Identify large circular saw blade tips

[Timberjack5]

Yeah ok. Mike when you say filing a $5 breaker point, I'm not sure what a breaker point is. Is it the saw itself where when filing you are very slowly reducing your saw size or is it some sort of attached point. Where I'm going with this is that the benefit with the inserts is that you are not wearing out the saw itself, the inserts are protecting and preserving the saw which is a far greater cost then the inserts.
I do value your opinion and respect and admire your thought pattern about using the old ways which also has often worked well for me and has helped my business grow.
I had to start from scratch again when I was 45, I'm now 50. I didn't go bankrupt, it took me 14 years of hardship to pay everybody so when I got going again I started with anything, mostly broken needed fixing, I certainly must have looked poverty stricken to a lot of people however I learned to think differently at commercial opportunities and often retrofit older equipment with new aftermarket components that are readily available at a fair price. Now we are getting wind behind our sails and we have a low debt ratio. I breed working stock horses, I have built up a herd of cattle that I run on leased country and have a hay operation.
Where I run my cattle in some very rugged country the grazing land is returning to forest and the 2 owners who I lease with are happy for me to log the region, it's about 3500 acres. I recently bought a Cat D6D model dozer in very good condition. I'm going to do some selective logging but then on the bulk of downgrade trees I can see a great opportunity for firewood with a big commercial style  processor. In my case it's probably worthwhile for me to go with the inserts however I'm intrigued by the hardfacing concept. Having a lot of welding experience like yourself, I know that where there is high impact, there is a limit to the amount of welding that can be down repitisously to the edge of that saw before a chunk of saw comes away from metal fatigue so that produces an argument for inserts, maybe those inserts are homemade and hardfaced to protect the saw itself.
I recently bought a retired combine harvester that everything is still working with a 200hp cat motor, air con cab, heaps of hydraulics. Also bought an old cherry picker on an old international 4x4 truck. The header and cherry picker have enough parts to go a heck of a long way towards building the firewood processor, yes it's a lot of work but it's also a learning experience that makes me better at what I do. I live on a family farm that will largely go to my brother in days to come so I'm hoping to buy a bit of dirt for myself and the wife and kids, the firewood means cashflow and it's a great way to develop a rough block of country.

[mike_belben]

Well we are cut from the same cloth for sure buddy!  


The saw chunking is possible.  You asked me what my idea was.. I didnt say it was a good one!  ;D

Good on you for getting back on your feet.  I been there. Wife and i lost two houses, briefly lived in vehicles with babies.  4 years in a camper.  One day at a time right?  Thats all anyone can handle. 

The $5 breaker points was referring to old, old automotive distributor ignitions vs new stuff.  Yeah it was annoying to maintain my bobcat distributor.  Swapped over to newfangled electronic and now its REAL annoying to pay $300 and wait on shipping every time the new one quits. Wish i could find a supplier for the old style.  New can come with its own issues.  Its never good to be the final owner of something high tech.  Not that this applies to saw inserts.. Im sure theyre a miracle and im just ranting about staying ahead of forced obsolescence.  

[Timberjack5]

Don't get me started on forced obsolescence. Yes I fully understand everything you've said now, don't know how I missed the points ignition, think I was on FM while you were on AM. 
I think the most likely outcome is going to be the I'll have to sweat it out over a couple of monster saws to make them awesome and on the metallurgy / hardness / tension etc. I'm most happy to hear from anyone who has some input based on practical experience.

[moodnacreek]

I doubt those saws are hard steel. After all they get hammered whenever necessary. Big saws have personalities . Some plates behave and some barely get by. A real good anvil man will try to fix a saw others have failed on. Good luck finding this craftsman as there are very few that are top notch. They will tell you that uneven temper in a saw plate is something nobody can fix. I have wasted alot of time and money having mill saws hammered and made some enemies.  I did get to know 2 real exceptional saw hammers, thank God as I was starting to hate them all.  Anyhow those saws need to be run hard while trying to find parts. You want to saw wood hard without warming the saw plates and get to know them.

[Timberjack5]

G'day Moodnacreek,
There appears to be a lot of experience in what you've said so I will keep all that in mind.
I've done a file test this morning and the plates don't seem to be hard at all.
Building the whole firewood processor is going to take some time, in the mean time I'll be doing a bit of logging and I'm hoping to set up a small sawmill even if it's just to get my hand in for some sawn boards that I need myself initially. I can break down with the swingsaw in previous pics ( posted ) though I would like to buy / acquire or build something like what we call a Canadian break down saw, I reckon it's built in Canada but I don't know. They were popular here but the more modern mills have moved on from them. A big stationary saw with the log on a carriage.
I recently bought a saw bench that came out of a high production pine mill previous to that it was used for hardwood, it has powered rollers and needs about 60hp, I'm planning to power it with a tractor engine and gearbox. The mill replaced it with a karasaw one man bench.
In order to get these plates spinning in the near future I could certainly make use of a straight out docking saw for firewood just to create blocks from logs. What sort of spindle speed would you think I'd need or tip speed (either way ) for those big saws?
Also I am going to need to power it and I am thinking a mechanical shaft drive to belts on the saw rather that hydraulic to avoid a drop in horsepower. I'm not 100% certain on how to build the spindle, say for example I have a 2 inch shaft mounted on a bearing each side of the belt drive pulley ( shaft would have a key way for the pulley. Then a saw collar, how wide should I go in the collar for that size saw ? Then have one big thread with a big 2 inch type nut, is this going to be sufficient. I've noticed those Simmons saws have 4 smaller bolts around the collar area.

[Timberjack5]

 

 I do have this little gearbox off a grass slasher that I thought might be another way to get the 90 degree angle into the power train for the saw. Maybe this one is not big enough, perhaps a bigger one.

[Timberjack5]

 

 Previously the power was taken from this box on 3 x C section v belts.

[mike_belben]

Automotive CV axles should have no issue with the rpm or flexibility.  I would make them long to reduce the joints operating angle for longer life.  


Can saw blanks be annealed and retempered?


You could run direct drive off belts to reduce power loss but then you need the saw swingarm to be running on a live shaft at its pivot point so it shortens the life of the pivot bearings.  Especially since the saw and bearings will be always running even if youre fidding with a log jam, the bearing life is being consumed.  To change the bearings means pulling an awkward saw and swingarm.  Itd be physically easier to change a CV driveshaft as you wouldnt need to be breaking down sheaves and shafts with a big saw mounted to them.

I suggest running off a rockford type clutch for a direct drive saw head so you can uncouple.

[Timberjack5]

Mike,
Yeah I'm thinking the same way at this point but maybe a long PTO shaft as it can slide as well as act as a constant velocity, as the saw goes up and down the length of the shaft may vary slightly. I've got one off a hay mower conditioner that should work ok. It's about 8 or 9 foot long. I think the saw will still need to be mounted on a shaft with a couple of bearings but the pto shaft could be detachable from the saw mount
I don't know the answer to whether saw blanks can be annealed and retempered. I can't see why not if you were set up a bit to do the job. These saws here don't seem to be hard at all.

[moodnacreek]

I would copy/use a mandrel off a circle saw mill. Easy for me as I have a few laying around. The spindle size is standard, 2". The collars can be different , generally 6 to 8". There is 2 pin hole patterns, std. and large, new saws are drilled for both.  Rpm somewhere around 600 or where the saws run flat plus a little.  Dia. of mandrels found: 2 7/16, 2 11/16 and 2 15/16." [common sizes].

[mike_belben]

I think the saw will still need to be mounted on a shaft with a couple of bearings

Right.  I started typing then decided an ugly sketch was more efficient.  



These are the three ways i can imagine right now to avoid a hydraulic motor.  I only think it makes sense if you have insufficient horsepower, hydraulic cooling and reservoir limits, and if the junk is laying around the yard already for a one off build and you dont mind the maintenance.  Production machine building, i would look at hydraulic motors designed for load bearing to eliminate the top shaft and bearings.

 Commercial zero turns use them and they have an integrated brake shoe system with various hub types.  The brake could be a nice E stop feature to shutr down.



Belts and sheaves do have the benefit of serving as a clutch if you bind the saw, and also of doing a simple pulley change to alter the rim speed of the saw if you get the calcs wrong or need more torque etc  a torque convertor belt system would give one on the fly adjustment between cutting softer limbwood vs very hard ugly butt logs. 



A pto shaft driving the saw direct at the saw hub would endure a lot of operating angle change through the stroke and may produce resonance in saw itself as the Ujoints are accelerating and deccelerating against themselves whenever the joint angles arent equal and opposite.  This is why i would prefer CV joints and would also prefer belts between the shaft and saw to help dissipate any resonance.
I would really hate to see a saw frag from shaft harmonics that fatigue and work harden it to failure.  


I feel a shaft drive should have some form of a stall clutch. Whether spring pucks or belts that'll burn.  You dont want to stop an engine from full speed, or explode a pto shaft and throw it at 3000rpm. Obviously guarding would be wise.


A hydraulic motor has its issues but sure does solve a lot of issues cause by trying to avoid the hydraulic motor in the first place!

[Timberjack5]

 Moodna, thanks, you have confirmed a thought lurking about for me to find a spindle setup out of circle saw bench set up as you say. The other info of speeds etc is very helpful.
Mike you have brought up several issues worth thought.
The options here are that I've got this complete harvester ready to wreck for the build, it has a cat 3208 ( seems to be 225 hp ) it has a hydraulically activated small cylinder on the bell housing of motor that moves a flat sheave ( we call it pulley )

 on a pivot that runs onto the back of a big 4 belt drive, this tightens the belts and obviously is capable of transferring 225 hp. It has a nice air con cab that I thought would make the processor more civilised. The harvester could be left as it is and converted to a processor. Here is a link to one in action.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V0u1XKCPIAg
The other option is to build it all onto a trailer that is more mobile and probably better for getting into rugged country as well as being more valuable if it ever needed to be sold especially if I made a presentable job of building it. I have 4 x new universal beams ( I beams - 10 inch x 6 inch X 30 feet )
This build is going to take some time as I will be working on it periodically so I am thinking that in the mean time I could set up a dedicated dock saw on 2 of the steel beams with a set of wheels and a tow hitch. I have a 80hp tractor that offers multiple PTO speeds so if it could potentially drive that saw then it would be fairly straight forward to set up, given the lower h.p. then the direct drive of Pto could be good. Of the designs that you've drawn Mike, the one that appeals to me the most is the live shaft pivot with belts to saw, it gives some clutch effect however those belts and sheaves won't be cheap.

Instead, say it was direct drive from pto, with a long shaft direct to centre of saw spindle, A friction clutch could be added into the shaft, commonly available with pto fittings. I can produce the 600rpm from the tractor no problems plus modify saw speed easily from tractor PTO gearing.
Remember the saw is an offset tooth, one right, one left consecutively. The Simmons Kodak slasher style seems to be a straight cut. I know for a fact that a straight cut sucks more horsepower so this saw might work ok on 80hp direct drive. I can set it up without to much fuss. The tractor has 2 sets of hydraulic remotes, air con cab along with an independent PTO clutch to activate the saw. The remotes could be used to drive the cylinder on the up / down for saw and the second remote for log feed.
I can't see why the operator could not sit in cab to operate say, maybe a swivel seat would be good.

[Timberjack5]

Mike, thinking about the saw resonance issue from Pto joints, then to fix this the PTO goes to live pivot centre, then belts, this way the pto shaft can be mounted along a beam or some structure where it can be saddled by appropriate guarding.

[Timberjack5]

 

 This tractor can be made available to run A PTO docking saw

[Timberjack5]

 

 
Harvester available for parts, all still running, motor in good order 3208 cat 225 hp.

[Timberjack5]

 

 PTO friction clutch as mentioned, this can literally go directly onto the pto shaft at tractor, 5 minute job.

[mike_belben]

Youve got a good junk pile to start with.  Theres a very similar 4wd articulated bean picker in town thats been there atleast a decade.  I inquired but $5k is too rich for this bum.

Shaft vibrations may be a non issue, i have no experience in circle mills, just wanted to make sure i brought it up so you could investigate.  Universal joint shafts will only cancel out if they have equal and opposite operating angles across the two joints, one at each end.  Otherwise they suffer from back and forth torsional binding forces, like the rubber band for the wind up prop of an old toy airplane [back before playstation.]


Ive admired the dibble's machine for a long time.  Business must be good, thats a lotta knee wall they poured for that hoop house!

[Timberjack5]

Mike I paid 1000 au for that Harvester, $716 U.S. on today's exchange. A neighbour was a serious don't wanted, his wife was nagging him to get it out of the driveway and we drove it home.
I appreciate what you, Moodna, Barge and others have brought up as I now have a much more sound mental picture of how I will achieve the workings from what I already have here. 
Yes the Dibble setup is a sight to behold and it certainly looks like it's going well.
If I can get my head around it all enough it might be possible to build the temporary dock saw using the big motor and build it in such a way that it's designed to be finished off as the complete processor. If it can cut blocks to start with it can make money. There might be some big belts on that header that can be used to drive direct from cat motor to saw. Everything else on the processor would be hydraulic and there will be enough belts and sheaves to get power to hydraulic pumps as well. I'm pretty sure it's now the biggest engineering challenge of my life so far and that seems to be half the fun.

[Timberjack5]

 

 This is my other parts donor. It's a 4x4 International, carries 5 to 6 tonne,
Has a big old 360 petrol in it. I paid 900 au for it and then bought the harvester for the cat motor to put in this but that's now changed. I'll put a diesel in this , rob what ever hydraulics I need off it and convert it to a tipper for picking up firewood in steep country. I've got a 2x2 tipper with a splitter box that is on road and in good shape that can be used in the mean time. The boom is mounted on a hydraulic rotating turntable. I reckon there is the makings for a driven axle forestry trailer in this with the grapple boom but that will have to be further down the track. There is another beam that was on top 35 footer, i was thinking that I had scored a couple of nice steel beams but it turns out they are fibre glass with steel and brass bearing inserts and so on.

[Satamax]

Hey Timberjack5. 

Have you ever seen this one? 

Sweet Home Made Firewood Processor 2 - YouTube

I think that's the best DIY combi machine i've seen on youtube. 1 log split every 4 seconds on average. 

Myself, having the Brimont to finish, the Latil on the waiting list too. I had the parts to make a huge splitter.  150cm chairlift tensioning hydraulic cylinder. Which could be capable of 50 tons at 280 bars. A 62kw draglift motor. All sorts of pumps. A HEB 280 beam  which already had one slide for the  pusher. 

But having no time. I said dang it. 

And bought the palax. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=111569.0

No waste of time. And it can nearly get to work straight away. There's a few details which are not up to par. 

[mike_belben]

Im gonna have my wife read your posts so she will know that im not the only one with this disease.  There are two.  

:D

[Timberjack5]

Laugh out loud, it's not all for nothing then Mike.

[Timberjack5]

Hey Satamax
Thanks, I had a look at that machine, yeah it's really good. I checked out your machine as well, very nice. 
That's some big parts you've got stored up there. 
Always good to hear from you mate.

[moodnacreek]

Everything on firewood processers has been done and pretty much been perfected except one small item and thats the splitter. The more wings you have the sooner you will be welding. Build your deck and infeed real heavy and the saw also. Good enough is not good. Extra heavy duty and nice small wood. Watch a sawmill carriage that weighs tons saw logs you could lift. That's what you want, small wood and big iron.  When you load your deck you want to be able to drop the wood if that's what is fast. Sounds ignorant? yes but that's the way it needs to be.  And if the machine really does not need to be mobile don't build it on a trailer and consider detaching the hyd. power unit. Everything is better on skids not wheels.

[mike_belben]

About 3x a day i start and then stop building a processor.  Its been a huge exercise in restraint to wait for a few more container loads of my junk from up in mass. I only have enough parts, metal and tooling here to build a mediocre one right now but boy would i love to.