How should I dry & process Scots Pine logs?

[etd66ss]

I'd like to use Scots Pine for my house build, decorative beams, Ceiling T&G and door & window trim.



 

I will be logging the trees in the coming weeks, and intend to start building mid 2022. (I won't be building myself, intend to supply a builder with sawn lumber materials.) My plan is to log the trees, anchor seal the ends, then set the logs on some utility poles and rotate them 180 degrees every couple weeks or so until I can get time on my brothers sawmill (circular, 8in depth of cut), hoping no later than September for the milling. I have a spot that is partially shaded throughout the day where I plan to set up this rack. There will be no roof, just logs laid down on utility poles.

Then the logs would be sawn oversize 1" all sides (see attached pdf), dried further in my 40 ft shipping container with fans and a dehumidifier. Then re-sawn to final size shown in the pdf next spring. I bought the shipping container to store stuff from my house after I move, it's likely I sell my current home before my house build is done, so can the container contain the beams at the same time I have stuff in there for storage, or is that a bad idea for some reason?

I've read that Scots Pine likes to twist, and the logs should be air dried before milling to help reduce that. I plan to saw oversized because I assume they will move after milling, then re-saw before use.

Thing is, I do plan to build a solar kiln, but decided to build a smaller one, so will not be able to fit these beams. So these beams will never get to a low moisture content. Will Scots Pine cause me fits when the final finish size timbers have been in a finished house's humidity for a while? Will not setting the pitch be an issue? Insects? 

For the T&G boards and general trim, I will use the solar kiln to dry the rough cut. I've read that 160 degrees is required to set the pitch in pine so it stops oozing.

#1) Does what I plan make any sense or am I way off base? Should I be doing something different?

#2) I chose Scots pine because I have nice canopy trees that are over 80ft tall to use for this endeavor, many Scots Pine have died and fallen over the last few years so I'd like to make use of the live ones before they meet their natural end. Also, I like the look of Scots Pine wood vs. Norway Spruce. Is Scots Pine a good or bad choice for this?

#3) The first thing I would abandon on this project is the T&G, I have a relative with the equipment to mill it, but not sure it could be done in time, would just buy knotty pine T&G for the ceiling, hoping lumber prices are calmer about 12 months from now, plus it would be a lot less logging.  

#4) I have enough Norway Spruce trees that would work for all this timber & lumber, but would prefer to keep those trees in the forest. Would Spruce work better than pine for any reason?

 

[alan gage]

I've only milled a little scots pine. It behaved pretty well while drying, especially considering how knotty the tree was. I would not attempt to air dry the logs before sawing. I don't think that's ever a good idea.

It's quite pitchy and unless you do a kiln sterilization to set the pitch you might find it difficult to work with and almost impossible to sand. It might tend to leak some pitch when the house warms up too if the pitch isn't set first.

The wood wood will look and feel good until you run it through a planer or make a fresh cut and then you can feel the tackiness on the surface from the pitch.

Alan

[etd66ss]

Hmm, thought I read somewhere on this site it was best to let logs dry a bit fist if you want to use them as pith centeted beams. I'll have to find that thread.

[alan gage]

Hmm, thought I read somewhere on this site it was best to let logs dry a bit fist if you want to use them as pith centeted beams. I'll have to find that thread.

I've never heard that advice given, always the opposite. Logs don't generally dry well. If you've ever looked at an old utility pole you'll see one, and sometimes more, deep cracks that run all the way from the outside to the pith. If you've ever tried to recover lumber from a utility pole (or other dried log) you have to work around these cracks and they ruin quite a bit of the lumber. Dried logs are more difficult to saw (harder) also.
There's also the old saying, "Lumber dries, logs rot"
If if you let those logs sit for a year before sawing the lumber will still be wet and will still move as it dries. The only difference is you'll be dealing with the degrade from letting the logs sit for a year.
Alan

[etd66ss]

Hmm, thought I read somewhere on this site it was best to let logs dry a bit fist if you want to use them as pith centeted beams. I'll have to find that thread.

I've never heard that advice given, always the opposite. Logs don't generally dry well. If you've ever looked at an old utility pole you'll see one, and sometimes more, deep cracks that run all the way from the outside to the pith. If you've ever tried to recover lumber from a utility pole (or other dried log) you have to work around these cracks and they ruin quite a bit of the lumber. Dried logs are more difficult to saw (harder) also.
There's also the old saying, "Lumber dries, logs rot"
If if you let those logs sit for a year before sawing the lumber will still be wet and will still move as it dries. The only difference is you'll be dealing with the degrade from letting the logs sit for a year.
Alan

I am in the process of pulling out dead standing and fallen Spruce, yes, very deep cracks & checks on the ones where the bark has fallen off. I've never run the sawmill myself but yes, brother has told me that the deep cracks can cause a wedging effect and the circular blade sometime loses a tooth if it wedges hard enough. But I know I read it somewhere, the advice was only for large timbers, not boards.
These logs would sit for a couple months at most, not a year. Logistically, I can't do one at a time as I fell each tree... I will log until I have about 20-25 suitable logs then transport them and saw. 

[btulloh]

Cold weather or at least cool weather would be better if the logs have to sit around for a while. 

[etd66ss]

What type of degredation are we talking about? We are milling spruce trees right now that have been dead for a few years, some were fallen with a bit of rot on the outside, but we're still getting good lumber.  Now, this is being used as 2X material, not finish lumber for beams and trim.

I really have no choice but to start logging now if I want beams, trim & T&G panelling, ready for building a house next spring. If I wait until fall/winter I would have to put off the house build.

If the logs were to sit in shade during July & August, I'm not risking rot, so what would be the degredation, cracking? Won't they ultimately crack and check after being installed in the home?

Also, if I immediately peel off the bark after felling before skidding out of the woods, is there a way to seal the entire log and not just the ends, would that help?

[Don P]

In the heat bluestain is going to take hold in the sapwood. If the bark is on pine borers will move in, with it debarked at this time of year there will still be some insect damage because there is a fresh wet food source. Debarking will initiate checking.

There is no advantage to letting logs sit for lumber, boards or beams, just the way it is. Winter is a better time to harvest and saw pine, the surface will be dry before the heat is on so it won't blue, insects are dormant. It would be better to let the logs dry before final sizing if final fit is critical. It would be better to set the pitch if final finish is critical. Sure, you can do whatever you must. Much as we wish otherwise our schedules do not change how wood behaves.

Storing household goods with drying lumber will impede drying and destroy the household stuff, those need to be separate containers.

[etd66ss]

So the blueing of pine happens even without bark? I thought that fungus came from the bark.

[etd66ss]

So, now I am re-thinking the Scots pine usage. If my kiln is too small to dry the beams and set the pitch, should I not use Scots pine for the beams?

Other species I have in large enough trees for these beams are norway spruce, silver & red maple, poplar or ash.

[Don P]

The spores surround us, if conditions are right... heat, oxygen, moisture and sugar, it is going to infect. I've got fans on a stack of sawn pine someone needed this time of year, if it doesn't start drying fast it'll blue.

I see nothing wrong with your plan, everything is a tradeoff, poplar does check heavily in large dimension. 

[etd66ss]

The spores surround us, if conditions are right... heat, oxygen, moisture and sugar, it is going to infect. I've got fans on a stack of sawn pine someone needed this time of year, if it doesn't start drying fast it'll blue.

I see nothing wrong with your plan, everything is a tradeoff, poplar does check heavily in large dimension.

For what I am going to want out of these beams (dimensionally stable, no oozing), it seems they would need to be kiln dried.

[Tamarack]

Up here mills will only buy pine logs if the month has a R in it.

[etd66ss]

Up here mills will only buy pine logs if the month has a R in it.

As in Jurly?  :D

[Don P]

I'm not meaning to send you in one direction or another just kicking around the pros and cons.

Dimensionally stable would mean anything needs to be pretty dry. So pitch set is the only difference. Look up the shrinkage values on the species you are thinking about, I suspect the pine and spruce are going to be lowest which translates into tighter fits if moisture is off. Maple isn't going to stay as bright this time of year either, ash might be worth considering. Beam strengths and dimensions required also play into all this.

If this is going into a container you could dry as long as possible, use heaters to run up the temp at the end of cycle and the pitch will be set to whatever wood temp you achieve. At the end of that I would turn the DH back on for a bit as the high temp will mobilize more core moisture and you will be able to get a little more out easily at that point, then final surfacing. 

[etd66ss]

I'm not meaning to send you in one direction or another just kicking around the pros and cons.

Dimensionally stable would mean anything needs to be pretty dry. So pitch set is the only difference. Look up the shrinkage values on the species you are thinking about, I suspect the pine and spruce are going to be lowest which translates into tighter fits if moisture is off. Maple isn't going to stay as bright this time of year either, ash might be worth considering. Beam strengths and dimensions required also play into all this.

If this is going into a container you could dry as long as possible, use heaters to run up the temp at the end of cycle and the pitch will be set to whatever wood temp you achieve. At the end of that I would turn the DH back on for a bit as the high temp will mobilize more core moisture and you will be able to get a little more out easily at that point, then final surfacing.

Ok, so made this chart:


 
Surprised that Silver Maple and Cottonwood look like good options on paper. I just happen to not like the look of those woods, especially the greenish hue poplar has sometimes.
These beams will be 100% decorative only. They probably should be faux beams then, but I kind of like the look of real timbers.
So lets say I do wait until October to fell the trees, The logs sit on utility poles 1 foot off the ground for a month or two before sawn. Then the sawn beams are placed into a shipping container in lets say December. When do I have to add heat and a dehumidifier? And how much heat are we talking about? Electric space heaters or do I need something more substantial like a wood burning stove?

[Don P]

I would leave them outside in a stack under scrap tin in a breezy location as long as humanly possible, that is going to dry them faster than an enclosed container in the early stages. We have one load of green from the saw white pine lumber in the kiln trying to run it through as fast as possible. The next load is in the yard under cover with fans on it trying to get a jump on air drying and keep it from sapstaining. High airflow is your friend. If the air stagnates, the rh around the pile rises and fungus goes wild. Keep wiping that damp air off the wood with breeze or fans.

Then a couple of months before the contractor needs them put the stickered stack in the container and throw the dh to them. A typical dh will throw its thermal overload somewhere around 120°F, add auxillary heat if needed and stay just under it's trip point. If you dry with a DH you need to be able to seal the container well or you are just dehumidifying the world rather than a little chamber. Some box fans will move the air around so the dh see's the air from all of the stack. When any part of the wood is below ~28" shrinkage begins. From there on down you can begin to pitch set, the drier the better before you turn off the dh, turn on aux heat and run the chamber temp up. When it cools back below the dh thermal overload I'd turn it back on until the contractor calls for the beams. That's a perfect world but one way to help avoid runs and major dimensional change.

[etd66ss]

High airflow is your friend.

When adding fans to help air dry, a fan on one end of the stack? Tin on top, anything on the sides to make a wind tunnel or just leave the sides open?

I've seen people put tin on top and something like this on the sides: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-4-ft-x-100-ft-Matrix-Grid-Landscape-Fabric-VPNM410085/302802172

[Don P]

Leave the sides open and blow across from side to side through the sticker spaces. Set up the piles so the prevailing wind blows across and through them. Only cover the top, keep the sides wide open, back to high airflow for most softwoods. Start the pile a good foot or more off the ground and keep it well mowed so the air is moving well even down low. If the air stagnates in or around the pile the humidity will be close to 100%, do everything you can to keep the air moving. Moisture rises to the surface of the wood from the core and you want to keep whisking it off the surface so it can keep doing that as rapidly as possible. Heat is what mobilizes the moisture and drives it out of the wood, airflow is what gets rid of that moisture.

This is a good read;
Air Drying Of Lumber

For heavy timber saw out 2x2 stickers to get more air between the beams and leave space around them on all sides. The section starting on pg 49 gets into bluestain, the chemical stain in summertime maple and some of the other degrades we were talking about but the whole document is good reading.

[etd66ss]

Leave the sides open and blow across from side to side through the sticker spaces. Set up the piles so the prevailing wind blows across and through them. Only cover the top, keep the sides wide open, back to high airflow for most softwoods. Start the pile a good foot or more off the ground and keep it well mowed so the air is moving well even down low. If the air stagnates in or around the pile the humidity will be close to 100%, do everything you can to keep the air moving. Moisture rises to the surface of the wood from the core and you want to keep whisking it off the surface so it can keep doing that as rapidly as possible. Heat is what mobilizes the moisture and drives it out of the wood, airflow is what gets rid of that moisture.

This is a good read;
Air Drying Of Lumber

For heavy timber saw out 2x2 stickers to get more air between the beams and leave space around them on all sides. The section starting on pg 49 gets into bluestain, the chemical stain in summertime maple and some of the other degrades we were talking about but the whole document is good reading.

Thanks for the document. Plan is to stack/sticker on top of a shipping container to get away from the ground.

[cabindoc]

I agree with everything that DonP said.  Think of it this way.  Run through mill to get bark off (or draw knife). let air dry.   mill to a size 1" larger than you ultimately need, dehim these and set pitch as DonP outlined.  Then when u need them, run through mill again to straighten out any twist and to get to your final size and finish them if your not planning on RS look.  Pine is your best bet for deco rafters.  Light and doesn't move as much.