I've got two different projects coming up, one is a few large sycamore logs, and the other is a good sized whack of red maple. The red maple we are thinking flooring, I have never sawn red maple before, is flooring a good use for it?
The sycamore logs, I don't know what they are going to be used for. Is it good for cabinetry and flooring? Is quarter sawing going to give us the best figure? Thanks.
Dave
Dave, everything I've read on here leans to Q-sawing the Sycamore. I don't know about the red maple.
That's what I was thinking as well. Only thing I have heard of using red maple for is pallets.
I missed out on a big sycamore last winter, 36"x9' clear and sound. It ended up as firewood, what a waste.
Dave
I'd use red maple for turning before I cut it up for pallets. I'd be willing to bet it would make good framing wood for cabinets. I'd use it for any trim I planned to paint as well.
Hi Dave, I,ll try to help you as you did with me...
Sycamore..I don,t know
Red maple I know....It,s average to put on floors, softer than yellow birch, ladies with **high heels ** will mark the floor. Would be great for walls or furniture or moulding , cabinets... Sugar maple or hard maple is a lot better for flooring.
If you put it in a bedroom (floor) it will be fine, but myself I would not put red maple where there is a lot of traffic. Just my opinion. See you. Roger
dave ,do you have a picture of what you are calling red maple if so what is white maple ?sugar maple?
Dave,
I am just starting some cabinets with spalted QS sycamore. Lots of stuff is happening in those boards. 8) the wood is a bit soft - mostly from the spalting. But sycamore in general is softer than other common hardwoods.
Quote from: roger 4400 on April 02, 2008, 08:55:40 PM
Sycamore..I don,t know
Red maple I know....It,s average to put on floors, softer than yellow birch, ladies with **high heels ** will mark the floor. Would be great for walls or furniture or moulding , cabinets... Sugar maple or hard maple is a lot better for flooring.
If you put it in a bedroom (floor) it will be fine, but myself I would not put red maple where there is a lot of traffic. Just my opinion. See you. Roger
I am with Roger. A little soft for floors.
Some times you can get curly red maple to. Most times a light stain really brings out the grain.
"Sycamore..I don,t know" same here.
Wally
Jeff Mills (Dad2nine here on FF) has quartersawn quite a bit of sycamore, and I've dried it for him. It is a dream to work with - lots of nice ray flect and it does extremely well in the kiln. I use the same schedule as red oak for it.
Try to end seal it as quickly as possible after felling the logs, and mill it / get it into the kiln ASAP for minimal degrade.
Scott
We got paid today for a red maple / hickory project. I used both on walls, ceilings and floors.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/softmaple.jpg)
I've used pine on floors for that matter and have taken up a 150 year old poplar floor that still had plenty of life.
"Softer" floors pick up the patina a lot quicker. Many people like that look. These woods might be "soft", but I wouldn't want to get hit in the head with one. smiley_swinging_board
The guy that's bringing the sycamore said he has heard that if moves a lot, even once it's dry. Said a friend of his made cabinets out of it and they moved around too much. I would have thought dried q-sawn would be more stable. I know I will need a dust mask when I saw it, being a platanus species. ;)
Dave
You should ask if his friend dryed it thoroughly and properly. I know some guys around here that pay no attention to MC when they build furniture then complain about movement. ::) :-X
Quote from: beav39 on April 02, 2008, 09:16:13 PM
dave ,do you have a picture of what you are calling red maple if so what is white maple ?sugar maple?
red maple = white maple = soft maple ;)
white maple is a common name among woodsmen around here to.
sugar maple = rock maple = hard maple ;)
according to USFS Red maple make a great framing lumber stronger than SPF. But if it has caricature ,wave ,curl,or ambrosia Id hang it on the wall some how.
Dale
Dave, is red maple what we call swamp maple,grows in lowland areas??I've never had much luck with it seems to always have a dark heart.It seems to move around alot drying usally now it just keeps me warm.I've never milled a sycamore can't say anything about it. Frank C.
bandmiller yes, also silver maple can be called that to, they both grow on our low lands and river bottom lands.
I have sawn both.
Flat sawn sycamore is boring. Quarter sawn sycamore can be eye popping georgeous :o
Falt sawn soft maple will basically end up as paint grade because the grain pattern can also be bland. Quarter sawn soft maple is hit and miss. The heartwood has a beautiful texture that stands out. The sap wood can show some good figure, depending on the finish.
I would quarter both. The more bland soft maple can be put to good use as structural wood in furniture and cabinetry.
Bandmiller2, yes, this is what is known as swamp maple around here. As SwampDonkey says, it is grouped with silver maple. There is a huge silver maple butt log at work, but I don't know that it's worth sawing. Thanks for the advice everyone.
Dave
I really think the grouping is "soft maple", of which red and silver are within that group. Seems to be some confusion afloat here.
Red maple (Acer rubrum) is a species, and identified easiest when looking at the tree. After the wood is sawn, it is not easily separated from the other soft maple species. Silver maple (Acer saccharinum) is a species, of which red isn't in there. Both are in the soft maple group.
Also afloat are some 'local' names given to the wood, to add to the confusion.
I've been trying to call it red maple, which is the proper name. I agree it can get confusing using local vernacular. Hedge apple is even worse in regards to local names. ;)
Dave
I think the term 'white' maple is used to designate the sapwood of maple, soft or hard. It isn't a species, as SD implied (but just my midwestern opinion... ;D ;D )
Here is a helpful site showing the relationship between the maples.
http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/frame.htm
No, white maple = red maple, one and the same regardless of sapwood. Ask anyone in Maine and the Maritimes who cuts wood.
Yes to your previous comment beenthere. ;D
oh and black maple is a hard maple as well as sugar maple. I doubt most anyone could tell the trees apart, let alone the logs. ;D
hmmm red oak, then there is white oak, then there are chestnut oaks........ :D :D
Around here, the stumpage for red maple has gone up. I have heard (second hand) that the reason is that it can be stained to resemble cherry.
Possibly, but I think yellow birch would and has been used as a look-a-like until you get looking at the grain closer. Never heard of red maple stained cherry. We do get yellow birch with pinkish heart on old growth and is much more stable than maple heart.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 03, 2008, 03:22:27 PM
oh and black maple is a hard maple as well as sugar maple. I doubt most anyone could tell the trees apart, let alone the logs. ;D
I have a forester buddy who mentioned "black maple" in a discussion we had recently, and I told him I had never heard of it. In our community, he said he's only ever seen one, and it's a very distinctive leaf pattern from the typical sugar maple. Something about a three-lobed leaf rather than typical five, and rounded lobes to boot. I have not researched this but just from memory of our conversation. Of course, leaves aren't out yet, so I can't tell, but this time of year it looks like any other maple tree. It's a big one, on the side of a main road nearby. He said that they are much more common, the further south I go.
As for soft maples, we have red and silver, and I consider them the same tree, and although you can tell the difference, I haven't cared to try. My flooring in the entire main floor of my house, save for some tile areas, is silvermaple. It's very showy, lots of dark streaks and a LOT of curl. Also extremely soft, we have been actively "using" the floor for four months and it is already showing major dents and scratches. I also used a water-based poly, so that makes it worse, but my wife and I both appreciate rustic look, character to the house, so it is not an issue. I think the floor will look much better in 12-15 years when it has been used and abused and shows some age.
Some people can't even tell Norway from sugar, so..........what I meant by most was that most of the general population won't distinguish it unless they educate themselves about it or are shown. And forget it when looking at the logs. ;D
I recently sawed sycamore I my best impression of this wood is what i call watermellon board as the flecking and rays are very nice with a nice pink red colour.
As for drying it lots of splits I have it stacked with my white oak and Yellow Pop., black walnut
Very hard to split with a maul or splitter and grain is cross and interlocked
I was given the log and wanted to make a chopping block which sycamore is very good for, but because of the splitting some coming off the mill and spliting, I cut more than i needed to get the job done right
8q boards x 12"
haven';t had much problem with the oaks popular walnut drying so my setup is fine just lots of checking etc with the sycimore.
hope this helps with anyones decision.
Welcome to the Forum!
I really like the figure of q-sawn sycamore. I don't know what ever happened to those logs I was supposed to saw, I guess they changed their mind. :-\
Dave
This is a little confusing. I also have had a different experience with soft maple than what Swampdonky describes. The Silver Maple yard tree from my neighbor was 4' in diameter at the butt and no dark hart wood. As white as can be all the way through. We must be talking about different trees. Great wood to work though but too soft for floors by a long ways.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13292/LgMapleOptimized.jpg)
abnorm , I think you need to bypass airdrying the sycamore and get it straight in a kiln , that will help with the cracks. I know its good for bowls and spoons but I wonder how it would hold up as a cutting board, the stuff is really soft.
I went yesterday to start working on a sycamore that the wind has put on the ground , 30"dia x over 20' long . it is down in a creek and not going to be the easiest to get out but... I got to the tree and heard something sounded like prop airplane, turned and looked and saw bunches of 2" long hornets going in a dead poplar about 10' away :o will be jan or feb before I go back :)
People around here us sycamore for inside of barns, saw it one day nail it down next day. I was told as long as its nailed good it works fine.
Chris,
Your silver maple looks the same as ours by looking at the bark on it. The heart may be hard to distinguish when fresh cut I suspect. Any soft maple I've seem has a distinct heartwood, sapwood can be very wide I guess according to the Wood Tech Book.
Some folks here confuse the common name with boxelder (Manitoba Maple) because some one in the family called it that, so it will always be that. :D :D "Oh!! You don't know what your talking about." :D :D
Dave,
I used red maple on my living and dining room floor, 1100 sq ft. to be exact. I dried it to 4% mc. tongue`and grooved each 2" wide slab with my shaper table. THAT WAS A LONG SUMMER, alot of work. I put it down in 2002 and has held up great. 2 kids, sliding dining room chairs and pet traffic have put it to test. It looks good and I get tons of compliments on it. The grain looks good. I used MinWax golden pecan stain and 5 coats of spar Urethane. Scuffed between coats with 220 grit sand paper. It makes nice flooring.
As for sycamore, I quarter sawed 2 a couple years ago for a guy. He used boards on walls of a pole building. The fleck looks neat with a clear stain. I just did a job for him 2 weeks ago and he showed me the boards, it looked sharp.
I've heard of sycamore being used for cutting boards quite often. I've also seen a fellow that made a real nice guitar out of sycamore.
I was so curious, I went out to the barn and checked the color of one of the Silver Maple 6x6 posts that came out of one edge of the heart center. It does look uniformly white. If the shades of white are different, its hard to tell at the rough cut ends. We are on sandy loam (no clay) so I wounder if the soil creates lighter hart wood. It was also a yard tree so it probably got some fertilizer. Another possibility is some color difference may show after exposed to sun light. All of my wood has been out of the sun. Interesting. :P
Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 18, 2008, 11:16:48 AM
Welcome to the Forum!
I really like the figure of q-sawn sycamore. I don't know what ever happened to those logs I was supposed to saw, I guess they changed their mind. :-\
Dave
Well, they showed up last week at the mill. 8) The guys said "let's start with the small one". Ha! The small one was 30"x10" with about an inch of taper. It was a bear to turn, even with two 6'3" guys. Need an Arky Super Stick, or three. We peeled enough flat sawn off the outside to get it small enough to quarter, then we split it through the pith both ways. Made some nice boards. 8) The next log is the next log up the tree, it's about 20'. :o :o The butt log hasn't put in an appearance yet. I guess they couldn't get it on the truck. :o
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/1723/dsc01581.jpg)
Nuff said? :D
Well, I'll talk about it anyway. :D These sycamore were wind thrown last spring, whenever this thread was started, I guess. I thought they had been forgotten, but all of a sudden we need to get them sawn up right away. I'm squaring up a cant on the mill, about 24"x24", and quartering it right through the pith. I then flip-flop the pith from one top corner to the other to get narrower and narrower q-sawn boards. The grain runs from a very intense pattern, like the above pic, to a very fine, even flecking. I'd have to say this is the most impressive lumber I've ever sawn. We've gotten two logs done, and a few more (smaller) still on deck. 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/1723/dsc01587.jpg)
Bring me those 4' diameter sycamore butts and I'll quartersaw them - I would like to be able to saw bigger quarters but my wood mizer only goes 24" between the guides or 26" if I shim up over the bed stops. Been thinking about splitting the head and extending it out about 6 inches or so. Then I could saw 30" wide quarters, maybe one of these days >:(
Sycamore is by far my favorite wood to quarter saw - great ray fleck it don't stink and sometimes ambrosia beetle tracks, makes great furniture grade lumber and finishes nice and smooth.
Quote from: bck on July 18, 2008, 12:13:59 PM
I went yesterday to start working on a sycamore that the wind has put on the ground , 30"dia x over 20' long . it is down in a creek and not going to be the easiest to get out but... I got to the tree and heard something sounded like prop airplane, turned and looked and saw bunches of 2" long hornets going in a dead poplar about 10' away :o will be jan or feb before I go back :)
I just checked and the hornets are nowhere to be seen but I need a boat to get to it now ::) the creek bed was dry last time I was there but now it is surrounded with knee deep water :(
For what it is worth I bought a bunch of QS sycamore a few years ago for a project and found you have to be careful running it through the planer. Too aggressive and it nearly explodes. I had a piece literally shatter (3/4" thick) and blow out of the planer all over the place. Nice soft passes over the jointer work well with it but you have to watch for chipout. It also does move a bit more than usual with change of seasons and there were a decent number of boards that were cracked once they sat in the shop for a while.
Also, to get the best ray fleck really pay attention to the endgrain. Some pieces that were just 5 degrees out of perpendicular where pretty boring but when I resawed at perfect quartering on my bandsaw it really popped. Shellac is awesome for making it standout. I made a lot of great looking picture frames and used it on the shelves and the bottom of the inside of cherry china cabinets with it to lighten the inside up.
Matt, it sounds like there was something wrong with the wood you bought. I've used a fair amount of sycamore (some quartersawn, some not) and I experienced no problems with it. It works similarly to yellow poplar, but maybe a little more tearout. The only reason a 3/4" piece should explode is if it's partially rotted or has severe (and I mean bad) grain runout.
Could it have been dried too fast and too much??
Yep Niff said
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncwoodworker.net%2Fpp%2Fdata%2F891%2FQS_Sycamore_clear_finished_.jpg&hash=94db2050a6ed9d08d6cafd5c17063d4ea6c1553e)
Well maybe not
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncwoodworker.net%2Fpp%2Fdata%2F891%2Fmedium%2FIMG_0713.JPG&hash=06f51667d0c6a5035e25c25b09ddc7152c760ffa)
Ok done now :D
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncwoodworker.net%2Fpp%2Fdata%2F891%2Fmedium%2FSlab_Table_3.jpg&hash=fb94adf4a615274daf246446822c699c70ffe272)
Sounds like someone over cooked it in a kiln.
I sawed up about 2000 board feet of sycamore this week with mixed results. Some of it sawed fine, and some of it turned bright red, and split into toothpicks. Very weird. I talked to the person I sawed for last winter and he said that some of it also turned bright red and shattered. It's beautiful stuff, but a very low return of quality qs material.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/ffsycamore.jpg)