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Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening

Started by PA_Walnut, April 23, 2018, 06:42:14 AM

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YellowHammer

I would go with aluminum door frames, no rust and light weight.

Full opening fold back hinges so if you hang an end of a pallet of wood loading the kiln, (you will eventaully) the doors are opened completely out of the way and you will only scuff the door opening and rip the seal off that, not the doors. Not that I've ever done it, a couple times.  

Remember that if you are going to drive your skidsteer in through the door you can't cant have a raised wooden door threshold or it will get torn up in a hurry.  So the bottom door seal will be against concrete, or a garage door type floor seal on the concrete to meet the bottom door seal.

Here's a picture of a Kiln Direct one, I used some of these ideas for mine, many years ago.
Notice all the hinges, face seals of both the doors and the door frame, lots of cam lock clamps on the door frame top to keep the doors pressed against the seals.  


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

scsmith42

Quote from: PA_Walnut on April 28, 2018, 06:51:36 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on April 27, 2018, 05:25:38 PMHere is how mine is designed.   The bottom is comprised of three 2x12's sandwiched together (and glued).  The parallel chord truss above is glued with construction adhesive and screwed to the 2x12's.  It is a 20' span


This is awesome and very helpful! Thanks much! That would seem to be a design that would work well for me and and aesthetic that I can get past the War Dept.

A few questions, if I may:


  • Are the 2x12 headers all single-board spans? (the pic looks like the front one is two pieces)?
  • Is the chord truss engineered design (is there a spec for it) or did you just make it to what you thought was right?
  • The sides are of concern as elaborated above. Can you outline that a little too? I'm assuming that it's more 2x12's stacked and glued?
  • What is your front opening height and how high is the total structure in the front?

Thanks for your efforts and picture posting!

I think this design with Yellow's idea of a metal door frame is what I'll do.
The 2x12's were 16 footers so there is a spice in each layer (offset across all three layers).
I swagged the truss design.  One thing we messed up was that my guys installed the truss upside down on the header.  The diagonal members should be pointed up and towards the center.  It was already glued and screwed when I checked on them, but with the exterior plywood glued on it has not budged at all.
I'm not sure what you're asking about the sides.  The corner posts are multiple stacked 2x6's with plywood glued and nailed on the outside of all walls.  
Door opening is approximately 8' tall.  Overall height on the door side is about 14'.  I designed it this way in order to allow me to fork our standard kiln stacks into it (the standard VT design requires 5' deep stacks in order to fill to capacity, but my Nyle carts are based upon 4' stack depth).
Basically I started with Gene's VT design, narrowed the depth by a foot and increased the height at the bottom by 3' in order to accommodate my standard kiln stacks.  I also widened it up.
IMO a metal structure would not require the extent of material that the wood one does.  Aluminum frames with foam infill for the doors would be a great way to go (as per Robert's recommendation).
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

PA_Walnut

Thanks once more for the elaboration on your design. I have the slab painted, so need to start building. I used Polycuramine, (Rustoleum's Rock Solid) which is alleged to be 20x more durable than epoxy.

Been a bit distracted by just purchasing a LARGE load of walnut logs, planting 150 fir, spruce and white pine trees, seeding the hill with mega-pounds of clover for the bees, and last but not least, installing the new V3 debarked on my 40Wide, so that it reaches in far enough to debark smaller logs too. Thanks WoodMizer for the gratis upgrade to making this right.

Excuses don't dry wood though, so need to bust-a-move!  :D

Pix of Rock solid floor coating. Time to frame. (had J-bolts ready to place during concrete work, but got to it too late...concrete was too setup, so will drill and anchor.)  :'(


I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Don P

Another one that might help with header design. You'll need to register but they don't spam. Go to apawood.org and search for z416 "Nailed structural-use panel and lumber beams". I would use full height 6x6 solid posts as part of the end assembly, using the header ply to brace the posts from the deep beam as well as possible.

A little construction geek stuff. The concrete and inspection folks prohibit "wet stabbing" anchor bolts into concrete. What usually happens is the bolt pushes the aggregate down and just cream flows up around and over the hook providing little strength. They want to see us hang them from the formwork prior to the pour and pour around them nowadays. Actually that kind of forces us to get them in the right line and to the correct depth but it does take more time.

Crusarius

I would love to know how well that floor holds up. Did you do any grinding or acid washing for surface prep?

PA_Walnut

Quote from: Crusarius on May 01, 2018, 12:40:52 PMI would love to know how well that floor holds up. Did you do any grinding or acid washing for surface prep?


I'll report back at a later date. I did not etch, since it was a new pour. I left the surface a little rough to help with adhesion. I put the little specs on there so it would look better once scratched-up, etc.

It's also cool, so when I retire from lumber, I can make it into a man-cave, complete with bourbon tap. 8)

I have an aluminum door set and frame being manufactured too. Gonna cost more per sq ft than my house! :o
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

You might consider getting the door seals from Nyle ASAP.  Then get them to the metal guy and have him mount it.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

PA_Walnut

Well, 15 months later...kiln build is almost done and ready to build and hang doors. My metal guy ghosted me, so going with wood for now: light as possible build, wood frame, 5" (two layers) of polyiso in center, and some VERY light skin to cover, either in metal or something like 1/4" pine B&B to match rest of build. 

Of course, lot of seals and cam-locks to hold them tight.

Anyone have info/links for really great super-duty hinges? The sides have solid oak 8x8's to bolt or lag to, so I don't see issues there.
Thanks in advance.

p.s. I'll post some pix asap.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

moodnacreek

P.A. Walnut, when you get that all done come up here and build me one!

Crusarius

PA tractor supply has barrel hinges. they work very well for very heavy doors. I had a shed that had a 15' opening and two very large doors. they worked great.

Here is a link for one half of the hinge.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/national-hardware-n131-409-298bc-pintle-zinc-plated

here is the other half.
https://www.amazon.com/National-Hardware-N131-060-294BC-plated/dp/B000BQT1JE/ref=asc_df_B000BQT1JE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=168556243666&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17810590222632361197&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005646&hvtargid=aud-799727667774:pla-305765441651&psc=1

I have had very good luck with them. You can get them both at tractor supply but their website is less than stellar when searching.

Don P

We just used the largest strap hinges that would fit and struc screws. The doors are ~8x8, 1/2" ply 2x framing with 2 layers of foam. I've been thinking about trying layflat hose wrapped around the doors and pumping it up to form a seal.

logbyr

Another large kiln opening in need of a door.  As you can see in pic my kiln is in the back of a building.   I am thinking a bifold, airplane hanger type door to save space in front of the kiln.    Opening is 24'    any ideas on how to make light door that will be rigid as it goes from verticle to horizontal?
My header is a 12" double LVL.

 
 

scsmith42

Quote from: logbyr on November 04, 2019, 07:34:54 AM
Another large kiln opening in need of a door.  As you can see in pic my kiln is in the back of a building.   I am thinking a bifold, airplane hanger type door to save space in front of the kiln.    Opening is 24'    any ideas on how to make light door that will be rigid as it goes from verticle to horizontal?
My header is a 12" double LVL.

 
Since you're indoors on a slab, a roller wheel mounted outside the doors at the bottom of the doors will relieve a lot of stress from the door hinges.
However a horizontal bi-fold door wouldn't be a bad option either.  Probably get a better seal on it.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

K-Guy

Something to keep in mind if your kiln is on a pad larger than the chamber is that the concrete will suck the heat out of the kiln. I recommend an insulated floor on top of the pad.
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

logbyr

Thx for the warning.   I have pex tubes in the floor and intended on firing up the zones under the kiln and in the office behind the kiln this winter.     Next summer when I've realized some cash flow I would like to insulate the main building and keep the whole thing warm next winter.
  I had not thought of heat creep out of the zones under the kiln.    May have to bite bullet and just deal with it this winter.   Most of my wood is sub 20% moisture so it should be a short kiln time.    I think 3 or four fills and I'll have enough dry wood to sell  untill warmer weather kicks in


farmfromkansas

When I used to build houses, came up with a way to build a 16' garage door header that did not sag.  Used 2- 2x12 's at the bottom of the header, and 2- 2x4's at the top, just under the top plate, and would frame the wall with the bottom 2x12 and bottom 2x4 nailed in, with blocking under the headers so they would stay straight, then rip 2 sheets of plywood that went from the top of the 2x4 to the bottom of the 2x12,  use glue before laying down, then lay the corresponding 2x12 and 2x4 on top of the plywood, using glue as well, then nail through the boards with 3 1/2"  nails, stand the wall and then put flat 2x4's on 16" centers on both sides of the ply between the headers.  This way you can have about a 3' wide header over your opening which will not sag. Should work for a solar kiln as well.
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

If possible, for this winter, you could lay some rigid insulation board about two feet or three feet wide all around the outside of the kiln on the floor to minimize heat loss.  Concrete does conduct heat well, so floor insulation inside the kiln is indeed appropriate in the future.  

For a kiln that has its own slab, it is suggested that a trench outside the edge of the floor be dug about two feet deep and then vertical board insulation is placed around the entire foundation and edges of the floor. And then fill the trench back up.  Also, any concrete above the ground needs to be insulated on the exterior.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

PA_Walnut

Ready to get doors up today. Build them out of hemlock for frame. Will see if pintle and strap hinges will hold it.
As for floor insulation, I'm good. Put down mono block forms and 2" polyiso under it. Slab is well insulated.






I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Crusarius

I have never seen those forms before. I like those.

PA_Walnut

Quote from: Crusarius on November 26, 2019, 07:25:09 AMI have never seen those forms before. I like those.


Yes, they are just brilliant! Makes pouring easier and great insulation. WIN:WIN!
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Crusarius

So you just did you gravel base set the forms put the foam in the bottom and pour? I love it. What kind of cost are they?

PA_Walnut

Yes, gravel base, set the forms, use 2x8's to hold them together, stake them down, fill center will more gravel (to make a monolithic pour--thicker at the perimeter).

They are awesome, fast and easy.
I have NO affiliation with them at all, just pleased customer. Monoslab EZ Forms. Mine were about $1k.

I'm going to upload more pix of my entire build...been a labor of love. (for a long-term use)!

I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Crusarius


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