Beam load question for log turning

[memopad]

The best solution to my log turning problem would be hydraulics. Since that isn't a viable solution right now, I have to get creative!

I have a 30" diameter 12ft long white pine log on the mill right now. When it comes time to position the log and rotate it as I'm making a cant, it's nearly impossible to turn with my 4ft long cant hook and various levers I have at my disposal. Impossible is the wrong word, but I'm trying not to throw my back out.

A while back I saw someone had made a frame with a winch on top that rolled down the mill rails and could be positioned over a log to help turn it. That's a brilliant idea and something I was going to do for myself. The slight issue with that is I don't have a welder, and I'm trying to DIY everything so sticking with things I can build from wood is ideal, and this leads to my next idea.

I have my mill under a roof now, basically a lean-to roof off the side wall of a pole barn. I'm wondering if it's possible to install some beams over the mill, spanning the 12 feet from pole barn wall to lean-to wall, and use that as an anchor to winch logs around. Since this would mostly be used to parbuckle a log or cant and rotate it, I'm not sure how much actual load I'd be putting on the beam. I tried using the midspan point loaded beam calculator in the tools section but I'm not really sure how to use it. What size beam would I need to lift say 1000lbs at the midpoint of a 12ft span? 

Thanks for help and reality checks. The metal frame that rolls down the mill I think is the ultimate solution for my situation as it would also help position logs fore and aft down the mill bed.

[woodman52]

As I see it the problem with a beam is you would be loading your open span structure with half the weight of what you're picking up.  Have you thought of a simple jib crane mounted on the wall of the pole barn.  It would not even have to rotate. It would be better if it did but simpler if it is fixed. This could be made of wood, you would have to be careful with the joints. 

[rastis]

I use a farm jack I modified with hooks to turn the big stuff I can't do with a cant hook

[charles mann]

What equipment are you loading the logs onto the mill with? 

[beenthere]

 have my mill under a roof now, basically a lean-to roof off the side wall of a pole barn. I'm wondering if it's possible to install some beams over the mill, spanning the 12 feet from pole barn wall to lean-to wall, and use that as an anchor to winch logs around. Since this would mostly be used to parbuckle a log or cant and rotate it, I'm not sure how much actual load I'd be putting on the beam. I tried using the midspan point loaded beam calculator in the tools section but I'm not really sure how to use it. What size beam would I need to lift say 1000lbs at the midpoint of a 12ft span?

Add more beam to that open space. The single beam you have may be at its limit, but double up or triple up should give you the needed support. Looks to be only bolted to the posts which is marginal at best as I see it.

[memopad]

The main span is a little under 18ft and it is sitting on posts. It's 4 ply 2x6 with the beam sitting on 2 plys of the post. There are 2x12 headers between the posts that are just structural lags to the face of the post that you're seeing more easily in the photo.

Any beam spanning over the sawmill would probably go from post to post, I think that would be fine. The beam supporting the opening in the lean-to is actually fairly far down the mill, most of my milling is closer to the far end of the sawmill in that photo above.

Also not shown in the photo, I have since added a header across both opening ends of the lean-to, and filled in the triangle above that to the rafter line. I will build doors under that on each end for moving the mill in the future.

[memopad]

This shows a slightly better view of what I'm working with. I've thought about a wall mounted jib crane but wasn't sure if that would be putting too much lateral stress on my posts.

[memopad]

What equipment are you loading the logs onto the mill with?

Using forks on a tractor loader. Eventually I want to have my logs staged on a deck that I can roll onto the mill so the tractor isn't used every time I load a log. The tractor works well now, but on the bigger logs there isn't enough room to move the loader arms above the log once it's on the mill, my opening beam only leaves about 6'6 headroom. 

[Andries]

You might be over thinking this a bit memopad.
Make up one of these, a chain and a cant hook (aka: 'magic hook' a very searchable term on this Forum).

Then use it with your forks thisaway.
For the occasional honking big log, this works really well.
If you're doing oversize logs all day every day, maybe a more permanent set up is needed.

[blackhawk]

Logrite 78" Megahook.  I have 2, best money that I ever spent.  Megahook

[memopad]

Forks won't work, especially once I build a log deck. I don't want to use the tractor.

Big cant hook seems of limited value. Last night on my awkwardly shaped log, trying to stand up the cut face to the log stops was a real chore. I had to enlist my dad to push the log stops in place while I held the log with my cant hook. I'm 6'5 and my arms weren't log enough to do both.

I want a self contained system that can help maneuver the occasional big log without me muscling it around. Mechanical advantage at it's finest. 

[btulloh]

You're just rolling the log snd not lifting the entire weight, so it's not a really large load. Probably 1k lbs at most for a big honker.  Many people are using a 2500 lb winch to turn the log and not coming close to stressing the winch.  Quite a few are made with 2" square tube with a small gusset in the corner.  I think some mill manufacturers even sell them like that. You can probably just add a beefed up rafter in your leanto and it would be fine. Should be an easy solution.  Using a magic hook on your winch turner will make a good combo.  

You also should have at least a 60" cant hook around the mill anyway. 72" if you have a lot of 25" and up logs.  

[scsmith42]

We routinely mill long, large logs that are too much for the log turner on Tom the Baker mill.  Most of the time we'll wrap nylon slings around the log and use forks to lift the slings and turn the log.

Since that's not an option for you, I'd consider mounting an I-beam to the bottom of your rafters - attaching it to several so as to spread the load across multiple rafters.  Attach a trolley to the I-beam and a chain hoist or winch to the trolley.

I use a similar setup for unloading large beams off of the mill. Here is my setup.  We fabricated it all in house - almost totally from my scrap pile.  It's designed to pick up to 1 ton.  Span is 30'



 



The beam is cantilevered off of the end of the shelter (asymmetrical load) in order to provide enough clearance for 12' tall equipment to drive underneath it.  Bracing is triangulated in multiple planes for added stability.



 


When I built this setup I bought a used CM 1 ton hoist which unfortunately smoked the reversing contactor the first time that I used it, so the interim solution was to use a chain hoist until I sourced a replacement contactor.  The setup works great!  The 12x12 below weighs around 1000 lbs.



 

You could install something similar to the bottom side of your rafters.  I think that it would be critical to bolt it into multiple rafters so that each one was only supporting 150lbs or so of an estimated 3000 lb log load.

[SawyerTed]

I like the way Mr Smith thinks.  I was thinking of the many uses of an I beam and beam trolley hoist.  

Turning logs is one, repositioning logs lengthwise on the mill, supporting the mill head during repair and pulling out the log that gets away over the log stops.  

[caveman]

My suggestion was going to be much like SCSmith's.  That would enable you to move it fore and aft as well as turn it.  Most of the time you would not be lifting the whole weight of the log and a winch or chain hoist above with a magic hook or a wrap of chain or strap would easily roll the log or cant.  

A lever and a place to stand is always an option.  A longer handle on a canthook will give you a good advantage.  We sawed a lot of big logs on a manual mill for quite a few years before we bought one with hydraulics.  

[Don P]

My mind was wandering this way. It can swing to cover some territory and a trolley to adjust in/out.. somehow it ended up in a friends canning kitchen sketch.

[memopad]

My mind was wandering this way. It can swing to cover some territory and a trolley to adjust in/out.. somehow it ended up in a friends canning kitchen sketch.

There are usually a handful of wall mount jib cranes for sale on my local marketplace. Right now there is a 1/4 ton rated one with a 10ft span that comes with a trolley. Might be a little on the light side but I think it would be adequate for turning the occasional log, especially since the log would be about midway across the crane and not at the end.
If I went the jib crane route (seems like a simple solution for now), are there any considerations for attaching it to a triple laminated 2x6 post? I'd feel better if it was going through the layers of the post, but the holes would be going through the 2in portion of the boards, not the 6in. Predrill the holes and run a bolt through to a backing plate on the other side?
Any worry about snapping the post off with a lateral load?

[jpassardi]

Since you have a machine with forks for getting logs on the mill, have you considered building a winch powered claw log turner?
You could get a low $ HF fluxcore welder assuming you have the fabrication skills.
Between that and my large Logrite I can turn/hold/re-clamp 95% of logs/cants.

[woodman52]

If you are worried about the strength of the post you could turn it into a 10x8 by adding 2 inch boards to 3 sides. Just go to ground level, you would need a many tons of force to shear a 6x6.

[Don P]

The horizontal reaction at the wall post in response to the vertical load is related to the leverage ratio of beam and post.

With a 10' post and a 6' beam, a half ton load on the end of the beam produces 600 lbs of horizontal pull on the building.




If the same load is out on the end of a 10' beam the horizontal reaction is 1000 lbs





It's one of those situations where the answer is exactly what it looks like. The ratios of the lengths of the sides is the same ratio as that of the forces at work. They printed over themselves but the tension on the top one is 60 units, and in the lower its 100 units. You can "solve" this graphically, by drawing to scale and measuring things.