cannot post due to my stupidity.

Your analysis will be interesting.

[SwampDonkey]

Ain't gonna make it no easier Jim.

Maybe you don't have the original cruise info tally sheets. If you do there should be DBH and heights taken in table form by species. Some cruises use dot tally in each row x column (species x diameter) cell. Some cruise methods wright the diameter to nearest mm beside a species name.

A cruise is useless unless you, the benefactor, can read it. ;)

Nobody will call ya stupid, if so I'll give'm a thump'n. ;D

[jim king]

Swamp Donkey;

I don´t know exactly how much land I have with title as the surveys here can vary depending on Indian uprisings.  I have somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 acres.  I don´t buy stumpage.  I paid the people by the bf to bring me the cants.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm just trying to size up the trees, not the size of the woodlot or who got paid what. That ain't none of my business.

[jim king]

SwampDonky;

I have a quite long report by the Canadian Forester brought here to verify everyth¡ng and a several versions of the forestry inventory.

Happy to send them.

[SwampDonkey]

just a half dozen diameters with heights. ;D

[jim king]

SwampDonkey:

This summary is the best I can do as the details to get to this point were not important to me.  I was interested in volume and species.  Nothing more.  I am afraid this will mean nothing except that there is about 600 million board feet here.

When I post it , it comes out very disorganized on this end.  I hope it is better there.

    FORESTRY INVENTORY ANALYSIS MANAOS DEL TIPISHCA
NOTE:  CONTAINS ERRORRS IN DUPLICATION OF SPECIES SUBJECT TO FINAL REVISION   7000 hect   
26 SAMPLES   Nºs 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 13, 20, 21, 28, 29, 35, 36, 43, 50, 51, 52, 53, 58, 59, 60, 61, 67, 69, 77, 84
   EACH INVENTORY PLOT SIZE  25mt x 100mt         
NAME OF   TOTAL BF   AVG BF   AVG BF   BF TOTAL   RANK   % OF   RUNNING
SPECIES   INVENTORIED   PER   PER    ON 7000   BY   TOTAL   TOTAL
   PER SPECIES   PARCEL   HECTARIA   HECTARIAS   VOLUME   VOLUME   
MACHIMANGO        76,273.00      2,934.00        11,734.00      82,139,670.00    1             0.15              0.15
QUNILLA        27,784.00      1,069.00          4,274.00      29,921,231.00    2             0.05              0.20
AÑUJE MOENA        24,421.00         939.00    http:// http://www.yahoo.es/www.yahoo.es/      3,757.00      26,299,538.00    3             0.05              0.25
PASHACO         20,944.00         806.00          3,222.00      22,555,077.00    4             0.04              0.29
COPAL        20,369.00         783.00          3,134.00      21,935,846.00    5             0.04              0.33
CASHIMBO CASPI        20,222.00         778.00          3,111.00      21,777,538.00    6             0.04              0.36
CAUCHO MASHA        15,947.00         613.00          2,453.00      17,173,692.00    7             0.03              0.39
APACHARAMA        15,539.00         598.00          2,391.00      16,734,308.00    8             0.03              0.42
MURURE        14,506.00         558.00          2,232.00      15,621,846.00    9             0.03              0.45
TANGARANA        14,254.00         548.00          2,193.00      15,350,462.00    10             0.03              0.48
PUCUNA CASPI        14,095.00         542.00          2,168.00      15,179,231.00    11             0.03              0.51
CUMALA        13,300.00         512.00          2,046.00      14,323,077.00    12             0.03              0.53
TORNILLO        13,065.00         503.00          2,010.00      14,070,000.00    13             0.03              0.56
YACUCHAPANA        12,787.00         492.00          1,967.00      13,770,615.00    14             0.02              0.58
MOENA        12,738.00         490.00          1,960.00      13,717,846.00    15             0.02              0.60
QUILLOSISA        11,575.00         445.00          1,781.00      12,465,385.00    16             0.02              0.63
AGUANILLO          9,680.00         372.00          1,489.00      10,424,615.00    17             0.02              0.64
CAIMITILLO          9,437.00         363.00          1,452.00      10,162,923.00    18             0.02              0.66
CANELA MOENA          9,275.00         357.00          1,427.00        9,988,462.00    19             0.02              0.68
MOENA AMARILLA          7,313.00         281.00          1,125.00        7,875,538.00    20             0.01              0.69
AZUCAR HUAYO          7,305.00         281.00          1,124.00        7,866,923.00    21             0.01              0.71
QUILLO BORDON          7,076.00         272.00          1,089.00        7,620,308.00    22             0.01              0.72
MOENA NEGRA           6,530.00         251.00          1,005.00        7,032,308.00    23             0.01              0.73
CAPINURI          5,934.00         228.00             913.00        6,390,462.00    24             0.01              0.75
CARAHUASCA           5,879.00         226.00             904.00        6,331,231.00    25             0.01              0.76
REQUIA          5,816.00         224.00             895.00        6,263,385.00    26             0.01              0.77
QUINILLA BLANCA          5,237.00         201.00             806.00        5,639,846.00    27             0.01              0.78
SHIRINGA          4,715.00         181.00             725.00        5,077,692.00    28             0.01              0.79
CEPANCHINA          4,608.00         177.00             709.00        4,962,462.00    29             0.01              0.80
SACHA UBILLA          4,547.00         175.00             700.00        4,896,769.00    30             0.01              0.80
QUINILLA ROJO          4,431.00         170.00             682.00        4,771,846.00    31             0.01              0.81
MANCHARI CASPI          4,296.00         165.00             661.00        4,626,462.00    32             0.01              0.82
RIFARI          4,146.00         159.00             638.00        4,464,923.00    33             0.01              0.83
CHULLACHAQUI          4,107.00         158.00             632.00        4,422,923.00    34             0.01              0.84
SACHA CHUCHUHUAZA          4,097.00         158.00             630.00        4,412,154.00    35             0.01              0.84
MOENA BLANCA          3,869.00         149.00             595.00        4,166,615.00    36             0.01              0.85
LECHE CASPI          3,717.00         143.00             572.00        4,002,923.00    37             0.01              0.86
MARI MARI          3,654.00         141.00             562.00        3,935,077.00    38             0.01              0.87
HUAYRURO          3,577.00         138.00             550.00        3,852,154.00    39             0.01              0.87
SHIMBILLO           3,473.00         134.00             534.00        3,740,154.00    40             0.01              0.88
PUCAQUIRO          3,358.00         129.00             517.00        3,616,308.00    41             0.01              0.89
HUAYRA CASPI          3,272.00         126.00             503.00        3,523,692.00    42             0.01              0.89
PEINE DE MONO          3,096.00         119.00             476.00        3,334,154.00    43             0.01              0.90
REMO CASPI          2,978.00         115.00             458.00        3,207,077.00    44             0.01              0.90
QUINILLA ROJA          2,944.00         113.00             453.00        3,170,462.00    45             0.01              0.91
YAHUARACHI CASPI          2,732.00         105.00             420.00        2,942,154.00    46             0.01              0.91
MARUPA           2,434.00           94.00             374.00        2,621,231.00    47             0.01              0.92
CUNCHI MOENA          2,433.00           94.00             374.00        2,620,154.00    48             0.01              0.92
SHIMBILLO BLANCO          2,165.00           83.00             333.00        2,331,538.00    49             0.00              0.93
SACHA CUMACEBA          2,142.00           82.00             330.00        2,306,769.00    50             0.00              0.93
MASARANDUBA          1,998.00           77.00             307.00        2,151,692.00    51             0.00              0.94
SHIMBILLO COLORADO          1,759.00           68.00             271.00        1,894,308.00    52             0.00              0.94
CETICO          1,742.00           67.00             268.00        1,876,000.00    53             0.00              0.94
CHARAPILLA          1,720.00           66.00             265.00        1,852,308.00    54             0.00              0.95
MENTOL CASPI          1,435.00           55.00             221.00        1,545,385.00    55             0.00              0.95
SACHA CHUCHUHUASI          1,343.00           52.00             207.00        1,446,308.00    56             0.00              0.95
SAPOTILLO          1,326.00           51.00             204.00        1,428,000.00    57             0.00              0.95
CHIMBILLO ROJO          1,242.00           48.00             191.00        1,337,538.00    58             0.00              0.96
SACHA CASHO          1,189.00           46.00             183.00        1,280,462.00    59             0.00              0.96
SACHA CHARICHUELO          1,173.00           45.00             180.00        1,263,231.00    60             0.00              0.96
CHUCHUHUASI          1,128.00           43.00             174.00        1,214,769.00    61             0.00              0.96
PAMPA REMOCASPI          1,107.00           43.00             170.00        1,192,154.00    62             0.00              0.96
QUINILLA NEGRA          1,105.00           43.00             170.00        1,190,000.00    63             0.00              0.97
ASUFRE CASPI          1,069.00           41.00             164.00        1,151,231.00    64             0.00              0.97
SIETE HERMANOS          1,040.00           40.00             160.00        1,120,000.00    65             0.00              0.97
ACEITE CASPI             993.00           38.00             153.00        1,069,385.00    66             0.00              0.97
ITAUBA             991.00           38.00             152.00        1,067,231.00    67             0.00              0.97
PALOMETA HUAYO             975.00           38.00             150.00        1,050,000.00    68             0.00              0.98
HUIMBA             936.00           36.00             144.00        1,008,000.00    69             0.00              0.98
TORTUGA             931.00           36.00             143.00        1,002,615.00    70             0.00              0.98
SACHA CAIMITILLO             918.00           35.00             141.00           988,615.00    71             0.00              0.98
CASCARILLA              840.00           32.00             129.00           904,615.00    72             0.00              0.98
QUINILLA NEGRO             705.00           27.00             108.00           759,231.00    73             0.00              0.99
PALISANGRE              600.00           23.00               92.00           646,154.00    74             0.00              0.99
YASHINGO CASPI             549.00           21.00               84.00           591,231.00    75             0.00              0.99
SHIRINGA MASHA             529.00           20.00               81.00           569,692.00    76             0.00              0.99
MACAMBILLO             528.00           20.00               81.00           568,615.00    77             0.00              0.99
GASOLINA CASPI             453.00           17.00               70.00           487,846.00    78             0.00              0.99
ANIS MOENA             419.00           16.00               64.00           451,231.00    79             0.00              0.99
SACHAHUACAPU             409.00           16.00               63.00           440,462.00    80             0.00              0.99
FILTRO CASPI             387.00           15.00               60.00           416,769.00    81             0.00              0.99
SACHA MARUPA             369.00           14.00               57.00           397,385.00    82             0.00              0.99
ALMENDRA             351.00           14.00               54.00           378,000.00    83             0.00              1.00
MACHIN SAPOTE             351.00           14.00               54.00           378,000.00    84             0.00              1.00
ZORRO CASPI             346.00           13.00               53.00           372,615.00    85             0.00              1.00
LANZA CASPI             297.00           11.00               46.00           319,846.00    86             0.00              1.00
HUAMANZAMANA             287.00           11.00               44.00           309,077.00    87             0.00              1.00
MOJARRA CASPI             287.00           11.00               44.00           309,077.00    88             0.00              1.00
CESAR GRANDEZ             272.00           10.00               42.00           292,923.00    89             0.00              1.00
CUMACEBA             231.00             9.00               36.00           248,769.00    90                 -                1.00
SHIMBILLO BLANCO             216.00             8.00               33.00           232,615.00    91                 -                1.00
HUACAPURANA             182.00             7.00               28.00           196,000.00    92                 -                1.00
PARAGUILLA CASPI             179.00             7.00               28.00           192,769.00    93                 -                1.00
CHARICHUELO             172.00             7.00               26.00           185,231.00    94                 -                1.00
SHIRINGA NEGRO              104.00             4.00               16.00           112,000.00    95                 -                1.00
QUINILLA NEGRA               95.00             4.00               15.00           102,308.00    96                 -                1.00
SACHA TAMARA               95.00             4.00               15.00           102,308.00    97                 -                1.00
BOA CASPI               80.00             3.00               12.00             86,154.00    98                 -                1.00
YESCA CASPI               80.00             3.00               12.00             86,154.00    99                 -                1.00
CHULLACHAQUI CASPI               68.00             3.00               10.00             73,231.00    100                 -                1.00
SACHA CACAO               59.00             2.00                 9.00             63,538.00    102                 -                1.00

[SwampDonkey]

That's just a summary Jim.

I guess that must be all they gave ya. If it were me, I woulda demanded the cruise tally because I like to look under the hood. :D

Why? Because I've seen lots of nice creative writing, but sometimes the cruise was worthless. Of course that would be mighty presumptive of me, not having been down in your jungle. But trees can only grow so tall with their girth and shallow root system. :D

[jim king]

The bigger spread sheets and PDF file will not post here.  I cannot do more without your cooperation.

[SwampDonkey]

Don't cut and paste just read and type a half dozen pair of numbers. Diameter with it's height estimate.  It's too easy, that's it. ;) :D

[jim king]

This is the best I can do.  Here is only the second forestry inventory I have seen in the Peruvian Amazon were the people actually went into the jungle to make the inventory.  This is an unusual area of up to 06 meters above the high river mark that was to be made into a palm oil plantation about 25 years ago.  It was clear cut and has since returned to what looks like virgen jungle.  My wife and I lived there over three years.

This gives the dia. etc.  Maybe there is someone who can put this in columns as it was here.

      VOLUMEN DE MADERA POR CLASE DIAMÉTRICA Y CLASE DE ALTURA COMERCIAL                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Bosque Tipo A: Machimango Blanco - Cachimbo - Cumala Blanca                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
ESPECIES            PRECIO DE MADERA US. $    POR P2  1X12X12                                          VOLUMEN DE MADERA  /Ha  (m/Ha)                  
            MERCADO   MERCADO   PRECIO EN   VENEER   OTROS   CLASE DIAMETRICA                                    CLASE DE ALTURA (m)         
No.   NOMBRE COMUN   NOMBRE CIENTIFICO   FAMILIA   EXPORT   LOCAL   TROZAS   EXPORT      25-34   33-44   45-54   55-64   65-74   75-84   85-97   95-104   105-124   115-124   125   TOTAL   3m-7m   8m-12m   13m-17m   18m
1   Acero Caspi   Cosmibuena grandifora   Rubiaceae      0.35   0.15         0.28   0.45   0.39   0.08   0.02   0.06   0.05               1.33   0.53   0.65   0.12   0.03
2   Aceite Caspi   Didymopanax Morototoni   Araliaceae   1.00   0.35   0.15         0.02   0.06   0.06                           0.14   0.01   0.03   0.07   0.03
3   Achiote Caspi   Bixa arborea   Bixaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.02   0.03   0.02                           0.07   0.01   0.04   0.02   
4   Alcanfor Moena   Ocatea costulata   Lauraceae   1.00   0.35   0.15         0.02   0.03   0.03   0.04                        0.12      0.03   0.09   
5   Almendro   Caryocar amigdaliforum   Caryocaraceae   1.00   0.35   0.15         0.03   0.09   0.40   0.64   0.56   0.31   0.21            0.36   2.60   0.16   1.07   0.63   0.74
6   Ana Caspi   Cynometrea sp.   Caesalpinaceae   1.00   0.35   0.15                           0.06               0.06   0.01   0.05      
7   Andiroba   Carapa guianenis   Meliaceae   0.80   0.35   0.15   X         0.04   0.04         0.07                  0.15   0.01   0.14      
8   Añuje Caspi   Swartzia polyphilla   Leguminosae      0.35   0.15         0.37   0.57   0.93   1.51   1.67   1.83   1.10   0.43   0.40   0.29   0.24   9.34   0.25   2.04   4.07   2.98
9   Apacharama   Licania elatum   Chrysobalanaceae      0.35   0.15         0.09   0.08   0.03      0.03                     0.23   0.07   0.12   0.04   
10   Ayahuma   Courupita peruviana   Lecythidaceae      0.35   0.15   X         0.01   0.04         0.09                  0.14   0.01      0.13   
11   Azucar Huayo   Hymenea palustris   Caesalpinaceae   0.80   0.35   0.15         0.12   0.26   0.25   0.10      0.08                  0.81   0.03   0.23   0.51   0.04
12   Balata   Manilkara bidentata   Sapotaceae                  0.01   0.01      0.06                        0.08      0.08      
13   Brea Caspi   Symphonia globulifera   Clusiaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01                                 0.01   0.01         
14   Cacahuillo   Theobroma mariso   Sterculiaceae            X      0.01      0.02   0.03   0.03                     0.09   0.01   0.08      
15   Cacao Caspi            0.35   0.15   X    1.50    0.01   0.02                              0.03   0.03         
16   Cachimbo   Couratari sp.   Lecythidaceae   0.80   0.35   0.15   X      0.96   2.81   2.39   1.90   1.71   1.02   0.36   0.50   0.17         11.82   0.61   3.87   4.85   2.49
17   Caimitillo   Lucuma caimito   Sapotaceae   1.00   0.35   0.15         0.01                                 0.01   0.01         
18   Capínuri   Rudgea cephalanta   Rubiaceae      0.35   0.25         0.01   0.04   0.03                           0.08      0.02   0.03   0.03
19   Carahuasca   Guatteria sp.   Annonaceae   0.55   0.35   0.15   X      0.7   0.66   0.47   0.14   0.21   0.04      0.25            2.47   0.35   0.85   0.69   0.58
20   Carbon Caspi                      1.50    0.01   0.01                              0.02   0.02         
21   Cascarilla   Cinchona officinalis   Rubiaceae      0.35            0.29   0.55   0.41   0.30   0.17   0.10   0.08               1.90   0.32   1.20   0.31   0.07
22   Cascarilla Blanca   Cinchona pubescens   Rubiaceae            X      0.06   0.04                              0.40   0.02   0.08      
23   Cascarilla Colorada   Chinchona sp.   Rubiaceae      0.35   0.15   X         0.01                              0.01      0.01      
24   Casho Huayo   Carpotroche parvifolia   Flacourtaceae      0.35   0.15         0.02   0.05   0.03   0.04   0.13                     0.27   0.03   0.05   0.09   0.10
25   Caucho Masha   Saquium marmieri   Euphorbiaceae      0.35   0.15   X               0.05               0.18         0.23         0.05   0.18
26   Cetico   Cecropia sp.   Moraceae      0.35      X      0.23   0.10   0.03                           0.36   0.11   0.23   0.02   
27   Cepanchina   Sloanea laurifolia   Tiliaceae      0.35   0.15         0.15   0.22                              0.37   0.02   0.22   0.13   
28   Copal   Protium sp   Burceacae      0.35   0.15   X      0.20   0.19   0.19   0.05   0.04      0.09               0.76   0.13   0.26   0.34   0.03
29   Cumala Blanca   Virola sp.   Myristicaceae   0.55   0.35   0.30   X      1.88   2.63   1.86   0.87   0.57   0.62   0.03   0.15   0.23   0.19      9.03   1.04   3.6   2.85   1.54
30   Cumala Colorada   Iryanthea sp.   Myristicaceae   0.55   0.35   0.30   X      0.40   0.52   0.20   0.08      0.14                  1.34   0.16   0.69   0.42   0.07
31   Cumaru/Shihuahuaco   Dipterix sp.   Fabaceae   1.00   0.35   0.15            0.01   0.06   0.05      0.07                  0.19   0.05   0.07   0.07   
23   Charapilla   Dipterix micrantha   Papilionaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01   0.01   0.03   0.03      0.07                  0.15      0.15      
33   Charichuelo   Rheedia floribunda   Clusiaceae      0.35   0.15         0.04   0.06   0.03   0.05                        0.18   0.01   0.08   0.09   
34   Chicle   Lacmellea sp.   Apocynaceae      0.35      X      0.01   0.01                              0.02      0.02      
35   Chimicua   Perebea sp.   Moraceae      0.35   0.15         0.38   0.45   0.32   0.18                        1.34   0.15   0.62   0.49   0.08
36   Chontaquiro   Diplotropia martiussii   Papilionaceae      0.35   0.15         0.07   0.12   0.25   0.26                        0.70   0.08   0.16   0.25   0.21
37   Chullachaqui   Swartzia sp.   Caesalpinaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.06   0.02      0.05                        0.13   0.01   0.08   0.04   
38   Espintana   Duguettia sp.   Annonaceae      0.35   0.15         0.07   0.02   0.06      0.03                     0.18   0.03   0.04   0.11   
39   Guacamayo Caspi   Sickingia sp.   Rubiaceae      0.35   0.15         0.02   0.08   0.27   0.53   0.22   0.12   0.60               1.84   0.06   0.30   0.87   0.61
40   Guayaba   Psidium guajaba   Myrtaceae      0.35   0.15         0.20   0.25   0.14   0.02                        0.61   0.32   0.29      
41   Huacapu   Minquartia sp.   Olacaceae      0.35   0.15         0.03   0.02                              0.05   0.01   0.02   0.02   
42   Huamansamana   Jacaranda sp.   Bignoniaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.01   0.01   0.08   0.06                        0.16   0.01   0.01      0.14
43   Huarmi Caspi   Sterculia sp.   Sterculiaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.08   0.13   0.05   0.07                        0.33   0.05   0.12   0.06   0.10
44   Huayra Caspi/Tornillo   Cedrelinga catenaeformis   Mimosaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15               0.02                           0.02      0.02      
45   Huayruro   Ormosia sop.   Caesalpinaceae    0.80       0.15         0.04   0.17   0.05   0.03   0.25   0.09                  0.63   0.01   0.15   0.38   0.09
46   Huimba   Ceiba sp.   Bombacaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.02   0.02   0.04   0.03                        0.11   0.04   0.07      
47   Lagarto Caspi   Callophyllum sp.   Guttiferae      0.35   0.15   X         0.02   0.07                           0.09         0.05   0.04
48   Lanza Caspi            0.35   0.15         0.11   0.11   0.06   0.04                        0.32   0.14   0.18      
49   Leche Caspi   Couma sp.   Moraceae      0.35   0.15         0.10   0.14   0.10   0.03                        0.43   0.03   0.30   0.02   0.08
50   Limoncillo                        0.01                                 0.01      0.01      
51   Loro Micuna   Pseudomenia sp.   Moraceae      0.35   0.15         0.13   0.46   0.49   0.70   0.60   0.88   0.41      0.16         3.83   0.18   1.30   1.82   0.53
52   Lupuna Colorada   Cavanillesia sp.   Bombaceae      0.35   0.45            0.01         0.05   0.11                  0.18      0.01   0.06   0.11
53   Machimango Blanco   Schweilera sp.   Lecythidaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15         2.15   3.65   2.83   1.18   0.80   0.35                  10.97   1.40   4.74   3.56   1.27
54   Maria Buena   Lonchocarpus sp.   Fabaceae      0.35   0.15         0.07   0.15   0.21   0.29   0.07   0.11                  0.90   0.09   0.31   0.24   0.26
55   Mari Mari   Hymenalobium sp.   Leguminosae    0.80    0.35   0.15         0.11   0.42   0.73   1.31   0.84   1.17   0.17   0.69   0.23         5.67   0.11   1.13   2.90   1.53
56   Marupa   Simarouba amara   Simaroubaceae      0.35   0.30   X      0.04   0.17   0.16   0.09   0.04      0.08               0.58   0.06   0.33   0.11   0.08
57   Mashonaste   Clarisia racemosa   Moraceae      0.35   0.15         0.03   0.11   0.18   0.18   0.16   0.07   0.09               0.08   0.08   0.18   0.32   0.24
58   Mentolhuayo   Loretoa peruviana   Rubiaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01      0.01                           0.02      0.02      
59   Mirauba   Mauriria brevipes         0.35   0.15         0.06   0.10   0.10   0.16      0.05                  0.47   0.09   0.35   0.03   
60   Moena   Aniba sp.   Lauraceae    0.80    0.35   0.15         0.25   0.35   0.19   0.06   0.17   0.04   0.11               1.17   0.33   0.49   0.31   0.04
61   Moena Amarilla   Aniba sp.   Lauraceae    0.80    0.35   0.15   X      0.21   0.37   0.30   0.40   0.10   0.19      0.14         0.29   2.00   0.08   0.70   0.78   0.44
62   Moena Cunchi            0.35   0.15         0.03   0.10   0.05   0.05                        0.23   0.06   0.04   0.07   0.06
63   Moena Isma            0.35   0.15         0.07   0.11   0.10   0.06   0.14   0.06                  0.54   0.07   0.40   0.05   0.02
64   Mullaca   Mollia sp.   Meliaceae                  0.14   0.21   0.51   0.88   1.04   1.26   0.63   0.13   0.34   0.25   0.18   5.57   0.16   2.10   1.85   1.46
65   Naranjo Podrido   Parahancornia sp.   Apocynaceae         0.15   X      0.06   0.07   0.28   0.08   0.16                     0.65   0.05   0.19   0.35   0.06
66   Palillo   Campomaesia Lineatifolia   Myrtaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01      0.02                           0.03   0.01   0.02      
67   Palo Ceniza   Neea sp.   Nyctaginaceae                  0.01                                 0.01   0.01         
68   Palo Sangre   Brosimun sp.   Moraceae    1.50    0.35   0.4       1.50       0.03      0.13   0.23         0.11   0.21      0.34   1.05      0.06   0.13   0.86
69   Palta Caspi   Persea sp.   Lauraceae      0.35   0.15         0.01      0.03                           0.04   0.02   0.02      
70   Papelillo   Chimarrhis sp.   Rubiaceae    0.55    0.35   0.15         0.03   0.11   0.17   0.13         0.30               0.74   0.01   0.10   0.36   0.27
71   Parinari   Couepia sp.   Chrysobalanaceae      0.35   0.15         0.80   1.54   1.36   0.47   0.41   0.17   0.07               4.82   0.31   2.00   1.50   1.01
72   Pashaco   Parkia apasifolia   Leguminosae      0.35   0.15   X      0.46   0.95   1.64   1.03   0.73   1.11   0.23   0.43   0.46         7.04   0.25   1.82   2.81   2.16
73   Peine de Mono   Apeiba aspera   Tiliaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01   0.02   0.01   0.05                        0.09   0.01   0.01   0.07   
74   Pichirina   Miconia sp.   Melastomataceae      0.35   0.15         0.02   0.01   0.02                           0.05   0.01   0.04      
75   Piñon   Jatropa sp.   Euphorbiaceae                  0.01   0.03                              0.04   0.01   0.03      
76   Pucaquiro   Sichingia tinctoria   Rubiaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15         0.04   0.13   0.28   0.25   0.06                     0.76   0.03   0.23   0.30   0.20
77   Purma Caspi   Laetia sp.   Flacourtaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01   0.03   0.05                           0.09      0.08   0.01   
78   Quillobordon   Aspidosperma Vargesii   Apocynaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15         0.06   0.02   0.23      0.12                     0.23   0.02   0.04   0.02   0.15
79   Quillosisa   Vochysia venulosa   Vochysiaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.01   0.02   0.02   0.02      0.06                  0.13   0.01   0.12      
80   Quina Quina   Lucuma sp.   Sapotaceae                        0.03                           0.03      0.03      
81   Quinilla Blanca   Lucama sp.   Sapotaceae    1.00    0.35   0.15         1.17   2.31   2.27   2.12   0.94   0.43   0.57   0.53            10.34   1.05   3.46   3.87   1.94
82   Quinilla Colorada   Manilkara sp.   Sapotaceae    1.00    0.35   0.15         0.46   0.90   1.34   0.67   0.37      0.20   0.19            4.13   0.39   1.28   1.66   0.80
83   Remo Caspi   Swartzia sp.   Caesalpinaceae      0.35   0.15         0.01      0.02                           0.03   0.01   0.02      
84   Rifari   Miconia sp.   Melastomataceae      0.35   0.15         0.04   0.06   0.31   0.07   0.08   0.09                  0.65   0.01   0.08   0.40   0.16
85   Sachamango   Gustavia sp.   Lecythidaceae      0.35   0.15               0.01                           0.01   0.01         
86   Shimbillo   Inga sp.   Mimosaceae      0.35   0.15   X      1.54   2.22   1.31   0.83   0.36   0.37   0.10   0.12            6.85   1.18   3.05   1.84   0.78
87   Shiringa   Hevea brasilensis   Euphorbiaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.20   0.24   0.14   0.06   0.11                     0.75   0.18   0.30   0.11   0.16
88   Tamamuri   Ogcodeia sp.   Moraceae      0.35   0.15         0.01                                 0.01   0.01         
89   Tangarana   Triplaris sp.   Polygonaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15   X      0.27   0.50   0.98   0.62   0.46   0.73   0.25   0.40      0.39      4.60   0.17   1.45   1.69   1.29
90   Topa   Ochroma sp.   Bombacaceae      0.35   0.15       0.80    0.01                                 0.01   0.01         
91   Tornillo   Cedrelinga catenaeformis   Caesalpinaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15   X      0.01      0.04   0.13   0.21   0.29   0.42   0.77   0.68   0.70   1.0   4.25      0.20   0.97   3.08
92   Ubilla   Pourouma sp.   Moraceae            X      0.41   0.39   0.16   0.02                        0.98   0.28   0.50   0.10   0.15
93   Ubos   Spondia sp.   Anacardiaceae      0.35   0.15   X         0.01                              0.01      0.01      
94   Uchumullaca   Trichilia sp.   Meliaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.01   0.01                              0.02   0.01   0.01      
95   Ungurahui Caspi   Jessenia Bataua   Palmae      0.35   0.15         0.03   0.06                              0.09   0.05   0.02   0.02   
96   Yacushapana   Terminalia oblonga   Combretaceae    0.80    0.35   0.15         0.11   0.3   0.34   0.62   0.62   0.39   0.24   0.38   0.73      0.76   4.49   0.06   1.17   1.39   1.89
97   Yahuar Huayo            0.35   0.15   X      0.01   0.01   0.01                           0.03   0.03         
98   Yanchama   Poulsenia armata   Moraceae            X   Ropas         0.01                           0.01      0.01      
99   Zapote   Matisia cordata   Bombacaceae      0.35   0.15   X         0.03   0.08                           0.11      0.05   0.03   0.03
100   Zapotillo   Quararibea   Bombacaceae      0.35   0.15   X      0.10   0.11   0.05   0.10                        0.36   0.04   0.10   0.08   0.14
101   Otras Especies                  X      0.06   0.13   0.08   0.09   0.08   0.09                  0.53   0.04   0.10   0.08   0.14
102   Desconocidos                        0.61   1.16   0.87   0.61   0.30   0.28   0.07      0.15         4.05   0.86   1.63   1.22   0.34
   TOTALES                                                                                                     17.07   28.74   27.47   20.78   14.89   13.01   6.52   5.22   3.94   1.82   3.17   142.08   12.81   48.66   49.02   31.91
   PORCENTAJES                                                                                          12.0    20.18   19.30   14.58   10.46   9.17   4.58   3.66   2.76   1.28   2.22   100.00   8.95   34.17   34.51   23.37
                                                                        

[SwampDonkey]

Jim that throws the forum thread width out of whack. Might want to go back and remove all that.  :D The numbers look reasonable I guess for trees 11-15 m³. Looks like the upper height classes in the 30's got cut off though that would have those volumes. ;)

[jim king]

SwampDonkey:

Rather than pull some numbers out of the airfor a few trees here is a description of Purpleheart from a poor growing area.


Peltogyne spp.   
Family: Leguminosae   
 
Purpleheart
Amaranth

 
     






Other Common Names: Palo morado (Mexico), Morado (Panama, Venezuela), Tananeo (Columbia), Koroboreli (Guyana), Purperhart (Surinam), Amarante (French Guiana), Pau roxo, Guarabu (Brazil), Violetwood (English trade).



Distribution: Center of distribution in the north-middle part of the Brazilian Amazon region; combined range of all species from Mexico through Central America and southward to southern Brazil.



The Tree: Trees grow to heights of 170 ft with diameters to 4 ft, but usually 1.5 to 3 ft; boles are straight, cylindrical, and clear 60 to 90 ft above buttresses up to 12 ft. high.



The Wood:

General Characteristics: Heartwood brown when freshly cut becoming deep purple upon exposure, eventually turning to a dark brown sharply demarcated from the off-white sapwood.  Texture medium to fine; luster medium to high, variable; grain usually straight, sometimes wavy, roey, or irregular; without distinctive odor or taste.



Weight: Basic specific gravity (ovendry weight/green volume) varies with species from 0.67 to 0.91; air-dry density 50 to 66 pcf.



Mechanical Properties: (First set of data based on the 2-in.  standard; second on the 2-cm standard; third on the 1-in.  standard.)



Moisture content   Bending strength   Modulus of elasticity   Maximum crushing strength

            (%)                  (Psi)              (1,000 psi)                     (Psi)

Green (75)                   13,690                         2,000                  7,020

12%                             19,220                         2,270                10,320



Green (30)                   21,000                         2,560                  9,250

15%                                         26,700                 NA               12,200



12% (24)                     30,900                         3,460                14,500



Janka side hardness ranges from 1,860 lb to 3,920 lb at 12% moisture content.  Forest Products Laboratory toughness at 12% moisture content ranges from 157 to 398 in.-lb. (5/8-in.  specimen).



Drying and Shrinkage: Reports vary, from air-dries easily to moderately difficult; dries slowly to fairly rapidly; with almost no degrade to some warping and splitting Kiln schedule T6-D2 is suggested for 4/4 stock and T3-D1 for 8/4.  Shrinkage green to ovendry: radial 3.2%; tangential 6.1%; volumetric 9.9%.  Stability after manufacture or movement is rated as small.



Working Properties: Moderately difficult to work with either hand or machine tools, dulls cutters, exudes a gummy resin when heated by dull tools; slow feed rates and specially hardened cutters are suggested.  Turns smoothly, easy to glue, and takes finishes well.



Durability: Heartwood is rated as highly durable in resistance to attack by decay fungi; very resistant to dry-wood termites; but little resistance to marine borers.



Preservation: Heartwood is reported to be extremely resistant to impregnation with preservative oils; sapwood is permeable.



Uses: Turnery, marquetry, cabinets, fine furniture, parquet flooring, tool handles, heavy construction, shipbuilding, many specialty items (billiard cue butts, chemical vats, carving).

[SwampDonkey]

Yup, Jim makes perfect sense and plausible. 

After cogitation on an early assertion on the Sitka spruce, I had to do some editing. We were using 12.25 and 16 BAF's, with a 16 I was pulling in 6-8 trees in a sample. That means I could be within 31.25 meters of a 250 cm count tree. With some of the large cedar, if they were sitting in the right spot, they got counted 4 times on 50 meter grid. Took two 7.5 meter long diameter tapes to wrap around them. :D The cedar in the picture has some of it's girth to the left obscured by shade. You get a clue in the lower left of the trunk opposite of chest height, I'm there leaning in the middle. We had bigger ones on the flat land with salal vines all over. :

[jim king]

Now after researching this I have came across a lot of information about you guys up North and the carbon footprint you are leaving worse than Sasquatch.  We have to get into that next.  8) 8) 8)

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, but one of them spruce was 48-55 m³ , 9-11 mbfm :D The carbon is stored a little further up in them sky scrapers. :D :D I remember a lot of those spruce sites where never logged, which is kinda of nice too because a whole lot of'm was cut before I got there on the BC coast. What saved a lot of them was terrain conditions mostly and critter considerations, which in the past didn't matter as much. Not that they couldn't be accessed, they had the machines to get at any timber, but it was the forest practices regulations that was the obstacle. ;)

[isawlogs]

Swampdonkey .. why dont you message him your email so he can send you the pdf file , then you can come back here and enlighten us with your findings ...

[SwampDonkey]

He showed me all I need to know. ;)