Tulip tree or Yellow poplar

Gary_Watson · May 17, 2003, 01:27:34 PM

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Hi everyone!

does anyone know where I might find a whole piece of yellow poplar tree otherwise known as Tulip tree, I need it about 14' long and close to 36" thick... if anyone knows where please let me know... ???

Thanks !
Gary Watson

Ron Wenrich · May 17, 2003, 03:22:53 PM

Finding it isn't really the hard part. How much you want to pay, how far you will travel, and how you will pick it up is the hard part.

What do you plan to do with a log that size, and why does it have to be tulip poplar?

Gary_Watson · May 17, 2003, 08:49:19 PM

well here is what I plan on doing....I have plans for a "dug-out" canoe and the best wood for a dug out is historically noted by the Cherokee people as the Tulip tree. I have been learning the Cherokee Language for about a 1/2 year so far, so I have some really decorative designs in the cherokee language that will be wood burned into the canoe...there writing system is very unique. as far as distance for driving is concerned I'm kinda open to anything within 900 miles. as far as cost goes...I don't have a clue what it would cost so if anyone knows what the going rate for a log that size I would be very happy to know.
:P
Gary Watson

Mark M · May 17, 2003, 09:18:01 PM

Hi Gary,

We had a couple of fellas float through here on the Missouri a while back with dugout canoes made from cottonwood trees. They had an Indian woman with them who seemed to know where she was going. I saw one of those canoes up by Washburn and they are pretty neat.

Here is a link that shows a picture:

DanG big Canoe

It looks more like a long coffin than a canoe.

Mark

PS - Too bad you're not in Pierre, I could cut one down and send it down the river to ya.

Tom · May 17, 2003, 09:18:21 PM

I was going to suggest Cypress as a better dugout tree but don't think it's too common up there. Florida and South Ga. were big dugout states and cypress was the tree of choice. It's a little out of the 900 mile range for you though. S. Georgia sports quite a few poplars of that size but they are seldom seen in florida.

Ron Wenrich · May 18, 2003, 07:45:39 AM

Well, you're about 900 miles outside of the range of tulip poplar, and about 1500 miles where the big ones grow.

Volume is about 800-900 bd ft. Value depends on how many knots you will allow. If you don't want any, I would expect the cost to be about 50-60 cents range. Lots of knots would drop it a whole lot, but would be harder to work.

It would probably be a lot easier to get a cottonwood of that size in your area. I believe it would be more bouyant and easier to work than tulip poplar.

Gary_Watson · May 18, 2003, 08:38:22 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions...
one of the things I was thinking about when I was picking what type of tree to look for- was how much would the log crack or split when it starts to dry...I know hard woods like black walnut will crack all over the place, I didn't want to choose a tree that just looked perfect - because I was uncertain if it would crack when it starts drying out. then it would be a waste of a good tree....thats when I researched what type of tree the Cherokee's used....

I could actually drive over 900 miles if I need to....so if you know of any good ones :

when do you think would be the best time to cut a tree down, to prevent cracking ???

Gary

beenthere · May 18, 2003, 10:33:45 AM

Here's hoping you will fill out your profile soon, so we don't have to "interpret" from your discussion. We might err in our iterpretation. ;D

When wood dries, it shrinks (and cracks when in the log form).
Seems I heard once that the Indians worked near a lake or stream, keeping their canoe logs submerged when digging them out. That would make sense, as the cracks would be less likely to develop if the wood is kept "green". I would suggest you plan on doing the same, or something similar like using a sprinkling system to keep the wood wet. Detail in the bow and stern will depict if you get severe cracks at those locations. But the hollowed-out midsection (once completed) should not be a problem.
I also heard that canoes (dugouts) were stored underwater by sinking them with rocks, probably for a couple reasons. One, to hide them from others taking them while out on a hunting mission, and another to keep the wood from drying out and cracking. Dugouts apparently are still found submerged with rocks in them.

Sawyerfortyish · May 18, 2003, 07:57:53 PM

Ron was right on with his last post. I'm in N.J. and have big poplar 36" is not somthing you see every day but not uncommon. Given time I could get somthing to fill your order. But the distance will kill you on trucking. Cottonwood is all over your area and is very much almost the same as poplar thats what I would look for

Gary_Watson · May 18, 2003, 10:05:32 PM

NJ isn't that far ;D
maybe I will make a plan to see my brother in NY this fall and I could swing by !

I will only use cotton wood if I have too :-/ I know it will probably work just fine...but I'm kinda set on finding a Tulip tree...

I was wondering also if anyone knows the best way to make cuttings of a tree ? I have a 3' tall tulip tree and was going to try to make a cutting of it... do you think it will work ?

Gary

Weekend_Sawyer · May 19, 2003, 05:43:16 AM

Hi Gary, I like your style. Last year Brother Chris and I drove 1000 miles to get a $300 corn picker, why, because that was the one I wanted. We had a great trip, met some nice folks and may even pick corn with it this year.

I beleive my biggest Yellow Poplar is around 24" If it will help you can have one.

Jeff · May 19, 2003, 06:05:41 AM

Yep, that trip could take you by a lot of Forestry Forum members. Could be very worthwhile.

I was going to drive clear to Missouri to get a beaver chewed log. :D.

Now its in peoria unless whitpe sold it. I'll have to find another excuse to drive out to the land of nobility. I want to plan a trip that takes me through Iowa and missouri and beyond to meet up with forum members. Stacy's graduation is crimping us right now or we would be planning it!

I also want to go out east via Wenrichville.

Ron Wenrich · May 19, 2003, 06:24:53 PM

I thought I read somewhere that they used to burn the inside of a dugout. Considering they didn't have steel, digging out with flint might be a daunting task.

Rocks in the bottom of the boats probably was to keep them in place after they were sunk. Otherwise, they would end up down stream.

Jeff · May 19, 2003, 06:34:05 PM

I would think that burning out would have been the prefered method, but using flint tools to guide the burning process.

When I burnt out my white oak logs, I learned a lot about guiding the fire. One the thing was burning, you could use water to slow burning areas, and to further burn an area, you would scrape it. This would remove the char and expose new fuel. The more you scraped an area, the faster it would burn out.

Gary_Watson · May 19, 2003, 07:57:43 PM

Thats very interesting that you have those pictures of the oaks burning! what was that going to be for ?

I know that the Cherokee people in specific burned out there dug outs also...as far as the other tribes go I'm sure the techniques probably vary some....that is very interesting to hear about the indians using rocks to sink their dug outs...to me it does'nt seem logical to sink a canoe to hide it and with the amount of work it would take to lob many huge rocks until it sinks would probably be a big task. who knows maybe they had other reasons for sinking canoes ???

yea I can't wait to get started on the dug out! I already have Tsalagi(Cherokee) designs in mind for the wood burning along the sides... if only uploading wasn't so tuff I would post some of my Cedar strip deer skin canoe! Its made from all red cedar and deer hide....its not complete just yet though...I have the hides ready I just need to add 2 more ribs along the front...
-hey Jeff if you want I can email you the pictures and maybe you can post them easier?

Gary

Jeff · May 19, 2003, 08:07:08 PM

Posting pics really aint tough, but sure, I'll fix some up for you. Email them to me at jeff@forestryforum.com

The logs are going to be the supports for my office desk. They are burned out and will be used for storage.

Link to why i burn logs

Jeff · May 19, 2003, 08:10:13 PM

I think its probably more logical to hide a canoe using rocks then it would be to leave it out, have it disappear and leave you up the creek so ta speak. :D

Bro. Noble · May 19, 2003, 08:23:19 PM

We used to keep a 28 ft gigging boat at Bryant Creek. If we weren't going to use it for a while, we would sink it. The absence of air helps keep them from rotting but the main reason was to protect them from being torn up by drifts and trash when the creek got up.

Noble

Mark M · May 19, 2003, 10:09:32 PM

Don't let Jeff pull your leg Gary, he's really making a cannon to shoot his dog across the yard. :D :D

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Gary_Watson · May 20, 2003, 09:31:35 PM

O boy now we are shooting helpless little dogs out of hollowed out oak tree logs! thats too much :D
I sure hope it does'nt become a trend! I can see it now..."Ok, fellas' are you ready ? READY.... AIM.... FIRE!!!!

And there they go folks! nearly half dozen miniture poodles flying through the air! ohhhh what a site to see !!!! Be here again next week when we strap cute little bunnies to our new catapolts !!! Tickets are going fast so hurry now and order yours! :D

I sent Jeff an email with me and my canoe in a picture so you all will be able to see what the cedar strip canoe skeleton looks like....I'm putting the deer hide on in a month or so...so it may look a little bare without its skin on...

Gary W.

Fla._Deadheader · May 21, 2003, 04:59:34 AM

Gary, How ya gonna keep the hide from gettin soggy when ya get it wet?? Won't it draw moisture and get soft??
I built a couple of Banjo's and used Groundhog skin. Worked great, as long as the sun was out !!! :

beenthere · May 21, 2003, 08:28:42 AM

Sinking the canoes was apparently a method of "storing" them (and keeping them from blowing away, maybe being stolen (?), and keeping them under the ice in the winter). I understand they were used to get across a lake or river when travelling, as the canoes (dugouts) were not carried across a portage. :

Going cross country meant knowing where the canoes were located, safely stored underwater so they wouldn't crack and hopefully wouldn't be broken up by ice (that must have been tricky).

""Ok kids, we reached the big river. The game is to find a good canoe around here somewhere and get the rocks out, while I shoot some dinner, and Mom prepares a meal, so we can be on our way first thing in the morning. ""

Just a bit easier to travel nowadays.

Jeff · May 22, 2003, 06:44:13 PM

QuoteI sent Jeff an email with me and my canoe in a picture so you all will be able to see what the cedar strip canoe skeleton looks like....I'm putting the deer hide on in a month or so...so it may look a little bare without its skin on...

Gary W.

oops... I forgot. Give me a couple minutes to find it and optimize

Jeff · May 22, 2003, 07:00:39 PM

I found it!

Gary_Watson · May 22, 2003, 08:56:54 PM

Hey thanks Jeff for posting that picture!

well "deadheader" the way to keep the deer skin from getting soaking wet is to treat the hides with special oils much like the traditional way of tanning the hides another way is to use a deep penetrating wax, but oil is the best because it allows the skins to bend when it hits rocks and such.

I don't know about all that sinking boat business! :D
But I will certainly keep an eye out for any sunken canoes on my next fishing trip ;)

Gary W.