I am needing some suggestions/recommendations regarding my SYP floor. I stained it with Minwax Special Walnut stain and it will dry/cure for a week.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/flooring1.jpg)
A water base poly sounds good especially with the "no fumes". Brush it or roll it?
I want a hard/durable finish and gloss is not important.
Hey MM,
You know what I am going to say, just my two cents, so please disregard if you really like the poly.
If you take all factors into consideration, of application, maintenance, touch ups if required, durability-longevity and of course when (not if) you refinish...oh? wait thats right, with natural oils you don't have to refinish EVER, you just clean well and reapply more oil if the mood and wear patterns bother you.
Love the way the floor look MM, great job! :o 8) :o ;D
Jay, you said all of that and did not say specifically what you would use. I have no problem whatsoever with an oil finish.
I guess that my thread title was limiting although it did have a ? so I added a "whatever". D
Sorry about that Brother, my mistake. Well first call my friends at:
http://www.heritagenaturalfinishes.com/
They love to talk "natural finishes," and sell all types of mixes you may want samples for.
I like a mix of bees wax, pine rosin, tung oil, linseed oil, and a citrus oil carrier and drying agent for the lot of the group. Good old plain tung oil is fine by itself and has been around for ever. I only use the pure grades, no chemical dryers or "foreign" stuff in the oil. Hope that helps, let me know if I can share anymore?
Regards,
jay
All I know about water base poly is it raises the grain, due to the water in it. You'd have to sand again after the first coat. I'm not sold on water based finishes yet, but I know lots of people use them now.
Thanks tyb, for the heads up about raising the grain and sanding. That eliminates water base.
Jay, Your source recommended "CONCENTRATED FINISHING OIL". Is that OK used over the Minwax stain that I have already applied?
I don't see any reason why not, unless there was some silicone additives in it. It's not my favorite stain manufacture, but I know of no one to have problems with staining first, except the ones with silicone. (look at the MSDS for silicon.)
The orange oil will soak all the other ingredients right into the wood, and most likely carry some of the stain deeper into the softer wood grains. Get a little can of what you want and do some test samples, I think you will truly enjoy working with it. In twenty years I have not had one person ever turn away for this product. The old fellow that use to mix it in his barn was a friend of mine, and said the formulas that he used are ancient, He called it "landark." He would only sell to folks he knew, but as the word spread, especially among timber framers and historical restoration professionals, he started to do it full time. Now the same mixes and formulas are being done by "Heritage Finishes."
Good luck, and let me know if I can help more.
I have used several floor finishes with good results. The last floor I did I used Minwax. Applied with a mop gadget which was a first for me. I'll not do that again but it did come out looking good, just too many drips when I was applying it. I really think most floor finishes are close in performance.
I hired the floor done in our new house. The contractor used PoloPlaz (http://www.poloplaz.com/) which after a year looks perfect. He is semi-retired but gets all the high dollar jobs, so I think he knows what works.
The one thing I usually do is put down two coats of gloss as that is the most wear resistant, followed by a third finish coat which has been satin. I have used gloss as my final coat...kids and dogs will knock it down to satin soon nuff. Scuff sand between coats. It doesn't take much.
Get a good light you can shine on the floor as you finish to see any imperfections. Good luck on your floor.
Lynn, most of my customers are "do it yourselfers". The majority of them use water-based urethane as it is not necessary to sand between coats. I haven't heard of any complaining with the results. I did a rental property (Wahoo Blue Pine) ;), 10" planks, with the water-based. The results were good and after two years the finish still looks new.
Mark
Mark
And we are still talking of this finish for flooring? I assumed that, but just like to be sure.
I have used a zinseer product, If I remember it is called puppy proof floor finish
I do remember it is a 2 part epoxy floor finis
the small bottle of epoxy is added at the store and then well shaken
then you have like 48 hours to put it down
I will search to see if it still is avalaible
limited research I find some 2 part paint and epoxy from zinseer but not the specific urethane I reffered to
the 2 part epoxy seemed to hold up much better than the first two floors I re did with just urethane
Quote from: beenthere on June 16, 2013, 10:52:14 AM
Mark
And we are still talking of this finish for flooring? I assumed that, but just like to be sure.
Yes, flooring, but some have used it on paneling, also.
Mark
Lynn is that kiln dried pine? If not do you think you'll have problems with the knots "bleeding" sap in the future?
The wall paneling as well as the flooring was KD. The Minwax stain that I used was oil based.
I might be a bit hesitant about applying that much water based anything, 'cause if that flooring swelled. :o
If you don't mind oil based finishes, I'm not sure why water based would be any better. But I bet someone will inform me ;D
Even ignoring the swelling & grain rising from waterbased poly, I've used waterbased poly over stain before, and it pretty much retains the color and depth of the applied stain. In other words, it looks bland and flat. I put waterbased on unstained pine and didn't like the results because of how bland it was - no depth or warmth at all. I'd even go as far to say that waterbased poly makes real wood look like fake panelling. Oil will warm it up a bit and bring some depth.
Water based finishes tend to raise the grain on many woods, particularly soft woods. I have seen it raise grain on both hard and soft, but not to the extent that it does on softwoods. This can be remedied by light sanding, which is not a bad practice between coats anyway, but is more labor. Oil finishes can sometimes, but rarely, also raise grain, but not to the same extent as water based products.
There has been reference by several folks of additional urethane finishes, such as you would find on a basketball court or commercial dance floor. I would never try to debate the surface strength of these professional urethanes or many of the floor finishing epoxies. They are undeniably strong and resistant, but as I mentioned earlier, when (not if) you have to reference the surface they are applied to, it is a gruelling task to say the least.
I completely own my bias and support MM in whatever he chooses to use, but as a traditional woodworker, I would just add that oil finishes have been used successfully for thousands of years, are still found on the oldest wood floors in existence and are much easier to maintain and reapply when the time comes for refinishing, yet still provide a wonderful and enduring finish. Another point of urethane and epoxy finishes, and this is completely subjective, they make the wood look like they have been dipped in plastic, which in a since they have. I personally don't care for that artificial augmentation of wood covered in plastic, and much prefer the subtle and nuanced effect of natural finishes.
What he said. :D
Tyb , the only thing better about water-based finishes is that they dry fast and don't smell like oil. Is a quick and shiny job - two dogs after a cat can spoil that job just as quick.
I like oil finishes too, like Jay said they are easy to refinish, and they penetrate the wood instead of just being a film on the surface. They don't flake off like polyurethane might if damaged. IMO they also bring out the grain in the wood better.
We mill flooring out of reclaimed woods both soft and hard. People pay a lot for this unique wood I hate to see them cover it with plastic. I always recommend WaterLox. It is a tung oil finish. best price and great people at paintsource.net. Also you can go to waterlox.com to look at what they say about there product.
Hell MM, et. al.,
I was debating whether to post this, or not, as I did not want to sound too critical of yet another product. I have a bias toward "corporations," in general and don't trust many of them, so forgive me for my circumspect nature when it comes to a manufactured products.
I know that Waterlox is an old company, they may have at one time actually made some wonderful products, but not any more for the cost of what they sell many of their products for today. I won't go into one of my long stories, but suffice it to say, most companies "hated," when the government, (this time it seems they did something correct,) required percentages by weight to be printed on their MSDS documents of active ingredients.
It was brought to my attention by several traditional woodworkers years ago to alway read the MSDS first, and to understand I should try to get more than the companies first printing of them for a product. The reason to really dig, is apparently there is a real battle between the corporations and the administrative folks that oversee the MSDS product sheets. These folks are always digging for more facts and a clear documentation in the MSDS statement, but seldom get it, and some companies end up in court fighting not to put all the details down. Here is just another example, as it was explained to me as I use to recommend
Waterlox Tung Oil finishes, I do not any more. The following is from Waterlox's MSDS for their Tung Oil finish:
73.77% weight Stoddard Solvent
2.0% weight 1,2,4 - Trimethylbenzene
0.13% weight Ethylbenzene
0.16% weight Cobalt Naphthenate
23.94% weight Ester Gum, Phenolic Resin, and some Tung Oil
As you can see, and I was shocked to learn this as well, there is very little of the most expensive components in their now very "corporate" finishes. You can further note, that of these "focal point" elements of the finisher like the Tung Oil, the component you actually bought the product for, there is not any clear breakdown of its amount by weight. If you take the time to actually read the document you have to "dig," through the whole thing till at the last pages where there is a small "blurb" about, "Ester Gum, Phenolic Resin, and Tung Oil." You have to go back and do the math yourself to actually see what percentage of the product is in "their" Tung Oil.
I guess, what bothers me, is that this finish can, and does work. As it is a thinned out Tung Oil, and with several applications will probably give an "O.K. finish," but what am I paying for, and what quality Tung Oil are they using? If I took the cost of Waterlox Tung Oil finish, and took the percentage of of Tung Oil in it at cost, I would be paying for a low grade tung oil and solvent at an inflated price. I now either mix my own or buy from a traditional mixer.
I hope you take this information in the good spirit it is intended. Give me whatever feedback you would like. I will gladly listen and dialog about it.
Warm Regards,
jay
P.S. Several folks have asked offline for links that I use, these are them, and they both are great folks to deal with. You can buy mixed or just the components for your own finishes. Higher price, but super high quality. If You mix your own in the "Waterlox" formulation a little can go a long way, I tend to like a richer mix.
http://www.heritagenaturalfinishes.com/
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/powder.html
Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on June 21, 2013, 09:14:35 AMI was debating whether to post this, or not, as I did not want to sound too critical of yet another product......
I would hate for you
not to post this information. The reason that I started a new thread regarding floor finish is that everyone might not be interested in the Cabin Addition thread and a floor finish discussion might not ensue. I wanted a broad discussion so that I could make an informed decision.
I did notice in the Waterlox site that I would need at least 3-4 applications of sealer and a couple of applications of the finish. This seemed a bit much for my limited available time, but I still appreciated the Tung Oil suggestion from GAmillworker.
I have always been partial to oil finishes.
MM...Use an oil finish. easy to apply and easy to maintain. it offers no scuff or impact resistance, but it is a pine floor in a cabin, so the more "distress" it gets, the better it will look. I would block sand over the high spots and take off some of that color before laying down the finish. It will help visually define the individual boards. Also, the solids that minwax uses do not penetrate in any way. they will always lay on top. as such, you wont get the same level of penetration with the oil finish that you otherwise would on an unstained surface.
A word about waterborne finishes: Their only advantage is that they are somewhat less toxic. in every other respect, they are inferior to oil and petroleum based finishes. The gold standard for floors is a 2 part Urethane. they are bulletproof and will outlast anything else out there. definitely not cheap though. excellent work BTW.
Owen, I recently used some of the Heritage Natural Finish that Jay recommended on a large timberframe project, and was extremely pleased with the product, the company, and the results.
In my instance, I used the "original finish", but they may have others more suitable for flooring as opposed to green timbers.