My skid steer operator Tim came to me this morning.
Big Bob wouldn't start the 3 studs that hold the starter on all broke off.
We got one out.
I'm going to try and weld a nut on one and try to remove it. The other one is broke off much deeper. I ordered some left handed drill bits and will try that.
How do I find replacement studs ? The part that goes in the housing looks course thread the outer part fine.
Any help or hints would be appreciated.
Bruno
Take one into a machine shop not a hard job to gauge the threads and remake the studs
Dealer should have a part number
A thread gauge and caliper is how a machine shop would determine what they are. Fastenal probably tell what they are for free and sell you replacement if they have it.
Download a "tap drill index" pdf and that will give you info on whats standard. Mcmaster or MSC probably have those style studs. Or maybe silver-seal products. Like ocean seal not roofing seal. Maybe goodson's, jegs, summit.. even napa.
Honestly the starter has through holes. It isnt gonna care too much if you just get bolts threaded in, as long as there is some type of dowel or register so it stays where it belongs. If the studs were holding and locating then yeah you might need the correct ones.
Are they blind holes or through holes? Can you get a nut on the back of a bolt or does it have to thread into the block?
The deep one you may try drilling a pretty big hole. Then taper grind a sacrificial allen socket and hit the stud with a torch. Immediately after heat smash the allen socket into the hole so it broaches it own flutes and then hit it the impact to back it out or drive it thru if thats an option. The bigger the hole the better but try not to go sideways into the threads. If you do break into the threads oh well. That will help the bolt collapse and free up. On a milling machine i drill them until the only thing left is a helicoil and peel them out with a pick like curly wire.
Good luck Bruno. I hate those kinds of problems.
Hello Bruno.
IIRC big bob has a perkins?
IIRC, the hexagonal head of the bolts on mine are 14mm.
And i can't remember which thread it is. Either M10 or M12
My opinion, forget the studs, put bolt screws in there.
Mind you, i wonder why the starter's three studs broke at the same time.
HTH.
IIRC repeated starter grinding by a previous employee, metal fatigue. There is a good chance 2 have been broken and the third finally let go. Check the starter and flywheel gears while its out to make sure they didn't get munched...With 'chinery its always sumthin.
Right on Don. Bob has had a few starter replacement jobs recently? If the studs were torqued to or near stretch point this was bound to happen. Sorry to hear it Bruno
I would maybe upgrade to harder bolts, see what the torque spec. is, and check back after so many hours to see if their still tight. And hope with a good operator it doesn't happen again.
any luck Bruno? I've found that some manifold bolts are coarse on one side and fine on the other, is that how your starter was set up?
Quote from: GRANITEstateMP on July 22, 2021, 06:09:21 PM
any luck Bruno? I've found that some manifold bolts are coarse on one side and fine on the other, is that how your starter was set up?
Yes course into the housing fine thread holds on the starter
Today I finally had time to work on Big Bob.
I didn't know it but my helper tried removing one of the bolts. He didn't do well.
I had to drill it out and ordered a helicoil kit for it.
The other one was broke off a 1/2 in . Took the broken part drilled a hole in the center used what thread were left and put it in. The drilled it with a left handed drill bit it came right out like butter.
I wish he left the other one alone. Oh well
I'm also thinking about buying the new engine my BIL has for this machine .
Replacing all the hoses .
There is lots to like about this machine, no electronics and no epa stuff. Very simple
It's a great mill yard machine lifts all I need,loads semi trucks and easy on fuel.
Put some new windows in it and build a door . Add a heater.
I will have way less money in it for what it can lift .
Quote from: Bruno of NH on August 08, 2021, 02:03:12 PM
Today I finally had time to work on Big Bob.
I didn't know it but my helper tried removing one of the bolts. He didn't do well.
I had to drill it out and ordered a helicoil kit for it.
The other one was broke off a 1/2 in . Took the broken part drilled a hole in the center used what thread were left and put it in. The drilled it with a left handed drill bit it came right out like butter.
I wish he left the other one alone. Oh well
If mine was bigger. Not newer or faster, just bigger, it would make it a lot easier to justify time and money on.
I would rather have a broken 1080 than a broken 742.
Update on Big Bob
The starter is gone again.
No rebuilding this time.
Got a new one on order.
Going to buy a new injection pump. I'm going to try and do it myself.
The skid steer I been using an 873 blew the bottom main hose . Let me tell you no fun to get out or put back in.
20" long hose and fitting $310
Hope to have the 873 back running today.
Big Bob has much more room to work on stuff , the main hoses are under the cab the tilts forward.
Any advice on the injection pump ?
Dont be surprised if you need to cut and weld some special gooseneck wreches to get at buried bolts. Youd better be familiar with the timing procedure before you start. A slew of wobble sockets, extensions and fine drive ratcheting wrenches and stuff will always make this type of work easier and are paid for by not paying the mechanic $90/hr to use his.
Figure out what engine and pump you have then check youtube university to figure out what youre up against.
Room to work is pretty valuable IMO. Id love to have a big bob
I know I will have to pull the radiator because it's held in with 4 bolts behind the timing cover. And 3 on the block
The 873 needs the same one on top of the one we just replaced. Couldn't tell that one was leaking .
More fun :D
Just for your information, broken starter studs and housings are normally caused by engaging the starter while the engine is already running and/or running the starter to assist an engine that is not running fast enough at starting.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on September 15, 2021, 12:42:30 PM
Update on Big Bob
The starter is gone again.
No rebuilding this time.
Got a new one on order.
Going to buy a new injection pump. I'm going to try and do it myself.
The skid steer I been using an 873 blew the bottom main hose . Let me tell you no fun to get out or put back in.
20" long hose and fitting $310
Hope to have the 873 back running today.
Big Bob has much more room to work on stuff , the main hoses are under the cab the tilts forward.
Any advice on the injection pump ?
I wish a lot of my hoses were that cheap! 3 years ago, 3 hoses @ 8' long each....wife comes home with credit card receipt and I'm thinking maybe $1,200 - $1,500. WRONG. $2,500+ You never get to know the pain until you own it and want to keep it running.
Advice on the injection pump :
- do it at your shop, not in the field.
- Pressure wash it until it is clean BEFORE you begin. Keep washing as you disassemble as needed to keep things clean. Steam is great, hot water is good.
- While you have the radiator out, get it 100% see through clean and straighten any bent fins to restore cooling efficiency. Sometimes this can take days.
- If you have never tried Schaeffer's Citrol, now is the time. Don't waste your time with the aerosol cans, get the gallons and mix in a pump up sprayer. Yes, it is expensive but *DanG does it work well. Likely the best degreaser I've ever tried.
- Get or make the timing pin(s) needed for your engine. Easy to make on a metal lathe. Set the pin(s) before you pull or loosen the pump. Mark your timing with a prick punch for reference.
- Be meticulously clean, surgically clean, for best results with that pump.
- Read the books, watch the videos and do it all again a couple of times before actually doing the change out. Think of it as studying for the test and the results will be better.
I do lots of repairs in the field but when it comes to major expensive repairs, I only do them at the shop. Especially stuff that calls for cleanliness. No chance for some wanker to mess something up while it's left alone on a jobsite in pieces if I take it to the shop.
Just by chance I discovered that putting degreaser into a silver fire extinguisher and adding air pressure will get the degreaser to foam like there is no tomorrow. Gets into more crevices and sticks to the machine really well.
Bruno.
There is a cover opposite the pump, with 4 screws, iirc something like 3/8 or 1/2 head.
Then under there the gear, with 3 screws, pretty sure it's 3/8, or 10mm. There is a metal piece behind,kind of a wafer, with a half moon key. If you're lucky, the replacement pump will come with it. And then you have no timing to do. Put the mark on the block and the mark on the pump in line, and it works straight out of the box. Well, on my crane, it was pretty easy, as i have plenty of room there, unlike the starter!
I have done two on a turbo AT4.236 on my crane. And one on a non turbo A4.236 which i sold.
It looks pretty much like this. My timing cover was different.
Injector pump replacement. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/KSk6-E5Xrqo)
Hope this helps.
Here, just bellow the oil feed tube.
I miss playing with engines! But not the engines on my equipment!
Perkins A4.236 #2 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/jE-Xoxfpqec)
Doing a pump job for the first time is a gamble. I had a diesel mechanic come in and do mine on the 1044.
If you are off on the timing a little it will not run right. And you will be into it again. I cut lumber, I let the mechanic do his thing and I do mine. It cost $$$$ but if it's not right the mechanic will have to come back to fix it on his time.
For me, a bobcat at a sawmill is a waste of time. A lull with the reach of 30' in front of you can be priceless, lift 10,0000 lb and put it where you want.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_2652~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1592348547)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_2654.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1593352093)
Imo, I do wish you the best of luck,
PS.Don't buy a cat anything. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22511/SAM_2651~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1592348548)
This is what junk looks like going down the road, :-X
The 873 , found one more hose in the bottom.
Up to 3 now ;)
Fun stuff
And just think how many kids pay to go to tech school. All you need to do is buy a machine and the education will commence!
I'm glad I'm learning
smiley_thumbsup
think positive. long term stress and negativity will run you down and wreck your health. walk away as needed.
Seems like you been pretty busy for quite some time. Why don't you replace it instead of jacking around with something constantly breaking down 🤷♂️
Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 17, 2021, 03:05:31 PM
Seems like you been pretty busy for quite some time. Why don't you replace it instead of jacking around with something constantly breaking down 🤷♂️
I'm working on some business deals that will add to my sawing. I'm going to have to invest in a couple more pieces of sawing equipment for that.
Big Bob will have to wait.
I want a small wheel loader .
I will need to save much more money.
Big Bob has a high lifting capacity which put you into big money .
I'm not sure if any new skid steers that lift that much.
Bob lifts 3,700 and has a 7,200 tipping
A few wheeled machines and plenty of tracked machines that will lift that much weight and more. And do it more reliably than a 30+ year old used up piece of construction equipment.
I'm all for running old iron but when you need it to earn a living you need something that is ready to go anytime and earn its keep.
really guys? 3 hoses and you tell him buy a new machine? like that wont needed hoses and starters over time ?
Aren't the hoses on an 873 that hes borrowing or renting because his old 974? is down?
Its one thing after another. Must be something going on if the starter bolts are an ongoing issue. Talking about an injector pump? Injectors? List goes on.
When you make money sawing lumber. If you have to stop sawing to be a mechanic, or because you can't load logs, or load customers, etc then you are pi$$ing away money 2x (cost of repairs and lost revenue).
He mentioned buying a new motor for it. New windows. Building a door. Adding heat.
All of that into an old machine that is probably one major part away from being obsolete or in need of re-engineering because of unavailable parts.
you might be right about the hoses for borrowed machine.. ive been skimming.
i figure if he could afford another machine we wouldnt be having these discussions in the first place. hed have posted a thread called help me spend my money. not help me fix my machine.
He needs a wheel loader of whatever vintage he can afford. Skid steer is a major compromise to begin with.
Two paths to success;
1. Run with no debt and pay cash.
2. Run with debt on equipment that is new enough to run.
People with exceptional mechanical skills can cut a few corners but unless you own all your stuff outright you best be working with it and not on it.
You have the orders to pump out $1k a day in sales; a 2k a month payment on a machine that lets you run every day is not an expense. Its a must especially if you have an employee and a sawmill payment. A starter here, a few hoses there, 10 gallons of hydro fluid and 3 lost days of production pays for a brand new wheel loader that you are building equity in not mention filling orders as promised. People understand your loader broke down but they remember that they lost time when the item wasn't delivered as promised.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on September 17, 2021, 07:10:20 PM
Aren't the hoses on an 873 that hes borrowing or renting because his old 974? is down?
Its one thing after another. Must be something going on if the starter bolts are an ongoing issue. Talking about an injector pump? Injectors? List goes on.
When you make money sawing lumber. If you have to stop sawing to be a mechanic, or because you can't load logs, or load customers, etc then you are pi$$ing away money 2x (cost of repairs and lost revenue).
All valid points Sir
The 873 is my friends machine it's very used up.
It broke down in my use and I will fix it.
I don't like throwing money at Big Bob for that one reason , some part won't be available.
I know it's just a matter of time.
Quote from: stavebuyer on September 17, 2021, 07:27:47 PM
He needs a wheel loader of whatever vintage he can afford. Skid steer is a major compromise to begin with.
Two paths to success;
1. Run with no debt and pay cash.
2. Run with debt on equipment that is new enough to run.
People with exceptional mechanical skills can cut a few corners but unless you own all your stuff outright you best be working with it and not on it.
You have the orders to pump out $1k a day in sales; a 2k a month payment on a machine that lets you run every day is not an expense. Its a must especially if you have an employee and a sawmill payment. A starter here, a few hoses there, 10 gallons of hydro fluid and 3 lost days of production pays for a brand new wheel loader that you are building equity in not mention filling orders as promised. People understand your loader broke down but they remember that they lost time when the item wasn't delivered as promised.
I'm very busy and have been asked to saw wide pine boards for a company, so many bdft a month. Plus sawing pallet boards for a pallet repair company.
I'm just worried about adding debt right now. I finally got this business reputation built up and moving lot of lumber.
Bruno,
Please take this as advice and not criticism. I been there and done that more than once working with junk older than I was. I was loaned a JD 344 loader that was in decent shape for its age other than needing tires. I put 4 tires on it, the help ran it low on oil and locked up the engine which I got a buddy to rebuild. Not long after the engine rebuild the transmission went out which ended up at John Deere for that rebuild to tune of 10k.
Tires, engine, transmission and about 2 months down time. Thankfully I had multiple income streams and more than one loader but there was many a time that would have sunk me.
I followed your progress and know that maybe your not in a position to buy a late model loader. The thing is with Big Bob you have a double handicap in that its not the best machine for the task even when it was new.
A wheel loader will be more productive as well as much easier to work on and source parts for. Get there as soon as you can and keep upgrading. If you are buying logs and selling lumber the loader is the most important piece of equipment you have. Nothing happens without it. Its more critical than the mill itself.
A bookkeeper once told my roommate, that if he's paying more in repairs (per month) than a monthly payment on a newer machine, it's time to dump the old machine and upgrade to something else.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on September 18, 2021, 04:06:20 PM
A bookkeeper once told my roommate, that if he's paying more in repairs (per month) than a monthly payment on a newer machine, it's time to dump the old machine and upgrade to something else.
Jim Rogers
Jim
Over what period of time does he make the decision to upgrade?
Quote from: beenthere on September 18, 2021, 04:22:01 PM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on September 18, 2021, 04:06:20 PM
A bookkeeper once told my roommate, that if he's paying more in repairs (per month) than a monthly payment on a newer machine, it's time to dump the old machine and upgrade to something else.
Jim Rogers
Jim
Over what period of time does he make the decision to upgrade?
Sorry don't know that.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on September 18, 2021, 04:06:20 PM
A bookkeeper once told my roommate, that if he's paying more in repairs (per month) than a monthly payment on a newer machine, it's time to dump the old machine and upgrade to something else.
Jim Rogers
I would include time spent on the repair, lost production, opportunity cost, etc. in that calculation. Those are all relevant to the cost of operating a machine.
Good luck Bruno, however you proceed.
Glad to hear about your new opportunity for revenue.
thats an excellent decision process for a corporation where no one man is the entire company. where there is a team to carry the load and investors have pooled capital to make it happen. it does not consider the actual life that goes on in the background of a sole proprietor with only his personal credit score and personal assets to back him up.
does he have the available credit left to buy the new machine without putting his home up for collateral? does he have the ability to make the note if he slips on a patch of ice and blows his knee out for the last time? if he ends up on disability for a while due to injury, maybe he can keep his home and sawmill. the more stuff he signs up to pay for, the more chance he gets liquidated if something goes wrong.
we'd all love a new machine. only bruno can measure out whether he can do it or not. it might be the absolute best decision, but its one we shouldnt be pressuring him to make in order to appease our opinions. ive held a baby while my bobcat was broken and ive held a baby while the auctioneer was selling off my house. you can imagine which one hurt more. we need to help the guy do whatever it is he decides to do to ensure the best outcome.
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on September 18, 2021, 04:38:41 PMJim Rogers
Doubt that the bookkeeper knows that either. Easy to say and just looks good on "da books". ;D
I don't know about in your area, but buying a new machine wouldn't be an option here, anyway. I've been looking at track loaders for little while, have 3 different models of brands I'm interested in, and have literally only been able to sit in one, simply because there aren't any available. So even if I wanted a newer machine, I couldn't get one for months.
I've always been of the opinion that the wrong time to buy a new piece of equipment is when the old one is broken down. It leads to rushed thinking, compromise, bad deals, over paying, etc. I'm more of a get it running, then look for a replacement, and seamlessly phase the old out and slide the new piece in. For example, I ordered a new truck in Spring, its now Fall and should be here by Christmas. The guy said it would take awhile, and I said I don't care because my other truck is running fine.
However, broken down and out of action is not a productive thing either, so to me, fixing it if it can be fixed would be paramount, quickly and cheaply, by whatever method, then look at other options without the monkey on my back.
If the delay to fix is too long, or unsustainable, I would rent or in the case of my Cat forklift, lease to own, which is cheaper than a rental, but has a few more strings attached. It also allowed me to apply that lease money toward a different machine if the current one wasn't to my liking. In the case of our forklift, we leased for awhile, then eventually bought it. Leasing or renting doesn't require assuming large debt up front and guarantees a working piece of equipment. If it breaks, they bring out another.
Anyway Bruno, keep up the good work. We are glad to hear of you business successes.
Many the rock quarries lease takeuchi compact swing loaders out here. Or wacker neusons. The S300 bobcats will load a 4000 pallet but theyre pretty sketchy. The swing loaders can grab 6k with complete finesse.
Letting a machine you own be broke is to take an almost total depreciation hit. So fixing it is like getting paid. Big bob in running shape is a $10k machine.
Where I work we have a 2000 model year Volvo L70D loader that we bought new. It has has hundreds of operators learn how to run it over the years. Many with no common sense :-X. This machine has been used for snow plowing, dirt work, log loading, road maintenance, and to move machinery around. It currently has 14,000 + hours on the meter and has never had an engine repair. It has a transmission repair a couple of years ago, which was an external computer issue. It has it's second set of tire on it that are good for another year or two. The machine looks rough but still gets used daily. We keep it greased and change the oil regularly and that's about it. I think you could use it or a machine like it with great success at your operation.
I worked at a construction equipment dealer back in the 80's where we sold Allis Chalmers and the Fiat-Allis loaders that almost never lasted more than 4,000 hours without an engine and or transmission rebuild. With that experience to look back on, I am truly amazed at how well this old Volvo has held up. We have been buying Cat equipment lately here at work. It has been against my better judgement, but out of my control. We have mechanical issues almost daily with our tracked skid steer, agricultural tele-handler, and small excavator. The old Volvo loader just keeps on plugging away. I don't know if newer Volvo's with tier 4 engines are as bad as the Cats, but if you can find an older Volvo loader you might have a machine you could make some money with.
Quote from: Gere Flewelling on September 19, 2021, 07:22:42 AM
Where I work we have a 2000 model year Volvo L70D loader that we bought new. It has has hundreds of operators learn how to run it over the years. Many with no common sense :-X. This machine has been used for snow plowing, dirt work, log loading, road maintenance, and to move machinery around. It currently has 14,000 + hours on the meter and has never had an engine repair. It has a transmission repair a couple of years ago, which was an external computer issue. It has it's second set of tire on it that are good for another year or two. The machine looks rough but still gets used daily. We keep it greased and change the oil regularly and that's about it. I think you could use it or a machine like it with great success at your operation.
I worked at a construction equipment dealer back in the 80's where we sold Allis Chalmers and the Fiat-Allis loaders that almost never lasted more than 4,000 hours without an engine and or transmission rebuild. With that experience to look back on, I am truly amazed at how well this old Volvo has held up. We have been buying Cat equipment lately here at work. It has been against my better judgement, but out of my control. We have mechanical issues almost daily with our tracked skid steer, agricultural tele-handler, and small excavator. The old Volvo loader just keeps on plugging away. I don't know if newer Volvo's with tier 4 engines are as bad as the Cats, but if you can find an older Volvo loader you might have a machine you could make some money with.
The "D" series was legendary and the Volvo "E" series was the last of the great ones. The G series had lots of Regen related issues. The H's are improved over the G: but like everything else computer controlled even the dealers have trouble figuring out the shutdowns. The system is now stacked against running anything new past warranty.
Quote from: mike_belben on September 18, 2021, 07:55:32 PM
Letting a machine you own be broke is to take an almost total depreciation hit. So fixing it is like getting paid. Big bob in running shape is a $10k machine.
I'm not saying don't get it running. Fix the starter and the bare minimum to get it running. Limp it by until he can upgrade.
I'm saying don't dump thousands on an injector pump, engine rebuild, windows, etc. Because with all that work he will have spent 10k on a machine that is still worth 10k.
And after he spends 10k on it and an obsolete hydraulic pump fails he will have 10k into a 800 dollar hunk of scrap.
Im with you. Its a fine backup machine. A man needs at least two of every tool right?
I will be looking to up grade but I'm going the Yellowhammer route.
Fix this and wait till new inventory gets better and more used machines hit the market for less money.
I don't think I would buy anything Cat or John Deere the dealerships around this area are pretty proud of themselves.
I don't see things with inventory getting better any time soon.
I did saw 4 days last week.
My part time helper the fire Lt. Used his tractor to load the deck and move slabs.
The deck is full up sawn units as his tractor can't pick them up. I hope for a better week.
This year I have been blessed with great help. So all's not bad. I wake up every morning with a good out look on the day. Could be much worse.
Amen.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on September 19, 2021, 01:06:19 PM
I will be looking to up grade but I'm going the Yellowhammer route.
Fix this and wait till new inventory gets better and more used machines hit the market for less money.
I don't think I would buy anything Cat or John Deere the dealerships around this area are pretty proud of themselves.
I don't see things with inventory getting better any time soon.
I did saw 4 days last week.
My part time helper the fire Lt. Used his tractor to load the deck and move slabs.
The deck is full up sawn units as his tractor can't pick them up. I hope for a better week.
This year I have been blessed with great help. So all's not bad. I wake up every morning with a good out look on the day. Could be much worse.
Most tractors will pick up more with their 3pt than with the FEL. Cheap 3pt hitch forks with a hydro top-link can be very handy for lumber packs in a pinch. Won't load a trailer truck but will load goosenecks and car haulers and move things away from the mill.