Finally scored an Old Town Canoe

[barbender]

After a couple of years of scouring FB marketplace, I finally scored an Old Town that is in very good condition. It came with a couple of nice paddles, and replacement wood cross pieces (are those called thwarts?) It's a Penobscot 17, I think it is Royalex construction even. It's pretty light, I think the poly ones are supposed to be around 85 pounds. This one doesn't feel nearly that heavy, I believe the Royalex versions are supposed to be around 65 pounds.



 

 

[peakbagger]

Looks like its in nice shape. A lot of Royalex hulls were used hard and will have a lot of abrasion at the bow and stern where they got dragged. There are kits available to reinforce but it looks like yours is in good shape.

There is an automotive car wax product called NuFinish that will clean up and restore the surface finish. I borrowed a penobscot that had been stored outdoors for all of its life and was looking quite faded and scuffed. I washed it and then used the NuFinish with a lot of scrubbing and rags before returning it and the person I borrowed it from thought I brought back the wrong one. My guess is the hull speed probably went up a bit. 

The boards that run from side to side are thwarts. The one in the middle is usually referred to as a yoke for carrying the canoe. A well designed yoke makes quite a difference compared to the stock yokes if someone need to do a long portage. 

[doc henderson]

nice

[firefighter ontheside]

I'm happy you got one.  It is definitely royalex and should indeed be 65lbs. The Penobscot 16 and 17 are royalex.  Newer Penobscots are something like 164 and 174.  They are polyethylene and are heavy.  I bought my 16 last year in very good shape.  It needed nothing.  A month ago I bought a Penobscot 17 that needed new seats, thwarts, yoke and needed some repair to the bow and stern due to damage like peakbagger mentions.  I used kevlar felt and G flex epoxy to make skid plates.  I used seats and thwarts that came from another canoe I'm working on to repair this one.  It turned out pretty nice.  I'll probably use this for the summer and sell it later.  Here is mine.


 

 

 

[Otis1]

Beautiful. I have a Tripper 17 that is Royalex, it also has rock guards on the bow and stern like Firefighter's. Definitely lighter than a similar length aluminum or the newer plastics. Also have a solo Discovery 119 that a friend is letting me borrow indefinitely (his wife let him get a Wenonah) I don't think it's Royalex but still reasonably light.

The interior of mine is very stained almost solid dirt color. The previous owner said he tried to clean it with a power washer with no luck. Any suggestions for material friendly cleaners? 

Somewhat related, I wood highly suggest the Sylvania Wilderness Area in the UP for people looking for a Boundary Waters type of experience. It is smaller and and easier access than BWCA, but still great fishing and camping. It used to be a hidden gem, but is pretty well traveled now and have to book campsites 6 months to a year out. I've got 3 trips up there this year starting with the first weekend in June.

[firefighter ontheside]

I would avoid harsh chemicals, but you could try a scotch brite pad or even magic eraser.  Is it fish blood or perhaps red clay.

[barbender]

This canoe has a couple of very shallow scratches in the keel, really superficial. I wouldn't mind putting skid plates on mine just as preventive maintenance like FFOTS did on his. 

 It was owned by an elderly couple who have transitioned to kayaks. I'm surprised it sat on Marketplace as long as it did, it was probably listed for 2 weeks. It was a little bit of a drive, but I had to run over that town for something else so I wrote the gal and arranged a meeting. Glad I did😊 

 The only real flaw is that is sunfaded, which I really don't care about if it doesn't affect functionality. 

[firefighter ontheside]

The mop and glo and 303 can help with the sun fading.

[barbender]

Yep, I understood that. I'm just saying, I don't care if it's sunfaded😊 Unless it is affecting the function, or actually harmful, I'll gladly paddle an ugly canoe😁

[firefighter ontheside]

Sun fading does not affect how it functions for sure.  Just want to prevent any more.  The more sun damage the outer layer of vinyl has the more brittle it becomes

[Otis1]

Well I'm not trying to hijack Barbenders thread, but also don't think this needs its own. I don't think my canoe staining is red clay or fish blood, just regular hard use by the previous owner. This canoe has been to the BWCA more than me. 

Not interested in using harsh chemicals. If it has to stay this way it's fine. Now I think I might have to make some new seats. 




 

 

[barbender]

Otis, you're not high hacking anything. Any discussion about these canoes is beneficial for all of us, not to me tion you could share a recipe and not be going against Forum etiquette 😁

[firefighter ontheside]

Looks like it could be mildew, but I would think mildew would clean off.  Perhaps the inner vinyl layer has been sun damaged and mildew has gotten into the plastic.  I imagine the only way to get rid of the black is to use something abrasive like steel wool or scotch brite, but that would also remove some of the plastic.  In moderation, that would probably be ok.  Could also use some diluted bleach and TSP and not cause any harm.

I really need to get back to the BWCAW and Quetico.  I miss it.  I bought my Penobscot with that in mind.

[peakbagger]

I have seen them mildew like that. The material is very rugged, T. IMHO, it is worth the time waxing the outside of the hull, the smoother it is the less it is to paddle. 

There may not be lot of mildewed Royalex canoes out there, but there are a lot of decks and porches with plastic decking with similar black stains. If you search the web there are lots of articles on how to remove mildew from the decking. 

[sprucebunny]

I got an Old Town recently, too. Been looking for a short canoe for a while but not very hard. Seems stupid to have a house on a lake but no canoe. I do have kayaks but need knee high boots to get anything launched and the kayak is too restrictive with the boots on.

 
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Discovery 119 Sportsman. I like the seat. All I really want it for is to float around the (small) lake with a beer.

[firefighter ontheside]

Nothing wrong with floating around a lake with a beer.  No fishing?

[K-Guy]

All I really want it for is to float around the (small) lake with a beer.

As I get older I noticed my balance and my knees aren't good enough for a canoe, so I have an inflatable pontoon boat that I've modified with a raised seat, electric trolling motor and a platform to stand on. I haven't used in much since modifying it since I also got a used 16' fishing boat. Unfortunately being that both are motorized, having a beer is for afterwards.

More power to you guys who still can use a canoe.  ;D

[sprucebunny]

Yes, my knees don't want to squeeze into a real kayak but this canoe is easy and I can use a kayak paddle. It has foot bars and is 32" wide so less tippy than a kayak.

Fresh water fish always tasted like mud to me ??? I like saltwater fish. 
The canoe has some kind of bar that you can attach stuff to and 2 rod holders behind the seat that I could make a shade 'thing' out of

[barbender]

 What are you eating, suckers and rock bass Sprucebunny?😊

 Speaking of inflatable craft, my parents gave my kids an inflatable kayak. So we took it out to our favorite little lake, and the kids wanted me to try it out. They were laughing really hard, because with my 6'5" 300 pound frame the kayak just kid of folded in half under me and looked more like some bizarre water toy😂 Oh well🤷

[doc henderson]

In a real Kayak you better know how to get out.  you wear a short/skirt thing, and it is neoprene, and a string goes into a grove.  no water gets in but if you are upside down, you better know how to right yourself, or how to pull the string and drop out upside down in the water.  or you will die!  the sporting good stores ones are plastic small canoe "open kayaks".

[Otis1]

Doc is not wrong. I used to whitewater kayak when I lived in CO. Got up to class 5 in creeks with a couple 15-20' waterfalls under my belt. I decided that was enough and I didn't want to drown in some of the really big water. 

Kayak skirts have a safety loop that you have to make sure is not tucked into the kayak and is readily accessible to pull. Once you pull the skirt it's usually not difficult to get out of the kayak, but you have to have the awareness to hold onto your boat and paddle or they could be gone.  

Of course ideally you are able to roll back up, sometimes it takes multiple times and underwater patience. Another sport where a helmet is pretty much mandatory, sometimes you're upside down with your head bouncing on rocks.

[Don P]

A spray skirt, the only one you'll see me modelling  ;D. I paddled kayaks mostly. Michelle paddled bow in our C2, an old Perception Warwoman decked canoe, all glass with the badges to show for it. I had the spray skirt and 2 thigh straps to release to get out. We never successfully rolled with both of us in it. Once she punched out I could roll it but usually could not handle it much half full from a very stern seat. I teased her, half the time her hair wouldn't get wet before she was coming out. We had an agreement that if everything was going well when we flipped I would switch sides tap the hull 3 times and we would pop up on the third tap. One of our friends was dying laughing when we got to shore after one swim. He said we both switched sides, tapped the hull and the boat rose vertically a good foot out of the water, but alas, no rolling action  :D. On one swim I had collected both paddles and a full boat, got them to shore, looked for my mate who was on the other bank with a "come hither" look... uh-huh  :D

When I worked in the canoe shop a few guys made the first run of Linville Gorge. The picture at the end said it all, one of the guys had his spray skirt on and the cockpit ring of his boat, that was all he came out with. Not big on brains but had to hand it to them for trying, I've walked the banks, they were nuts!

I was trying to find it but it must have been taken down. a couple of guys ran the blasted diversion while they were doing work on a nearby dam, a wild ride. The boats now are amazing as are the paddlers.

[barbender]

I trusted someone else's judgement once, for my first mild whitewater open canoe run. What was supposed to be easily runnable, turned out to be a stretch of class V water. That is an experience I do not care to repeat, those big boulders hurt!

[doc henderson]

I watched a brand new red fiberglass canoe wrap around a boulder like a hairpin with 2 scouts and all there gear.

[barbender]

Yeah Doc, my "guide" had told me if we spilled to hang on to the canoe, I thought that was for my safety. So I did just that, but after slamming into the sixth or seventh boulder and getting taken under by the extremely powerful current I was running out of strength to hold on to the canoe. So I let it go. Later I learned that you hold onto it so it doesn't get wrapped around a rock. In that situation I had no concern for the canoe whatsoever, I wouldn't have held on to it it in the first place, it was hard enough to keep your head above water. I got a very good, pressure test type education on that little outing. One of the few times in my life, where I thought I wasn't going to make it😬

I learned later that this particular stretch of water is known for how much it changes due to water level, class ll or lll at lower levels, IV to V at high water levels. It was the beginning of May when we made our run just after the ice went out on the lakes. It was high, it was cold, and it was angry😬

[Old Greenhorn]

One of the first things I learned during my swiftwater rescue training was that if you break free and headed downstream, get your feet up and keep them there. Around here the creeks and rivers are full of snags and strainers. Every recovery I worked on was a result of somebody getting snagged and pushed under. On one job we lost a zodiac caught up in such a snag/strainer and nearly lost a diver. The sheriffs dept. had to sink the boat with a bunch of projectile holes so that nobody would be tempted to try and recover it. That was not a fun job and took 8 hours to complete. 
 You guys be careful out on the water please!

[peakbagger]

I got an Old Town recently, too. Been looking for a short canoe for a while but not very hard. Seems stupid to have a house on a lake but no canoe. I do have kayaks but need knee high boots to get anything launched and the kayak is too restrictive with the boots on.


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Discovery 119 Sportsman. I like the seat. All I really want it for is to float around the (small) lake with a beer.

You missed out, I would have given you a nice solo cedar stripper canoe. It is perfect for a small lake but pretty useless for river canoeing as the hull design was optimized for shallow water maneuverability. I even added a keel to give it straightline control.  I switched to seak kayaks so its just sittinf in the garage. I would rather see someone use it than it to sit there. 

[Otis1]

Old Greenhorn is correct with the "safe" swimming position if you are in fast moving water. Feet first and up; that way you can push off rocks with your legs if needed, also it's your softer bottom area that will bounce off the rocks or bottom. If you do encounter a strainer, then the position changes to face first to try and quickly swim away or be in a position to try and crawl on top of it. The idea of being in one of those is terrifying. 

I did a class 5 raft trip in Alaska that they made everyone do a swim test demonstrating these ideas. If you couldn't do it then they didn't let you go. That was cold water.

[barbender]

 I was doing my best to stay facing forward and feet up. I'm only an adequate swimmer, I wouldn't consider myself a strong swimmer at all. It's also impossible for me to describe the power of that water. I'd never experienced anything like it. I'd be going along hanging on to the canoe with one arm, and we'd come to a submerged rock with a huge roller. Like I say, my intent was to be feet up and facing forward, well in that water you quickly discovered that you didn't really decide how things were going to go. I distinctly remember hearing the sound I made getting slammed into a rock, submerged, and the force of the current pressing me against the rock and pushing my breath out. I'd rebound off the rock, still submerged, and honestly didn't even know which way was up. Eventually I'd pop up, see where the canoe was and grab back onto it. I finally realized that holding on to the canoe with one arm was causing me to get spun backwards when we'd hit the boulders, that's when I said goodbye to the canoe. Actually, and fortunately, the point where I let go because I literally didn't have the strength to hit stuff the way I had been, was the end of the bad water. I was cashed and the adrenaline was gone, I couldn't even stand up. Didn't realize until I got out of the water, that my back was bruised up and I somehow managed to sprain an ankle during all of it. 

 The other guy, who is a very strong swimmer, had gotten the canoe pulled to the bank. We got it dumped and pulled out of the water. He wanted to compete the run with the one paddle we still had. There was no way I was getting back in that canoe! I limped out through the woods and found the gravel road, and he ran the canoe down to the take out.

[Otis1]

Barbender that sounds like an experience that changed your life, water is scary sometimes. Runoff, cold water, and debris are a recipe for disaster, glad you made it out ok. I've had a couple close calls myself.

Safety gear for boating isn't mentioned enough as we are all used to chaps and a helmet for work. Standard gear is a good PFD(life jacket) and throw ropes. A PFD doesn't help if you're not wearing it.

I've been in a few situations that required a throw bag/ rope and serious trust from the recipient. Like jump in the water and I will get you the rope. Luckily they've all turned out ok so far. 

Seems like this thread is getting sidetracked away from lake canoes and firefighters original post and into whitewater stuff, maybe we need a whitewater thread or a "did something dumb in the water".

[Old Greenhorn]

Barbender, you had a hell of a ride and you got lucky more than once. Glad you came out of it in one piece, even it it was a very wobbly piece for a little while. :D Seriously, that guy that told you to hang onto the canoe needed a bit more experiece. In open water/sea environments we always teach 'stay with the boat' for a lot of very good reasons. Swiftwater is a whole 'nother smoke and the 'rules' change. You know this now, but you can only (barely) navigate one vessel in that kind of water, and that vessel has to be you.
 I trained as a rescuer, not a victim. First rule for us was that we never put anybody in the water until we had a way to get them out and that was usually a '2 deep' system, in case the first one failed. We had special rigs across the waterway that had leaders hanging down at 6' intervals, so you would swing your legs downstream, look for the line as you approached it, steer a little, and grab the line hanging down, the current would sweep you off to the bank. If you missed that, further down there were personnel with special throw bags to fling you out a line and pull you out.  
 During training, every month, we spent a lot of time in the water in various situations and after a while (a long while) you get adjusted to stuff that would (the first time) scare the heck out of anybody. Playing the live victim is a routine part of the job in these training evolutions. It can also be a scary job in actual whitewater situations (as you well know). I never lost respect for the power of the water, in fact, my respect grew quite a bit. It is a powerful thing. I used to teach classes for departments that didn't have a team on "swiftwater recue awareness" and the point of the class was to show how powerful that water is and why they needed to mitigate as best they could and call a trained team in asap. 5 knot water it will move a 30,000 pound truck folks think are invincible. Someplace I probably have my powerpoint slides and I had a great chart that shows the various water speeds and relates it to how many pounds per square foot it puts on your body. Those were some sobering numbers. I'm not going to go from memory here, I'll see if I can find those slides.
 Canoeing and kayaking (tubing here also) are great sports and a LOT of fun, but if someone is going to do serious efforts in serious water, some extra training is always helpful and can be a lifesaver quite literally. Our water here goes from mundane to scary over very short periods and I think that is what gets folks in trouble.

[barbender]

OG, I agree with everything you and Otis have to say about this. The thing is, I tend to be naturally cautious and risk averse. I've always had plenty of respect for water. My mistake here was that I trusted someone else's judgement, and didn't look at all the water we were going to run. He had ran the river successfully before the fall before we went. The water was lower and he didn't realize how much this section changed due to flow. The section we had walked and scouted, was probably class ll water, no problem. We ran that, came around the next corner and I thought to myself, "wow I didn't realize you could run something like that in a canoe!" when I saw it. Well, as it turns out you can't😬

[barbender]

I should add, I was wearing a life jacket. I don't see any way I would've made it out of there. I was planning on getting dunked that day, just not to the extent that I did!😂

[doc henderson]

We pulled a lady out of the river in Colorado that fell out in white water.  she had fought so hard that she need four of us to pull her in the boat and she could not even sit up.  she was having chest pain but no option but to finish the run.  I doubt she ever went again.  We would go on guided rafts while at scout camp.  my wife and daughter went once, and my daughter was terrified to be in the boat.  In tough spots, I had a hold of her life jacket.  A dad with a bad back with his legs in the boat and his chest in the water fell half over board.  I pulled on his jacket and had the guide pull on me.  He even had trouble waking and admitted latter that he thought he would not have made it in the water, and should not have gone.  He went for his son.  It is fun to a point, but like many things in life, can get real real, very fast.

[barbender]

That's absolutely it, Doc. Anything to do with water, things get real very quickly. 

[SwampDonkey]

Find a cold spring on that lake where the brook trout are hanging out. Some good eaten. ;D

[SwampDonkey]

Be careful anywhere that's had a lot of rain or melt water recently. Take no chances.

[Otis1]

Doc I was a raft guide for only a couple of seasons, but they taught us that to pull someone in the raft that you had to dunk them first to get the extra lift from the bouyancy of the PFD. Like holding a football or float underwater and letting it go. Most people don't even realize that you've done that. 

I can attest to the effectiveness. I purposely hit a rock and dumped my dad when he wasn't paying attention, the cold water shocked him a bit more than I expected and he struggled for a bit. I gave him a good dunk and right up into the raft he came. This was only class 3, so some danger but not what Barbender experienced. At the time I was about 20 years old and 175 lb, he was about 50 years old and 250 lb. Still comes up occasionally in conversation how I both tried to kill him and save him simultaneously.

Not sure about other places, but in CO there is a website to check water levels/ CFS (cubic feet/ second) on most of the rivers. Good reference to make sure you know what you're getting into. As Barbender said, lots of rivers and creeks change drastically depending on water level. Lots of respect for moving water. 

[Old Greenhorn]

There is a natural response called a vasovagel response which is most often tied to fainting at the sight of blood or some other shocking thing like that, but it also happens when the body is thrown into cold water in a life threatening situation. The throat can close up and reduce or cut off air to the lungs. Doc can have a more detailed explanation, but it's a common thing seen in water rescues. Catching somebody off guard like that can be a risky thing sometimes.

[firefighter ontheside]

Barbender did you put that boat in the water yet?
I just bought another old town.

[barbender]

I have had it out exactly once. It did what I wanted in the water- floated without leaking. I guess I would say it handles similarly to the old aluminum canoe I was using, at least not anything that jumped out at me as far as lake paddling and stability. What did jump out at me was how much lighter it was to portage in a mile. A real pleasure that way, at least compared to the aluminum tank😬