Basswood

[Buzz-sawyer]

Trouble is that thr D.A  may say since you had a verbal cotract that , 155 Does not apply....Unless they go with the intent to defraud and theft by deception,.....larceny as you pointed out....
(Timber theft can be prosecuted as a felony, depending upon the amount of timber stolen. Article 155 of the State Penal Law classifies the theft of property with a value exceeding $1,000 as grand larceny, fourth degree, a Class E felony punishable by up to four years in jail and a fine of up to $5,000, or double the gain from the commission of the crime.

Other charges commonly filed against timber thieves include criminal mischief, third degree, also a Class E felony, and criminal trespass, a Class B misdemeanor punishable by a maximum fine of $500 and up to three months in jail. )


You can call DEC law enforcement at 1-800-TIPP-DEC.

 DEC's Bureau of Environmental Conservation Investigations

[victorytea]

HE PAID! It's over- the logger called me at work today from my buddies place. Said he called me but I was never home, he was a digit off in his dialing. Although I am unhappy with the job, I am going to put this all in the past and move on. He gave my friend the money and it is within  the range he quoted me-also the paperwork.  My good friend and I cut firewood every Friday and will begin the cleanup then.  I wish to thank all of you guys for the wonderful support- I have learned so much from you and will be far more diligent and thorough in the future. Thanks for sticking with me and not just writing me off as a naive idiot.  One thing that comforted me throughout this ordeal was the fact that there were intelligent, sympathetic, experienced men willing to help me( a complete stranger)- out.  My hat is off to all who participated.
Now I have to get over to the "Raising a Child When you're too Old" forum.    High Regards
                       Paul

[Buzz-sawyer]

Hey , nothin says you cant still check in with us.............. 8) 8) 8)

[OneWithWood]

Paul,
Methinks you could get a lot of help raising that child right here.  Raising a child will prevent many old age symptons I am told - though I was never brave enough to try it :D a bunch of our members have tons of experience in that regard.

[bitternut]

Well victorytea I have a hunch that maybe the guy paid up because of New Yorks new timber theft law. According to an article in the latest issue of The New York Forest Owner a Steuben County ordered a woodland owner  to make restitution of $42,561.96 to his neighbor for timber theft. The approximate 173 trees had a fair market stumpage value of $14,187.32. Apparently the new law has some big teeth in it.

I would suggest that if you want to sell timber in the future you have a forester mark and conduct the sale. You might also consider becoming a member of NYFOA. They are a big help to forest owners.

[SwampDonkey]

VictoryTea:

First off, I just want to make clear I'm completely nuetral on this and no flaming please. ;)

I know from your posts that you were dissatisfied with the job the contractor did. I think the main reason he worked a bit too fast was the size of the job. To be quite honest it would be very difficult to do a small job without the contractor going behind. A small job to me is under 10 acres of woodland. Anyone locally I've ever talked with has always said that they go behind going to small job sites for group selection or spacing work. If its a clear cut, then they will profit. Some small job sites include tree removal around edges of fields or islands of wood in fields that grew up around rock piles. Just alot of travel and hardly enough of one species to separate out,  such as spruce from poplar. I know its hard for the landowner sometimes to get small jobs done, but if you were in good with a neighbor with a winch equiped tractor, and time to do it yourself, you'de get greater satisfaction and there would be no urgency to get the job done quick and move on. If you need fast cash then this equipment isn't going to provide it. ;) You'de also learn quick why professional contractors seem to move a bit quick on these sites. My cousin cut a little bit of diseased hardwood and poplar from his sugar bush with a winch and tractor and he also had a wake up call, when he realized the production needed to make aliving and pay expenses. In his case the wood was recovered for firewood for his father and himself. He managed to recover about 3000 feet of logs from the butts of a few trees. Personally, I think the guy provided a favor and I wouldn't be in a hurry to point fingers and accuse the man of wood theft. Is the fellow a local contractor? If so he's trying to make a living, and although we would like our money yesterday, I think a little patients is in order. As you've learned through this experience a work contract would put you a little more at ease, but 2 weeks isn't that long. If your in dire straights, it seems like an eternity. ;)

Ok, I'm done. ;D

cheers

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well stated, and I agree the whole situation is completelydifferent with a different perspective............I have been on both sides of this, the waiter, and the contractor........being falsely accused of ripping off........when I took the job as a favor in the first place..........while waiting though the mind starts to playt tricks on us!!!

[victorytea]

You guys are right on.  I'm so emotionally attached to my land, I can honestly say, my thinking was not quite right.  I would like to believe, however, that I never absolutely accused him of theft but rather was preparing for the possibility.  Now I'll reread the posts and see if that ( is even) correct.   Paul

[Oldtimer]

I am with swampdonkey.

36 basswood trees? For 1000-1500 bucks to you? He was in a hurry so he wouldn't lose money. I am surprised you made that much on 36 basswoods and a few Hard maples. The barking of the leave trees is regretable, but hard to avoid. Hopefully, he picked less valuable (pulp) trees to bump.

[Jeff]

Why surprise at that figure? If there were any hard maple veneer in the equation there is a possibility to get that much just from a couple 3 or 4 trees.  Barking up trees certainly is avoidable if care is taken and if unavoidable the trees need to be evaluated

[Oldtimer]

Must be veneer Maple and big Basswood I guess. But here, Basswood is rarely found bigger than 12" dbh, and Veneer Hard maple is scarce as hens teeth. I estimated in my head from what I would see for that number of trees here. Actually, -here- I'd consider it a general tree job and want the wood for the job. 40 trees isn't logging. Being required to cut the wood short to avoid rubbing leave trees would be great, but I'd have to be realistic - some trees will get rubbed. Gotta break eggs to make a cake. This is exactly the kind of job I try to avoid unless they agree to my terms with no reservations.

[victorytea]

Looking at the receipt from the mill he took the logs to- there was a total of 8037'.  7 maples,2 hickorys and 3 ash trees- the rest basswood.  The basswood here in NY grows much bigger than 12", I believe all he took were well over 20". My buddy finally met up with this guy at a local bar, told him how angy I was and convinced him to come to his house  (where he had my work #) and give me a call.  I still don't know what his intentions were.  He said he tried to call me but I was never home- then volunteered the # he was calling and it was a convenient 1 digit off.  How could he be one digit off when I was calling every day and leaving my phone #.  I took my work # and home # to his house and left it.  He didn't have any problem dialing my # when he called about the job.  My wife said, many times, that I'm too trusting- well, no more.  I know loggers are a different breed but when I give a man enough trust to come on my property and cut trees decades, maybe a century old, he could ,at least, honor his word by being there when he said he will be there.  I have 22 pictures of scraped, mostly maturing trees.  At the landing there were two 8' high blue spruce and a 18' larch tree way off to the side.  I asked to  please not bugger these up and he said not to worry.  Next day I noted one spruce uprooted, one scraped and the larch knocked to about 8' in height.  The stream that they crossed with the skidder became dammed up- he said " I'll push that out" (with the skidder)- didn't happen. My buddy and I will clean up the mess and life is too short to dwell on this.  I wish I had done what swampdonkey (I believe) said and cut the logs myself with the aid of a big tractor.  I,m sure that would have been a much more positive learning experience.  Anyways, I will put some of the money back into the land (seedlings) and the rest will go to a new floor for the expected young 'un to crawl on.  Life is still good and I want to thank you guys again for your valuable opinions and advise.        Paul

[SwampDonkey]

You folks sure have some nice big hardwood down your way. I've seen lotsa nice stands of wood through Virginia, NC, GA and TN. I walk in those stands and see $$ signs. I was in parks most the time, but a couple of private woodlots too. I'de have to agree that your average diameters down there on hardwood are bigger than up this way. In old growth hardwood up here that have a few 20 + inch dbh maple and yellow birch, they are hollow inside 90 % of the time. I was just out on the weekend to a private woodlot owned by a big forest company up here and all the big sugar maple and yellow birch had either red belted conk growing out the side or deep crevases in the wood that you could slip your hand inside. In other words, natural culverts. The area we were in was on a big hill which was an overlook that you could see a small lake and hills that were  near my home (35 miles away.) If we don't capture hardwood before its 20 inches in dbh its pulpwood or culls. I hate to make that generality but I've been on alot of woodlots and crown lands. Well mangaed and healthy hardwood up here average about 8-10 inches but the range is 4 inches to 22 inches, generally.

Just wanted to mention that we also have basswood up here and it mostly grows of very moist loamy soils, so there is usually water near-by. Again your tree sizes are well above average for my area. We get the odd 20 or 24 inch tree but they average 8 or 10 inches. Probably because its an uncommon tree here and most has been pulped over the last 30 years and before that it would be used in muldings or for fall stovewood. There is really no significant market for it except a few small wood working shops or craftshops that have very little demand for it. In other words if I had a full load of it, it probably would spoil before it got marketed.

8000 feet for your trees was a full load wasn't it? That's worth nearly $3000 CDN for lower grades and up to $6500 for #1. Mid grade veneer would fetch nearly $10,000 CDN, smaller Veneer is worth about the same as #1 sawlogs if I remember correctly, but they will take shorter pieces (down to 4'4"). Basswood wouldn't be veneer.

Have a look here at some of our local market prices for comparisons. $1 USD = $1.36 CDN

http://www.cvwpa.ca

Columbia Forest Products and Calley and Currie , both in Maine, buy most our Veneer and they hire the trucking.

Its unfortunate about the tree damage on your woodlot and the mess in the creak, but again I'll reiterate that the size of the job will have a big impact on the results. This guy may not specialize in group selection or thinning operations either. As the old saying goes, 'Haste lays to waste'. ;)

cheers

[Ron Scott]

The size of the stand shouldn't make any difference as to the care and quality job given by the logger in his operation. Best management practices should "always" be used.

There's no excuse for slash and debris left in a stream and excessive damage to the residual trees.

I agree, get the right logger for the job and know before hand if they plan to "short wood" or "tree length". The area should be planned accordingly for the best results.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes I agree with Ron , that Best Management Practices should be adhered to when logging. Running skidders through creeks is forbidden with the 'Clean Water Act', or similar legislation in different states, and no machine is allowed within 50 feet of a stream bank and even then there is a 100 foot buffer that you can only take 30 % of the basal area from. Also, one needs a permit to work near watercourses. The NB federation of woodlot owners has produced a information binder and a course on 'Best Management Practices'. But, sadly very few big contractors ever attend. What I observed was the weekend cutter or woodlot owner attending. I know it is hard to entice some folks in for such a course. Some are busy, some don't care and some may not even know about it. There hasn't been all that great cummunications from the local assocation and their Newsletter is always late with the news or doesn't get out on a regular basis. Not all Associations are lacking however and they put on good courses. Here it is half way through the year and I only recieved one newsletter which was 6 months behind in its info, when I should have 3 by now. : It used to be bi-monthly. I will add that I've observed some pretty messy work from woodlot owners too. Just two weeks ago I cruised a woodlot and the guy that owns it has been running his machines through the creeks and falling the slash and tops onto the creek. What a jungle. Sadly, this owner was nearly killed this spring when a logded tree gave way and struck another cut piece, which in turn threw the guy 40 feet from where he was standing. He was also working in the creek again. :