Wild Fire 2025

[Magicman]

I suppose that the red stuff is a fire retardant and is dropped where the fire has not reached yet?  Maybe that is where the water is going too?

[Andries]

Lynn: The CL-415 can scoop up 1,350 gallons per fill on the fly.
I've been close to the drop zone on afire that I called in, in NW Ontario.
The first drop was close to the target, the second was a direct hit bullseye, third was a soaking for good measure. Red dye is used as a visual aid to focus the next drop, I'd guess, more than a fire retardant. That stuff is caustic as heck and how do you get it into the tanks on a scoop and drop mission?
I waved goodbye, they waggle their wings in reply, and the fire is under control or dead.
Spruce trees that measured nine inches at mid-way up were snapped off. That much water has a heavy impact, enough to flatten a house. 
However, according to firefighters that know, the humidity in the air at the fire zone is key. 
Romeo Petit knew that and was standing on a burning house, garden hose soaking down as much as he could to stop the fire from advancing.
A fine sprinkler mist over a wide area is enough to divert a fire around a built-up area.

[tule peak timber]

I suppose that the red stuff is a fire retardant and is dropped where the fire has not reached yet?  Maybe that is where the water is going too?

Phoschek drop in my back yard a couple of months ago. Wildfires are something we live with all year round.

[Riwaka]

The Canadair 515 is listed as having a 680 liter (180 US gallon) foam tank on board to go with the 6137 litres/ 1621 US gallon) onboard water tank. The 'foam' appears to be mixed in as the plane is scooping from the lake.(The Canadian pilot's accent in a 415 vid is a bit heavy for zee exact description).  

[barbender]

The Bombardiers are very impressive units. There is a long, narrow lake about 3/4 of a mile behind our house that they prefer to use, I'm told, because the length gives them flexibility in scooping and being narrow it doesn't get too choppy.

When they are scooping, it must be FULL throttle, even that far from the house the windows shake when they throttle up. In addition, they always worked in a team of two bombers, and a smaller spotter plane. So one bomber would be circling, while the other scooped. Often, their path would take them right over the house. One pass, the plane was low enough that I could see the pilots aviator sunglasses and moustache...that one really shook the house. That was much lower than I liked, if something happened he would've been right in the roof!

At any rate, my hat is off to those guys. They're good and I think they have thrill issues.

[Ianab]

I wonder what % of the water bomber's water actually gets to the ground to be effective?  As hot as the fire is, I would think that it would boil or evaporate when it reached the flames.

They dump a LOT of water very quickly, but a fire like this, with the wind driving it, will be spreading burning debris hundreds of yards ahead of the main front. So it leap frogs any fire break / road / defensive line.

It's the wind that's driving the fire that makes it impossible to control

[Ianab]

When they are scooping, it must be FULL throttle

When you think about it, they are picking up ~6 tons of stationary water, AND accelerating it to ~100 mph, in seconds. If they weren't at max power, it would be a pretty effective brake for landing. Except at the end of the scoop, they still need to be at flying speed to lift off again. 

[barbender]

Oh yeah, I fully understand why they are at full throttle. But it is surprising to hear what is already a loud plane, increase in volume about 3x with all the low frequencies that shake the house from a mile away!

Another thing to watch with these birds- when they drop their payload of water, which would be around 12,000 pounds I think, they gain about 100 feet of altitude in an instant. A person tends to be watching the water when they drop it, but sometime watch the plane itself. It jumps in height almost as if a movie that is missing a few frames.

[customsawyer]

Andries sorry to hear about your niece. Anywhere in front of a fire with 100mph winds would take someone with smarts and experience, or they wouldn't last long. 

[Andries]

Thank you, Jake and one and all, for the offers of support for my niece and her young daughter. The offers are heartfelt, generous and deeply appreciated.
The FF's hidden but very real strength is the strong relationships developed between honourable and hardworking people.
She's a clever cookie and has managed to get set up pretty well until they get longer term living space. 
Can you imagine what the California insurance industry is going through right now? 🤦�♂️ 

Our very own Tule Peak said it best: Thick Wallets Burn Loudly. Good one Rob! 

Headlines now are that the Santa Anna winds are going to remain strong for the next few days, looting is being controlled by a high LEO headcount and that landlords in the general LA area are busy 'disaster gouging' by jacking up rental prices. 
I'll also predict that lumber prices will have a big upward trend. Thousands of miles away up here, the price of studs and sheet goods jumped after this Fall's tornado mess in the SouthEast USA. 
Can't see why the LA rebuilding efforts and demand won't cause it to go up even more.

[Brucer]

Would forest management be a good option?

Absolutely! But forest management would have made no difference in this case because this fire was a series of structural fires, spread by extremely high winds, with low humidity, after a prolonged drought.

Would fire mitigation be a good option?

Absolutely! But in this kind of fire the mitigation has to be at the individual homeowner level.

California firesmart program.

Firesmart landscaping

Those protection measures work. Looking at pictures from before the LA fires, most houses didn't even come close to those criteria.

This same situation happened on a smaller scale in Kelowna, BC in 2003; in Fort MacMurray, Alberta in 2016; and in Jasper, Alberta in 2024. No amount of personnel or equipment can stop fires on this scale. The fires are spread by burning embers landing on dry foliage miles ahead of the main fire.

Would water reservoirs be a good option?

Absolutely! LA has plenty of full reservoirs. One was closed for repairs. The problem wasn't a shortage of water in the city. It was a shortage of water pressure at the fire hydrants. Municipal fire systems are not designed to handle the demand when an entire subdivision goes up in flames all at once. And when several subdivisions on a hillside are all burning, there isn't enough pressure to supply any water to the highest levels.

The 3 million gallons of water storage at the top of the hills were supposed to provide the necessary pressure. But there were so many fires the tanks ran dry. The backup plan was to use the two air tankers (aka water bombers) from Quebec. They're stationed with their crews in LA every winter for precisely this situation. But the winds were so strong they couldn't fly in the early stages of the fire.



You can argue about climate change either way. It's irrelevant. People knew there was a prolonged drought. People knew about the Santa Ana winds. People just never imagined that a fire like this could happen.

I suspect that most homeowners didn't know about the firesmart guidelines I linked to above. And I suspect that a lot of people were complacent because their homes were far from the forest.

Could local politicians have done more? Yes. More planning, more preparation, and most important, more education of the public. But I'm sure the politicians didn't imagine this could happen.

[customsawyer]

I've seen some interesting reports about the "smart" meters on the gas lines going to homes. Don't have a clue if there's any truth to it.

[TreefarmerNN]

Brucer in post 35 is right on target.  Smart landscaping, better prep by homeowners and the city all would have helped limit the destruction but given the circumstances as they existed, those fires were going to burn despite heroic efforts by people on the ground.  Now there will be scholarly studies and reports, lots of finger pointing but unfortunately, I doubt any real change from the governmental side.  Some homeowners, especially the wealthy ones will do doubt build back with fire resistance in mind but LA is already talking about cutting the red tape to allow quicker rebuilding.  No doubt lots of red tape is administrative nonsense but if they are going to allow construction in an area where lots of dry fuel exists and strong desert winds regularly occur, then perhaps it makes sense to require re-development to take those factors into account.  One thing is for sure- insurance companies will consider those factors.  These fires may literally break some companies and others will totally exit the market but all of us can expect higher premiums as a result of a multi-billion dollar event.  Not to mention, California is already saying the feds should pay for rebuilding. . .

[Raider Bill]

If you want to see what's going to happen in the Cali insurance market just look to Florida.
Same, same.

[tule peak timber]

We are bracing for another big wind event today through Wednesday. We are warned that power is getting shut off sometime today for the whole area and we are on watch. No word yet from clients in the burn areas as to how they are faring. The places I grew up in as a kid, traveled through, and did business in since the 60's are gone and will be reshaped forever. My sister did make it out ok.

Our fire insurance was canceled 4 years ago and now we have the last-ditch State plan, colloquially referred to as the "CA Unfair Plan". Lots of politics involved as to who the fire department assist, visit, protect during our very frequent wildfire events. Really frustrating to be forced into compliance with the threat of fines yet selectively picked during emergency events. There is a great deal to this and there are no simple answers. The neighbours in back of us were wiped out a couple of months ago and are now operating a mobile taco stand at the local gas station trying to stay alive. Need I say more?

Until you have actually been through these fire hurricanes and fire tornadoes, it's easy to armchair fire fight, whether you are a politician locally or a well-meaning person somewhere else. These things happen very, very fast and education, planning, clearing, prepping is all fine but sometimes just doesn't make a darn difference.

[LogPup]

I remember seeing the video of two guys trying to save their home.  If you had stepped out into the backyard you would have been incinerated.  The winds
were so high it was like a blow torch.  There is no way you could fight that.  I have been out in 80mph winds and got knocked on my butt and sand blasted.  The
dumb things we do when young!

[Andries]

Does anyone else see the heroic nature in these people?


https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2l09vdlxv2o

Promoting self reliance is one change that may help moving forward.

[barbender]

It's good to hear from people on the ground out there. 

[Gary_C]

Would forest management be a good option?

Absolutely! But forest management would have made no difference in this case because this fire was a series of structural fires, spread by extremely high winds, with low humidity, after a prolonged drought.

No doubt that forest management as well as the other options are long range prevention options. It's always difficult to remind yourself that when you are up to your you know what in alligators that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

Here is a very good analysis from some local's who delve into the "Who's Accountable" question. The entire analysis is just over an hour long so get your popcorn if you decide to watch. It's eye-opening and there are no easy answers. As Mike Rowe puts it, It's all about the "Bass." Another little tidbit is the lady in charge of the reservoir that was empty and without a repair contractor hired makes $750,000 per year.

[PJS]

This video was interesting. Friends of my parents lost their home to the fire, several more were under evacuation orders. Hopefully they get to the bottom of it. Lessons learned from those whose homes survived and I'll be implementing some around the farm this summer, better to be prepared cause we're not far from Algonquin and it's a tinder box waiting to burn in the right conditions.