I just got home with a 2011 LT35HD - I need your counsel on how to succeed.

[MikeySP]

Excellent. Thank you for the clarification gents.

Doc and Yellowhammer, you two set a very good example of how to do things well. Doc, your stacks could be a furniture. YH, that is a very admirable operation you have there and a well organized bigger operation.... can I delete my photos  :D.

I went through a pile of logs I fell several months ago (ready for burning) and was able to salvage 34 logs, mostly 8ft. Some 12-16ft also. I used my skid steer and got them in position for my sawmill. Once my debarker is done, I will get to it.

I put a new ad on FB today and it was immediately in red. I removed it. I will try the "Sawmill for hire" route. I did ask FB what am I doing wrong and how do I do it right. I took the example of Southside Logger and put an ad on Craigslist. Got contacted by a country singer this evening (we do live near Nashville  8)) and he was interested in having me saw about 40 Cedar logs that they fell some months ago. I am about to email him. That man had impeccable manners, so much so, it stood out. Anyways, it is about a half hour from me.

Big question: how do you charge BF? I assumed that when sawing someone's log into lumber that .45 a board foot meant the bill is determined by what they have stacked. Is this how you charge for portable... board foot of lumber stacked? In contrast to log scale.

Do you bring stickers with you or do you mill them on site out of the lumber you are sawing for someone? If they do not want to be part of the sawing, do you bring a helper or do it yourself for smaller job. If you do it yourself how do you account for the added work in the pricing?

Thank you!

-Mike

[MikeySP]

Yellow Hammer, I am thinking those long pallets are a very nifty idea. Once I have my land developed more, I will go that route. Currently it is muck and mire. However, maybe still a good idea if I were to setup a some level platforms to set such pallets on, even if they are stop gap measures for a couple years. Nifty trick indeed.

[doc henderson]

mike, I can see if I can find a pic of my first stack of blue spruce.  It will make you feel better!!!  do you plan to saw at his place or bring the cedar back home.  If he is polite, might be military or simply southern!  cedar can have a lot of silica and dull your blades.  did he say what dimensions he wants and how big the logs are.  sounds like great first job.  congrats.  don't sell yourself short.  
ps might be able to make stickers out of some of that stack you have.  I make mine as I cut, usually the first and or last boards that tend to have more sapwood.  I cut it into lengths the same length as the cant is wide and rip 3/4" thick on a table saw.  

[MikeySP]

Doc, being humbled is a good thing. Someone stated a simultude of "being a sawyer is more than cutting a log into lumber" and he was correct. It is very good for me to see modeled excellence even when it shows my infancy. 

I would be sawing at his place. He wants to focus on posts as big and as long as possible; and then get any other lumber out of it as possible. I asked him for a photo of the log pile when I emailed him my info sheet tonight. 

I did tell him I am a newb when we spoke. We will see if I hear back from him. Even if this doesn't pan out, i am encouraged that I am at least getting some leads in only hours of an ad going up. 

I am very glad to have the 34 logs piled in front of the camper. This whole adventure is a little scary, but I have no choice but to be diligent. The problem I see is making the wisest decisions. It is easy to get tunnel vision or to miss the forest for the tree. I sharpened my chainsaw today. I had tried some years ago but gave up at my poor results and ended up paying for a local shop to sharpen every time. Now that I will be using it a lot more, I decided I need to be able to do it myself. So, Youtube U (my alma mater) provided me with some examples and I did it successfully. Stihl is making a new ( I had never seen it before) hand sharpener for about $40; so, I have that on my list of nice to haves. It sharpens and sets depth gauge at same time. Squirrel. 

-Mike

[Southside]

Mike - FWIW cedar tends to have a lot of taper, bow, and bark inseam, not to mention long healed over ant nests from 1542, in it so you don't always get the size post that one would think a log will yield, at least not a post free of wane, just keep that in mind.  Also cedar bark will fetch up on the fingers that  are located just inside of the dust chute on your saw, so if you don't see sawdust coming out of the chute and instead it seems to be pouring out of the covers or right around the chute exit stop and clean out the hang-ups there at the safety fingers otherwise you will knock the band off of the wheels at the very least.  

[doc henderson]

I get pallets at lowes with permission.  you might collect a few for stacking wood.  If you are going to stack and sticker, might be best to go hourly.  if you hit a snag cause you are new, you can take the appropriate time off your bill. If he has the logs cut, he must be serious.  I hope it pans out.

[MikeySP]

SSL, thank you for those Cedar tips!! I was surprised to see my 2011 LT35 does not have those fingers. I may need to inspect and see if they were cut out or not included that year.

Doc, is it not customary to stack and sticker the lumber... or is that normally left for the customer to do?

I actually have a bunch of regular size pallets. They are too small, but, maybe I can splice them together with a couple of pieces of lumber. Thanks for triggering this thought. We are part of a really awesome food coop and I typically take the pallets that everyone's food arrives on. The drivers are glad not to have to get rid of them for their next load. Tomorrow I will splice a couple together and see how it works. 

[MikeySP]

Yellow Hammer, I was just looking over your air dry stack line outside. Do you have anything that you put on top to cover it? 

I see you have embedded railroad ties in the crushed green concrete you mentioned earlier? Looks to be a steel platform on top of the ties? Was that a planned platform or a re-purposed item that presented itself?

[Tom the Sawyer]

MikeySP, in addition to, or in lieu of, an ad on FB Marketplace; have you built, or considered a Facebook business page?  I have never run an ad in the marketplace but do get a lot of calls, likes, and shares from my FB business page.
Update Your Browser | Facebook 

[YellowHammer]

Actually, that load is one of our weekly kilns loads coming out, it's all cherry, and I was using it as an example of how pallets can be easily and cleanly stacked in multiples.  

The picture shows our kiln track resting on crossties emebedded in the gravel, and that's exactly what we do in one of our airdrying building.  We put gravel down then embed and carefully level crossties in the gravel, then back fill with more gravel, jus like building a rail road.  The pallets of wood go on top of the crossties.  The setup is very stable and gets the bottoms of the pallets off the mud, which is important to prevent insects from getting to it.

The air drying areas we have do have covers, to keep rain off the wood. 

Our wood stays on the pallet through the entire process.  From the mill to the stacking area, then to one of our air drying shed, then to the kiln, then to the intermediate storage, then to deadstacking, then loaded in a trailer for planing, and eventually stacked in our warehouse.  All on the same pallet. Here's some pics.



 

[MikeySP]

Tom, that may be a good option. My buddy has been prompting me to make use of technology for marketing. I will think on that.

Yellow Hammer, Thank you for the clarification incredible operation. I was just showing the pics and explaining what you said to my wife and daughter, inspirational and educational. 

-Mike

[Southside]

As far as the fingers go, let's just say my 35 might be missing one or two as well. Perhaps the previous owner of your mill had a saws-all run away from him like mine did and find it's way into there.  Just be careful not to allow anyone near the dust chute when sawing as those fingers prevent a broken band from flying out, and yes you will have them break. It's quite the event.

[YellowHammer]

MikeySP, thanks for the compliments.
One trick we use is to layout the pallet runners on 16 inch centers, (or whatever works best for you) and then use a can of white spray paint and outline the placement of the runners on the concrete.  So anytime we need more pallets, we have a ready marked template on the floor.

[MikeySP]

Southside Logger, that is good to know the point of those fingers. I did not do the math, but noticed them on other pics and did not notice them on my mill. I will scrutinize, but I am pretty sure they are no there.

Yellow Hammer, your welcome, but you earned it. I like shortcuts that make periodic tasks efficient, so your tip is noted. Thank you. I was just doing my morning reading, and I found you had a website  Great treat to read your main page and the kiln page. I was delighted to see your comment as I closed the page with your website. I will try to finish reading it this evening or tomorrow morn, but I need to get to work.

Have a good day gentlemen. 

-Mike

[WV Sawmiller]

MikeySP,

   You asked about calculating bf for billing. Some sawyers scale the log before sawing and bill based on that. I actually saw then measure the stack at the end of the job. Be sure to tally every stack before it leaves the area if that situation occurs during sawing. If I beat the scale I win. If it is less than scale the customer wins. No big win or loss either way. Some people keep up with each board as it comes off the mill then tally that at the end of the job. I'm not that coordinated and usually the boards are coming too fast for me to keep an accurate count which I why I tally at the end of the job. In some cases if the stacks aren't that uniform instead of trying to count every board I measure the finished stack and the customer and I agree on an average or estimated height, width and length and I calculate based on that. It is easier if you keep all lengths the same and stacks are kept neat.

    For some jobs I use an hourly rate - small, short logs, specialty sawing, etc. If sawing under 1", which is common with cedar customers, every board under 1" is counted as if it were 1" thick. Some sawyers count any log under 8' as if it were 8'. I also have a $25 band fee if I hit metal - this is common practice for most of us.

    Remember to discuss and make sure the customer understands and concurs with your billing system before you ever put saw to wood. Any system is fair as long as both parties understand and agree to the method and rate. Good luck.

[alan gage]

is it not customary to stack and sticker the lumber... or is that normally left for the customer to do?

I believe the common practice is to not stack and sticker wood for the customer at the regular sawing rate. That would be an extra charge.

You mentioned waiting to get your debarker done before sawing logs. Wondering why the wait? Unless it's going to be done in a couple days I'd just start sawing. Your blades will dull a little faster but you're going to start learning a lot in a hurry once you begin sawing.

Alan

[MikeySP]

Alan, thank you for answering that question. 

I had plenty to do in the mean time. All but my springs arrived, so I am on to the debarker install now. My logs are in really bad shape from sitting in a burn pile for many months, so I wanted to wait the couple days to preserve my blades. I also had to collect said logs, which I did yesterday. 34 of them .

Thank you.

-Mike

[WV Sawmiller]

  I'm with Alan on the stickering. I typically show the customer how to sticker them (because they don't know how) but my normal rate includes only sawing and I tell the customer to provide a helper to stack and help feed logs to the mill and such. I do have different rates if I have to stack and even more if I stack and sticker. Not to say I won't help the customer or his helper to move a heavy board or slab from time to time but they know it is a courtesy and not part of the normal job. 

   Another reason to have a good conversation with the customer about responsibilities and such prior to starting the job. There should be no shocks prior to, during the job or when it comes time to do the tally and pay the piper.

[doc henderson]

Mike, I have had my mill for over 5 years and never had a debarker.  And in case you were wondering after all this, the answer is no, I do not plan to build my own.   :D  

[MikeySP]

I am so lost. I am reminded of my first time with a compass and a map. Could not find my first point and my land navigation adventure turned into a 10 mile road march.  :D

I am going to be making some mistakes. Who knows, with no follow up calls from any of the three potential customers, maybe my brutal honesty "I am a newb!" is chasing them off. I am prepared to eat some loss as long as it is not to my integrity. 

I noticed Tom The Sawyer sells stickers "bundles of 25, 3' stickers are $15 per bundle, and 4' stickers are $18 per bundle."  Is this normative? Is there a normative? What about you gentlemen who engage in portable work?

Doc, are you doing much volume?

[WV Sawmiller]

   I offer to sell dry stickers but never get any takers. I suggest to the customer to use dry stickers and tell them they can buy 3/4" plywood or cheap 2" furring strips and make their own. Sometimes the first thing I cut for a customer is a scrappy,sacrificial log into stickers then we generate some more during edging especially when cutting 4/4 lumber. Of course these are green but better than flat stacking. 

[doc henderson]

when your customers meet you and get to know you , integrity will not be an issue.  After that 10 mile hike, I bet you learned compass and map like the back of your hand.  I am a big, "that which does not kill us, makes us stronger",  The serious guys will appreciate your honesty.  If you work for a hands off guy, he can pay you more or to include a helper.  The do-it-yourselfers will chip in under your guidance.  It is time for you to jump out of the plane and go mill some wood!  hope to meet you someday.  If most people had your discipline and enthusiasm, the world would be a better place.  My regards!!!
ps I am a uber-hobbiest so I make money at my day job, but know how to work like I don't know where my next paycheck is coming from!
pss if you don't hear back, call up the one you wanted the most and reduce you hourly rate by 10$ and hour, and after that you can stop telling everyone you are new, you have milled more wood than any of them!

[Magicman]

Who knows, with no follow up calls from any of the three potential customers

I will actually get a sawing job from maybe ½ of the folks that call for many different reasons.  They find out that felling, bucking, and skidding is work.  And then there is money.  You give a good estimate of the cost and it is more than they expected.  Lastly there is always competition.  Yup, someone may cut your price, or maybe they were checking someone else's price when they called you.  It's all business and there is enough to go around.

[Old Greenhorn]

I am so lost. I am reminded of my first time with a compass and a map. Could not find my first point and my land navigation adventure turned into a 10 mile road march.  :D

I was running through the most recent posts and saw your comment above and it gave me pause. First, even though you haven't seen me say anything in this thread, you should know I have followed every post. You were getting better advice from smarter folks than me and the most I could contribute was to keep my mouth shut. I admire your work ethic, effort, and focus.
However, those words you wrote hit me like a brick. I have said that to myself more than a few times in my life when I had made a major life choice and put a lot of time, money, and all my effort into it without seeing the results "I expected" in the time frame that "I expected". Here are the words that popped into my head the instant I read what you wrote:
TAKE A BREATH!
You can't expect the world to respond on your timeline. You may tell people you are a 'newbie', but frankly, that is your perspective. From their perspective, you know more than they ever will already. You are not giving yourself credit for your research, study, and hands on work. You are not a newbie, you are somebody who is in the early stages. That's all. You can share that you are not a journeyman miller and you can give them a price break on that, but I wouldn't go much further. You could say "I haven't been doing this very long". I would rather you focus on the customer's satisfaction at the end of the job. It won't take but 2 or 3 jobs before you have your sea legs and can decide better how to charge. Get some jobs, do them cheap, even if you take a loss (but cover your costs plus a little). After those jobs, don't let anybody take advantage, set your rates. Folks will remember your attitude more than they remember the cost. Above all, do not sell yourself short (and I see you are doing this right now). You've got this, you are doing all the right things, but there is one thing you can't rush, and that is time. You need some time on the job doing the work. Doc had some great words too, read that again, then take another breath.
Good Luck. Everybody here is behind you.

[Tom the Sawyer]

MikeySP,

Taking a breath is good advice.  It is easy to fall victim to analysis paralysis, and that may be why you might feel lost at times.  

Simplification - the suggestions about spending a day with an experienced sawyer would be extremely valuable.  In the mean time, spending some time with your mill is very important.  I saw that you wanted to get going in 2 weeks, it didn't happen and it probably was a source of additional stress - which interferes with your ability to make decisions.  

I would suggest that you put in some time making sawdust before booking appointments.  There is a learning curve to running a mill, more for custom sawing, and even more for working mobile.  There is no magic number of logs, or thousands of board feet before you are ready.  If you have the logs, mill your own and build a stockpile (you'll get experience stacking and stickering).  If you don't have the logs, maybe a Grand Opening sale for a few select (family, friends) clients.  Not only do you get vital experience, you'll also learn if their are any quirks in your mill, how long it takes to accomplish certain tasks, etc.  I would also video everything you do, it can be very helpful to review processes, time activities, etc. 

I know you are reading and learning a lot but actually running the mill is important too, and it will make what you read more informative. 

Oh yeah, on the topic of stickers. Here in the Midwest, I have not been able to find a professional source of stickers, unless I am willing to buy a semi-load from the SE, NE, or NW part of the country.  Part of my protocol is to make sure that clients understand the drying process for the lumber we make.  I mill hardwoods almost exclusively, primarily for woodworkers and custom furniture makers.  If their lumber sits dead stacked too long, or has defects from improper stickering, they might take responsibility... or maybe blame the sawyer. 

Many of my clients have never had a log milled and there are some that didn't know that the wood had to dry.  I furnish them with the information they need to successfully dry their lumber, and several methods of making stickers.  I offer stickers as a convenience, I much prefer they make their own but for some, a one-stop solution is worth it.  Most years I sell between 1000 and 1500 stickers, on a production volume of about 50,000 bf.  They are priced to cover the cost of making them. ;)