Why do you think portable sawmilling pay is so bad compared to other equip oper?

[Kelvin]

I was talking with another sawmiller about why we should only get $50 (going rate around here) with all our equipment investments, knowledge and workload, when bulldozers, skid steers even dump truck drivers charge $60-$80 an hour w/ much less working knowledge and similar equipment costs?

People around my area add up what i charge an hour and usually say "wow, thats a lot"  compared to what?  The guy who mows your lawn? (who probably charges more per hour than i do!)
Just think of all the knowledge base you need to have to saw correctly.  machine tuning, understanding wood and how it grows.  Getting blades to saw straight for any species they throw at you.  Doing everything in a timely manner.  Lots of grunt work, try getting an equipment operator to do that much hand work.  (I know a local hydraulic excavator operator who wouldn't get out of his cab to bother going to the bathroom.)

Now i'm not saying that everyone else charges too much.  How much does a skidsteer cost?  How much training do most of the guys have?  I rented one without ever having used one, and in an hour or so i dont think you could get anymore effecient at moving dirt.  How much does a decent, albiet used dump truck run these days?  How much knowledge does it take to move fill?  I've got a dump truck and a CDL.  they charge $60/hr around here and much more if you are joe blow and go to the gavel pit and ask for a delievery.

I guess price is set by the number of people doing the same thing in the area, and demand for the service.  I guess most people don't care about lumber when they have trees cut.

I think this difference in pay is interesting, what do you guys think?  After driving my dumptruck moving dirt for my new drive a really feel for these guys and you couldn't pay me enough to sit in their for a living.  Same with a backhoe, dozer, skid steer.  5 days a week?  No way!  maybe thats why the pay is higher?
KP

[footer]

Kelvin,
I think a lot has to do with where you are at, and how much competition you have. I am charging $70 - $75 an hr and I have a manual mill. I used to charge 55 - 60 an hr, but with the cost of living trippeling in 5 years, I just couldn't justify doing it any more for that rate. I do not have a debarker, which would help a lot, because I probably average 1 blade every hour, which eats into the proffits in a hurry. I basically have no competition, and I make a point in letting the customer know that sawing is an art that can take years to master, and there are a lot out there that never doo master it. I also let them know the cost of the blades and how that rate is paying for the operating costs. At this point, I wouldn't cut for $50.00 an hr again unless the cutomer pays for all the blades we use.
A lot of the heavy equipment will go through a lot of fuel in a day, and that can add up to a lot also these days. I was talking to a farmer one day that has a giant 4WD John deer. He said they go through 500 gallons a day of diesel pulling a disk. Now if you could get him to disk your fields for $60 an hr, that would be a good deal!

[WeeksvilleWoodWorx]

Kelvin,

I think a lot of it has to do with being a service versus a product. In our business we have to compete not only with other sawyers but also the retail market of what our service provides.

I could be the cheapest mill in town, but if lowes is selling boards cheaper than I can cut them, the logs end up at the chip mill!

[footer]

Kelvin,

I think a lot of it has to do with being a service versus a product. In our business we have to compete not only with other sawyers but also the retail market of what our service provides.

I could be the cheapest mill in town, but if lowes is selling boards cheaper than I can cut them, the logs end up at the chip mill!

That is true to a point, but like has been said before, there are nich markets.  You cannot go to lowes, or any store and get some things, such as large thick solid fireplace mantels, realy wide and or thick boards, lumber for your house and or projects that was grown on your own land, big long solid timbers, and the list goes on and on. The problem lies in finding those niches, and if you are sawing full time, finding enough of them to make a living. If you are trying to produce the same product that everyone else has, you will most likely not make much money at it.

[Steven A.]

There are too many mills for the demand here I think. Too many sawyers doing it as a hobby or to supplement their retirement. Its a fun thing to do for a lot of guys. Every log is a challenge and like a gift being unwrapped.
There is something *cool* about having a mill and so people will buy one for for the romance, mystique, coolness factor and ignore the fact that when they saw too cheaply it drives the market price down for the man trying to make a living with his mill.


Not too many old guys  here operating dumptrucks for the coolness factor.  


As an afterthought..... Do the makers of portable mills advertise them a little too *optimistically*? In my business [not wood related] we have makers of machinery telling prospective buyers how easy it is to make good money fast with their machine. They use all the top figures for income while minimizing  the expenses, the cost of ones time and  completely ignore the marketing expense of the final product. People then buy the machine, underprice the rest of the market to get into the business and then lose interest after a year or so when they find out its not an easy way to make money after all. They sell to someone else who starts the cycle over again.

I don't KNOW that its that way with sawmill makers but I suspect it may be with some.
Is it?

[footer]

As an afterthought..... Do the makers of portable mills advertise them a little too *optimistically*? In my business [not wood related] we have makers of machinery telling prospective buyers how easy it is to make good money fast with their machine. They use all the top figures for income while minimizing  the expenses, the cost of ones time and  completely ignore the marketing expense of the final product. People then buy the machine, underprice the rest of the market to get into the business and then lose interest after a year or so when they find out its not an easy way to make money after all. They sell to someone else who starts the cycle over again.

I don't KNOW that its that way with sawmill makers but I suspect it may be with some.
Is it?

Yes, I think for the most part, that is a true statement.
We have had our mill 8 years or so, and have been trying to figure out the whole time how I could make it full time. The advertising makes it sound like a cake walk to make a ton of money. The reality of it is that for the most part, green rough sawn lumber is not worth much, and hard to sell. The steps to finish off the process, drying and surfacing is time consuming and labor intensive. Sure with a good mill, you might be able to saw 800 bdft an hour, but how could you sticker and handle that much wood in a day unless you had a bunch of cheap labor. If you automate, the price of equipment is then astronomical.
In the mean time, after sawing part time for 8 years or so, my back is about shot, and I'm not sure if I could do it full time now, unless I could afford to pay someone to do all the wood handeling.

[Jeff]

I think the comparison to heavy earth moving equipment it probably a tough thing to try to do.  Pretty hard to walk into a big box store and buy a hole if you think that the hourly rate for dozer work is to much.

[DR Buck]

             and the wise man said unto the forum members.......

           

I think the comparison to heavy earth moving equipment it probably a tough thing to try to do.  Pretty hard to walk into a big box store and buy a hole if you think that the hourly rate for dozer work is to much.

:D :D :D

[brdmkr]

I don't saw for a living, but when I do saw for someone else, I make sure that I am compensated for the trouble.  Because I don't do it for a living, I don't have to feel obligated to get all the business I can.  So, it doesn't matter to me if a customer goes elsewhere (or just decides to sell the logs).  I really do think that many sawyers (myself included) may be charging considerably less than their markets would bare.  I think that this is particularly true when sawing hardwoods.   If sawyers priced their efforts based on what the finished product would cost a customer to buy, they could charge considerably more for hardwoods as hardwood lumber is very expensive in the box stores.  In my experience few sawyers (myself included) actually charge different rates.

Also, like Jeff said, there is a finished product available at the HD that can set the standards in price for a sawyer, but not for a dump truck driver. 

[ohsoloco]

I think the "too many mills" thought is a valid one...I know I experience this from time to time.  This summer a guy came looking for me to ask me about sawing up some logs for him.  He bragged about how much money he made from having his ground logged off, but when I told him how much I charge to saw he actually flinched like I was going to pop him in the face, and rattled off a few *geez oh...*  My rate is only $200/mbf  :  He claimed a guy down the road from him could cut it for $150/mbf.  I didn't argue.  Didn't want the work anyway...it was all the tops that the logger didn't take from the sounds of it. 

There's always someone that will do it cheaper, but often times they don't saw lumber, they just make boards. 

[ely]

well said

[Tim L]

Good one Jeff !

                 

[Kelvin]

Okay, don't like skid steers and dump trucks?  How about tree surgeons and stump grinding.  I find it hard when i show up with my mill to a site and the owner says.  I just paid $1,200 to have it taken down.  I saw 800 bd ft lumber and charge $200 in about 4 hours.  Probably the same amount of time it took the 3 man crew with the bucket truck the time to limb it down.  I know they bought the bucket truck used from the power company and he pays his workers hourly at about $8-$10.  Then if you want a few stumps ground down, a guy will show up towing a machine behind his pickup and charge you about the same as i did to make lumber.  I guess stump grinding is more of a need, and lumber is something you can buy elsewhere?

So, what do you think that for the equipment capitol investment and knowledge base sawmillers are paid well for what they do?  What type job would you compare it to?  I know dump truck driving isn't the same thing, but they are small businesses in the area that have somewhat similar costs.  There are a lot of dump truck guys around as well as backhoes, but somehow they always keep their hourly cost above what i can charge for sawmilling. 

Well drilling unit costs maybe $120k for a decent used one.  New well cost?  $4,500 and takes 5 or so hours.  (neighbor friend just bought one and drilled my well)  Septic system installed with a backhoe cost?  $4,500?  Time? A day with a crew of 3?  Lawncare guys?  Two mowers and a pickup truck.  What do you think these companies do hourly?

Oh, well.  Maybe its just that people aren't as interested in lumber and making things from sratch as they once were.  What do you think?
Kelvin

[getoverit]

Kelvin,
I have been flabberghasted by going to the box store to buy lumber only to find that you can buy kiln dried, planed lumber in dimensional sizes for $.50/bf that has been shipped in from Germany and sold at retail for that price.

Hard to compete with that...

[Left_Coast_Rich]

You know I think that you just hit a nerve there.  Why should the average Joe build with wood when he could go to IKEA and buy a good cnc table and chairs for $300. People do not as a whole want to spend the time and initial outlay to turn lumber into furniture or any other project that they want.  They hire it done. The people who do the work go to the big stores for their supplies cuz it is all uniform and easy to use.  Not very pretty but easy.  Thank goodness there are some who still enjoy the beauty of the home cut tree and the suprize of the figure  LCR 

[TeaW]

Kelvin, I have to agree with you.
There are a lot of small mills around here. Most of them are owned by guys that are on some sort of pension and just want something to do .Hard to compete with that!

[SwampDonkey]

Well, you guys would do great up here. The box stores want $5-20 per running foot (not bf) for hardwood dried, planed or maybe molded. I bought a black cherry plank from a yard with kilned hardwood for $76. I believe it was a 10 footer, so that works out close to $15/bf. Not planed or molded. It's a major lumber distributor. They even buy some local lumber from hardwood mills and plane it to sell. All their cherry and oak has to come from the US as it wouldn't take long to wipe it out here from local woodlots.

http://www.maritimelumber.com/


By the way, what are they calling red birch? That has to be cherry or black birch isn't it? Ohhhh...afterthought.  Maybe they mean some of our yellow birch with red heart. Similar to cherry when finished.

[flip]

If we could cut out a dried, planed , and sized board most people would see the value.  Like mentioned before you can go in and buy a 2x4 at the lumber yard for little more than what we charge.  The customer doesn't have to drag or cut logs, no stacking or air drying for 3 months, and no post processing.  Instant gratification in the check out line, sad but true.

[SwampDonkey]

Kelvin, I have to agree with you.
There are a lot of small mills around here. Most of them are owned by guys that are on some sort of pension and just want something to do .Hard to compete with that!

Same here, or most guys not retired have wives who are teachers or nurses and they need something to play at to kill the boredom.  ;) :D

[Dave Shepard]

I don't know what you have for big box stores in your area, but the last time I looked around here the Home Cheapo was selling pine S4S for somewhere well north of $2.50 a bf, IIRC.


Dave

[tcsmpsi]

What I see, is that proportionately, the lumber market is notably behind in an overall increase.

Fuel, equipment, etc have all made a much more significant increase.  

Of course, overall, the lumber market is related to the housing market.  The mean price of a house has increased considerably more than its lumber component.
So, how much should a stud actually cost today?

Lumber's end result is much like the minimum wage.  Ultimately, they are both the 'whipping boy' of the economic profit base.  For more lucrative economic structures (real estate, major corporations, etc.), increased profits seem a daily necessity.  To 'enjoy' these, it is necessary to keep the base structure 'well disciplined' (or, oppressed, depending on one's viewpoint).

So, stepping into an oppressed level of the economy to make a profit is going to be tricky, at best.

Of course, as has been stated, niche markets are outside that parameter.

I couldn't consider (literally or theoretically) sawmilling full time, or even a significant part time.  It will become an integral part of the 'family' of things which I do to draw an income, however.  

One of the things which I have noticed since coming to the forum, is a tendency to....hmmmm....shortchange ones' abilities, capabilities and accomplishments.  If one is to do something to make a profit, one has to actually make a profit to continue doing it.

Competetive pricing is not worth self-oppression.  

Obviously, the simple answer to your question, Kelvin, is 'you don't get more,
because you don't charge more'.   ;)

Now, the other day I read (electric co-op magazine, I think) that in East Texas, the number of operational sawmills had dropped from the neighborhood of 5,000 to the neighborhood of 4,000.

I still think, when I am ready, I can keep as busy milling as I can possibly fit in, and make enough profit to make it worthwhile.  Regardless of what others might or might not do.  Or charge.

[Steven A.]

"Obviously, the simple answer to your question, Kelvin, is 'you don't get more,
because you don't charge more'."

In my business [unrelated to sawmilling or woods but similar in concept and customer base] I am the highest priced in my trade area and I'm always busy.
Am I better than everyone else?
No.
I'm better than many though, and no one is better than me.

But most importantly I'm better in promotion than anyone near me.  I'm seen as having the premium product because I show them and tell them it is.
Is it enough better for me to charge 15 to 30% more than my competitors?

Well...................I give them a great product and great service. If they are willing to pay me 30% more for a job that really only costs me 10% more..... who am I to argue? 

I don't know the saw business well but I would guess as in most niche businesses.... if you do a good job, smile and thank the customer, give him a little extra that he did not expect, give his little boy some peanuts from your pocket,.... next time he won't shop price. He will just call and say, "come and do it".


I like this thread, its a good business school and the price is right.

[Cedarman]

When I did custom sawing in the 80's, I charged by the board foot.  This gave me incentive to be very efficient and get as much done in a day as possible.  As time went on more mills came around and I changed directions so that by 88 I was pretty much just ERC.  Niche market, still changing and expanding.  Just bought a grizzly 18" belt sander to make my T&G that much better than the competion.  My moulder left very small marks that could be seen when the light is just right.  My customers love my stuff because it is thicker and wider than the competition.  Why do it better?  Because I want to stay ahead of the competition.

Steven posted as I was typing this and I couldn't agree more.

We are trained by ads on TV that lowest cost is always the best.  The rich did not get rich by thinking cheap.  You must market yourself as the best sawyer, getting the most value out of every log that crosses your mill.  The professionalism that you show your customers will make a difference.  Appearances are everything, you must make your customers believe that they are getting great value for their money.  How you answer the phone, greet people, the looks of your equipment speak volumes.  Do you talk about positive things with your customers in an upbeat manner or are you negative, complaining about life etc.  Make your customers tickled that you sawed their logs.  Now all this is easily said.  It takes thought and practice.  An example,  never say "Would you like some cheaper lumber?".  Instead say "Would you like some more economical lumber".  Instead of "I have some cull lumber over here" Say "I have some lumber with character over here"  Or "I have some industrial grade material over here".

If you charge by the hour, when does your time start?  Is there a setup fee and by the hour?  If you feel that you are not making enough money per hour invested, you have to ask yourself tough questions.  Getting on the forum and getting discussions going helps too.  Use every tool available.  You are in business.  You will make it or break it based on the decisions you and you alone make.

[srt]

I think that for a commodity, we have to respect commodity pricing.  The minute it goes from commodity to custom, you charge appropriately, based upon just how custom the product is.  

I build what I consider to be fairly fine cabinetry and furniture.  It took a while to get to where I am, and i still feel like there's more to learn than I've learned so far.  However, the plumber charges more per hour than I do.  Not that his trade isin't noble, but  standing on the outside, it doesn't appear that he should command more than I do.  

I've read countless stories of other cabinet makers that one day woke up and realized they were doing really custom work, and trying to charge the same as stock  off-the-shelf, manufactured prices.  The people who were paying for it were the cabinetmaker's families.  

I've read countless stories about guys in my trade lowering their prices to "better compete", and going out of business.  I'm yet to read one story of a guy raising his prices and it causing him to go out of business.  Not saying it hasn't happened, but if so, I ain't heard of it.

Something to chew on...........

Steven A. says he's as busy as he wants to be.  How about you footer - as busy as you want to be??  

[Ed_K]

 Kelvin, mowing grass and plowing snow gets a dollar a minute  here in western ma.