The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: coxy on July 02, 2018, 04:21:46 PM

Title: need some info
Post by: coxy on July 02, 2018, 04:21:46 PM
if I have a contract for timber harvest on a piece of property and some one cuts over the property line  do I have a right to sue also for timber theft along with the land owner 
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: Southside on July 02, 2018, 04:26:32 PM
Did you pre-buy the timber paid in full?  If so I would think you have a claim.  
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: coxy on July 02, 2018, 05:04:36 PM
no but I said what I was going to give the LO in the contract 
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: luvmexfood on July 02, 2018, 05:52:55 PM
That is a tricky question. Did you own the timber or the landowner? At a minimum I think it would give you standing to renegotiate the contract with the landowner to subtract the value of the gone timber. Let him have the hassle of recouping the loss. Then again I am not an attorney and the last motel I stayed in was a Red Roof Inn.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: Black_Bear on July 02, 2018, 08:49:16 PM
Depending on the way the contract is worded you may not own the wood yet. If you look at it like the IRS would look at it, the tree remains the property of the landowner until it is severed at the stump, then it becomes your property. Therefore, to recoup your losses you may have to sue the landowner for breach of contract, which probably isn't a logical way to go. If a client asked me this question I would defer to a lawyer.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: mike_belben on July 02, 2018, 10:54:53 PM
Wouldnt the IRS consider the transfer of ownership to occur upon payment?  I thought deduction of expenses was based on payment date, rsther than delivery date.  I could be wrong, just asking.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: Southside on July 02, 2018, 11:25:22 PM
I think you have what is called standing which gives you a path to sue, but you will have to show losses or damages from what you would have sold the logs for, ie profit, but honestly you are probably trying to get blood out of a stone. I would renegotiate the contract and let the land owner go after the crook. 
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: Black_Bear on July 02, 2018, 11:46:00 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on July 02, 2018, 10:54:53 PM
Wouldnt the IRS consider the transfer of ownership to occur upon payment?  I thought deduction of expenses was based on payment date, rsther than delivery date.  I could be wrong, just asking.
I'm not sure? The IRS does recognize that timber becomes a taxable good or product once severed from the stump, but not sure how they would determine when the transaction actually took place. I have seen many contracts that read that the landowner owns the product (log, pulp, etc.) until he/she is paid for it, which around here is often a week or two after it goes to the mill. My analogy may not have been a good one, as the contract language may affect this situation more than IRS tax code.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: mike_belben on July 03, 2018, 12:24:35 AM
Yeah i dont have a clue.  To summarize my lifetime experience with the law, the more time and money you have available, the more the system bends in your favor and vice versa.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: BargeMonkey on July 03, 2018, 12:33:52 AM
How much mbdft are we talking ? I'm under the impression that timber theft is convicted 110% of the time and you CAN get blood from a stone. 🤣 I would revise the contract and assist the landowner in getting their money, see how the cards fall. 
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: starmac on February 26, 2019, 03:06:08 PM
I also do not have a clue, but would assume that the thief, would only have to pay one owner. In other words, what ever the court told him the trees was worth, is all he would have to pay.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: bitternut on February 26, 2019, 08:02:09 PM
I believe in NY the penalty is triple valu and or $250 per stump plus any residual damage to the stand as a result of the theft or something close to what I said. :D Since Coxy did not pay any money up front seems like he would have a tough time collecting.
Title: Re: need some info
Post by: starmac on February 27, 2019, 07:32:34 PM
Well I didn't finish my post above. I was curious if this got sorted out and if you come out alright on it.