Ceramic Guides vs. Roller Guides

[Taproots84]

My Norwood HD36 came with ceramic blade guides. I have no complaints. Norwood offers a fairly inexpensive "upgrade" to roller guides. I am seriously considering changing to rollers, but need to be assured that it is actually and upgrade. Are roller guides better? Thanks! 

[Magicman]

You are asking for hands on experience rather than opinions.  There may be a very limited number of sawyers who actually have any experience with ceramic vs roller guides. 

Hopefully some Norwood owners/sawyers will see this and respond.

[thecfarm]

Good to see you posting.
I take it you are not having trouble with your guides. 

[YellowHammer]

I don't on a Norwood, but all things being equal, band guides that roll will outperform band guide that rub.  I personally would switch, and the fact that the rollers don't cost much would be a bonus.   

[barbender]

 I've never used ceramic guides. A couple of things I've wondered about with them- first, can they be set up to apply down pressure to the blade, without creating excessive friction and heat? My Woodmizer is set up with ¼" down pressure (or deflection, stated another way), which gives a lot of stability to the band in the cut.

 Second, I wonder if the ceramic guides don't actually outperform rollers as far as keeping the blade clean? Regular rollers pack the sawdust and pitch onto the blade as you're cutting, often requiring water or solvents (a lot of us use diesel) to keep the blade clean in pitchy woods. Whereas, I think ceramic guides would scrape the blade off, by their very nature...maybe I need to add a ceramic scraper block to my guides?🤔😊

[fluidpowerpro]

I've read on here numerous times people saying to get rid of ceramic guides and replace them with rollers so I would suspect people are partial to those. 
I only have experience with ceramic guides (Hudson mills) and they have always worked well for me.
I might be mistaken but I think Woodmizer offers a guide upgrade that are actually ceramic. I dont know if they are used in addition to the rollers or replace them. 
My guides, when set correctly dont touch the blade when not running so they are not intended to impart any force on the blade. If during a cut the blade start to wander, thats when it will contact the guide. 
On a related subject, often discussed is the use of a Blade guide alignment tool, or as Yellowhammer calls it a "BGAT". I only mention it because on the Hudson guides, there is no way to adjust the blade level with the mill. The plane of the blade is only based on the alignment of the band wheels. 

I suspect if you go to roller guides, this adjustment becomes necessary.

If you have no complaints, why change?

[fluidpowerpro]

One more thought......
Recently I watched one of YH's videos about the importance of your guide arm being solid with no play. This is based on using roller guides. 
Are the Norwood guide arms heavy duty enough for roller guides? If they are set to impart a load on the blade, they need to be, where as with ceramic guides, they probably dont have to be as strong.

[SawyerTed]

Is current performance, with the ceramic guides, somehow of poor quality that roller guides will improve?  Will the expense and time involved provide a noticeable return on the investment?

If it's not broken, don't fix it.  If you are sawing enough lumber, it might be worth the upgrade.  Sometimes "good enough" is. 

With that said, there's a reason ceramic guides aren't standard on higher end mills - longevity of roller guides and bearings.  I remember when vertical shop bandsaws had graphite guides instead of roller guides.  They worked well enough. 

[KenMac]

A search using "Norwood roller guides" presente me with several threads on the subject. The best may be from PatrickNC.

[Magicman]

That search produced 36 different Norwood topics.  Lotsa reading. 

[Larry]

If it's not broken, don't fix it.

I agree with Ted.

It really helps to understand how bands track. In the WM roller guide system the roller guide takes the vibration out of the band caused by in-precise components by using down pressure. They are also used to keep the band in alignment by twisting the band. The down pressure eliminates the need for a bottom roller, and the flange eliminates the need for a back up bearing. Cheap, but works great.

In a precision, system the band is tracked by using precision wheels along with a precise crown on the wheel. The guides only come in play with a catastrophic failure, IE the band hits steel, a hard knot, or is excessively dull. Usually on the big mills running 6" and bigger bands. Most shop bandsaws are similar. May or may not use roller bearings for guides.

Not familiar with Norwood so it may do something different or anything between the two.

[booman]

Not familiar with ceramic guides but I was not aware that Woodmizer offered ceramic guides.  News to me.

[scsmith42]

Tom the Baker band mill came with Baker's bullet guides.  These are metal rods that are clamped into a guide holder, that support the band.  I didn't care much for them because I was constantly having to readjust them.

I upgraded them by replacing the metal dowels with ceramic dowels.  This increased the timespan between guide adjustments, but I still did not like how they worked.  For one thing, the rear guides were creating heat at the back of the band, which caused wavy cuts.

So I purchased a set of roller guides from Cooks and retrofitted them to the mill.  I've been greatly pleased by the improved performance.  Guide adjustments last much longer now, and wavy cuts have been greatly reduced.

Whereas Baker used two smaller guides on top and bottom, versus Norwood's single guide, Irrespective of the design I think that roller guides are a superior design, for the following reason.

Bands are designed with some tension along the cutting edge of the band.  If you open up a new band and lay it on the floor with the cutting edge up, you will notice that the blade is not 100% perpendicular to the floor; rather it leans to one side.  This is because the cutting edge of the band is slightly narrower circumference than the back edge.  When the band is in the cut, the cutting edge heats up due to friction, and expands.  This makes the band true as it's cutting and reduces wavy cuts and increases band longevity.

Here is an example of what I'm addressing above.  In the example a straight edge is placed next to some raw band coil stock.  See how the band curves towards the tooth side?  This is because the cutting edge is slightly shorter than the back edge of the band.



The friction caused by any guides other than roller guides can and will cause the band to heat up in locations where it's not designed to expand, and may cause problems with cuts.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

Scott

[barbender]

 Larry, I don't see how Woodmizer's solution is cheap. There are a lot of moving parts in an LT40's movable blade guide arm and and adjustable blade guides. I see it as another example of a well engineered solution to a problem. Seperate the drive system and the support system of the band. Even with a set of crowned steel wheels, I'd still want the support of the movable guide arm and band rollers. 

 I can see why they might not need guide rollers on a 6" band.

 Shop bandsaws have hokey support systems IMO. I've dreamt of installing a miniature Woodmizer style roller guides adjustable for deflection etc to make the stupid thing cut straight when you're trying to rip stuff. When I see all of the shop bandsaw "solutions" for making straight resawing cuts, it strikes me that if it was my sawmill I would stop and figure out why it wasn't sawing straight in the first place (a lot of what I see are fences that allow you to adjust for "drift" i.e. your saw not cutting straight)

[Ben Cut-wright]

"the flange eliminates the need for a back up bearing. Cheap, but works great. "

I read what Larry wrote to mean: the "flange" is a "cheap" but great way to provide for "back up bearing".  Not that the entire system was cheap. 

[Larry]

Yes, probably didn't word my post properly.

[barbender]

Got it😊

[Magicman]

To use Roller Guides, the blade guide attachment needs the ability to provide 8 way adjustment.  If  member "Taproots84" opts for rollers, I will go and take my BGAT and help him with the setup and alignment.  

[Taproots84]

Thank you each one for taking the time to answer my question and share your wisdom. I am humbled and excited to have access to such knowledge. I plan to change from ceramic guides to rollers, and I will certainly take Magicman up on his offer. I look forward to sharing my experience with the rollers. The few reviews that I found of Norwood owners who upgraded were overwhelmingly in favor of the roller guides. 

[Magicman]

We have a plan !! 

[Magicman]

I went to the Norwood site and found what I believe to be the roller blade guide retro kit:  Norwood Blade Guide. 

The actual blade guide took a bit to load.  Click: Blades and Parts and then Guide Kits.  It looks interesting.