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Looking to start a 25,000 to 50,000 MBF per day sawmill

Started by blyons11, January 02, 2022, 02:47:27 PM

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blyons11

Let me start out by saying I'm a crazy entrepreneur and have started multiple successful businesses without industry knowledge...I'm very ignorant in this space but In assessing the current lumber prices, I can not be convinced that timber is being bought, sawn, dried and sold for a cost basis no more than 40 cents per MBF but the market is paying 85-90 cents currently that I believe will be the new norm price going forward after a spike to 1.5-$2 in 2022. My plan is to provide about 15,000 MBF to myself each day and panel frame with it for our tract home business.


Am being sold on a Wravor 1250 line that feeds to a multi ripsaw. I'm only looking to sell dimensional lumber 2x4s and 2x6s mostly providing to myself for the tract home building operation we are running. Finding the kiln is the easy part ...the planer mill making sure I'm buying the right sawmill has been a challenge.

From what I can see online a hurdle saw mill feeding a brewco resaw is being advertised as 20-30mbf per shift. The rep at Wravor is telling me with the below set up I can accomplish the same thing, basically that I can cut a 20" x 16' pine in 2-3 minutes slabbed and few to a Wravor 750 resaw straight into 2 x 4s and 2x 6s.

https://youtu.be/WZxUBYVVAps

Does it sound like a ridiculous assumption? My budget for mill, kiln and planning mill is around 1.5mm. It's imperative I get 25,000 MBF per shift but I'd like to see if I could accomplish 50,000 if possible. It seems like anything over the 25,000 per shift range is custom built tho and you can't just by it online like hurdle, woodmizer or Wravor

All help welcomed!!

Jeff

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Magicman

I didn't see anything as demonstrated that was going to saw/handle ~300 logs per day much less per shift.
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stavebuyer

I helped a man build a Heartwood Horizontal (6") band mill and resaw into a 30k mbf per shift operation sawing 4/4 grade hardwoods. The video you posted appears to be demonstrating the features rather than the production potential as it is almost in slow motion relative to what rate a saw that size and cost would be operating at to reach 30k feet per shift.

Re-saw is the key to production and kerf savings. The most bang for the $$ spent is a Hurdle circle feeding a 2" band resaw. 

The biggest problem with the intermediate bandsaws is once you start getting above 2 inches or so you a need saw filing room and saw filer which is no small task.

The Hurdle and resaw combo is a proven moderate cost 30K concept in 4/4 hardwood and would do that or more easily in pine dimension lumber.

Running at 30K per shift you also will need multiple trucks/loaders and waste handling systems in place and 30 to 90 days log inventory. I think the overall cost to run an operation of that scale would be several times higher than your proposed budget.



Southside

Come over to my place. I can bring you to a SYP mill producing about double your top end production. If I remember correctly their build budget was just under $65 million back in 2008. Chase called their note maybe 60 days post start up and they went around looking for capital. They did it and now have over $100 million into the facility. 
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longtime lurker

What you first need to establish is what the log supply is: Species, size, grade. An efficient sawline starts with having equipment that is suited to the resource. With that budget... maybe. Not the equipment it's the land + buildings + electricity + legislative compliance. You're at a size where you can't cut corners like us bottom feeders.

In sawmills cash does not come in one hand and out the other, there's a time lag between buying logs and selling lumber and you can't expect to not pay the costs while it's happening.  I'd suggest you calculate 25000 per day at 40 cents per, for 120 days just to get an idea of what your working cash requirements are if it's all going smoothly.

Like most businesses it seldom runs smoothly. I've been struggling against the working cash requirement issue for years, it's a tough one... there are times my saws are barely running because I can't afford to turn them on until something else sells, and if the saws aren't running today there's no money coming in 4 months ahead. It's a vicious cycle and I'm established with a customer base, buying your own product will alleviate that for a bit, but not long because part of sawing the product you want is sawing the product you don't want, you'll get along great for a bit then find you've got 10 cents in the bank and a million bucks worth of feedstock, survey pegs and pallet material in the yard. Been there too. 

What I've just written up there all cost money to learn... and blood, sweat, tears, years of my life, and a marriage. If you want to go in at that size you need a bigger budget.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

WV Sawmiller

  Where do you plan to set up this operation and obtain the labor and logs? If not in Europe I'd be concerned about maintenance spares availability. Very good point about the saw filing room, equipment and operator.

  The one helper in the video looks to be younger than some Amish kids I've seen working around their parents farms and mills.

  Nice looking equipment but I sure did not see the kinds of production you are describing and if you did you'd sure have to have some outside crews in addition to the proposed 4 man crew described by the video.
Howard Green
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OwenOren

Quote from: longtime lurker on January 02, 2022, 04:24:54 PM
What you first need to establish is what the log supply is: Species, size, grade. An efficient sawline starts with having equipment that is suited to the resource. With that budget... maybe. Not the equipment it's the land + buildings + electricity + legislative compliance. You're at a size where you can't cut corners like us bottom feeders.

In sawmills cash does not come in one hand and out the other, there's a time lag between buying logs and selling lumber and you can't expect to not pay the costs while it's happening.  I'd suggest you calculate 25000 per day at 40 cents per, for 120 days just to get an idea of what your working cash requirements are if it's all going smoothly.

Like most businesses it seldom runs smoothly. I've been struggling against the working cash requirement issue for years, it's a tough one... there are times my saws are barely running because I can't afford to turn them on until something else sells, and unless the saws are running today they aren't making money 6 months out. It's a vicious cycle and I'm established with a customer base  Buying your own product will alleviate that for a bit, but not long because part of sawing the product you want is sawing the product you don't want, you'll get along great for a bit then find you've got 10 cents in the bank and a million bucks worth of feedstock, survey pegs and pallet material in the yard. Been there too.

What I've just written up there all cost money to learn... and blood, sweat, tears, years of my life, and a marriage. If you want to go in at that size you need a bigger budget, just read my tagline.
Agree completely on the very first bit. Log supply. You need that nailed down - contracts or something to guarantee you never overpay market prices. Logs will be 70%+ of your COGs and getting that first assumption wrong is business ending. 
Where are you based? I'm in northern Europe and can tell you that that log supply is not easy to get consistently in Germany or Norway unless you enter the "big" league. 

OwenOren

I run a mill in northern Europe.

We have one of wravor's competitor Slovenian mills which is let's say is "semi" auto - it has a website refering to 28m3/~10MBf (of logs per 8hr shift). We have all the additions to get to supposedly that number (log deck, hydraulics, outfeed conveyor to waste, product and a semi auto stacker) - even when cutting large spruces in large dimensions we can't get to anywhere above 95% of that number quoted at a run rate for more than a couple of hours.

We don't need to get to that number because we run the mill for quality chalet beams, but out of curiosity we have run it as hard as we could before. Still couldn't get near the number quoted for a full shift.

Say we tried to get to 80% of that number consistently - there would always be "something" that would cause a stoppage. Snowfall, delays in log delivery, power outages, mechanical parts needing fedexing. Unlike most on this forum, labour is the least of our issues (reliable, unionised, educated, sober) - they relished the challenge and worked like horses.

Budget

Back of the envelope I'd suggest a budget of more like $5-10mn is needed for this at the low end. That assumes a well prepared site and no auxiliary spending. 

I think in your first paragraph you note that pricing Vs cash costs would imply profitability - but the misery of this industry is the capital investment costs to get the point of being able to achieve those cash costs is horrifying. I don't not know of an industry with such a high pre-production capex to in production opex (ex log cost) ratio. Production is cheap, once you have a massive mill with lots of bells and whistles...

My personal experience, as an engineer, accountant and a business owner is that the returns on sawmills are really hard work. The capital investment is huge and the variability in profits due to it being a process industry where your key input and ouput prices are rarely within your control... So all you can do is keep process efficiency and be willing to halt production in bad times.

My advice would be to get a turnkey operation designed and priced by one of the big players for midscale sawmills, from log through to reprocessing. Kara or similar in the Nordics do such things.

I'd be very curious about where this is planned for.

SawyerTed

I have spent the last 10 months designing a sawmill much like described.  I hate to break it to you to be competitive you will need closer to 8 times $1.5 million just to build the sawmill, plus the kilns, plus the planer mill plus buildings, plus wiring just to be in the ballpark of 25 MBFT per shift. 

If my calculations are correct 25 MBFT will require 125 logs averaging 16" SED 16' long per shift. I suspect more like 150 logs.  That's 15-20 logs per hour.  If 8' logs double all that. 

A Hurdle will have to run flat out top speed 100% of 8 hours to make 25,000 board feet. Running that hard, it will last as long as it is designed to last.  A Hurdle is a good mill but it's not designed for long term production at that level for many years. Then there are edgers and resaws required. 

There's not a bed style band sawmill that can make those production numbers. Vertical bands or circles are the way to go.

An overhead end dogging carriage feeding a twin band or twin circle saw with vertical edgers is the way to go.  Feed the cants to a gang then boards to a trim saw and you are done.  To recover boards from the slabs a horizontal resaw needs to worked in. 

Even a 100 MBFT kiln will still create a bottle neck.  Our location has 4 50 MBFT kilns and two 90 MBFT kilns. It wasn't enough for the mill that's was here. 

After kiln drying, there's a planer mill.  A 25 MBFT planer mill to dress framing lumber is also "doable" with the right machinery.  The planer mill is its own set of machines, material handling etc

Labor?  Less automation equals less money in machinery equals more people required.  That's a tough way to try to run a sawmill these days. 

Do you have a building for the sawmill, covered air drying area, planer mill building?  The buildings alone are $300,000 EACH if you have to put them up.  Then there's electrical wiring costs, three phase machines will take &40,000 minimum to wire EACH assuming you have the :phase transformers sitting there.

$1.5 million won't touch what you need to be competitive in the framing lumber business. Even being your own supplier to your construction company, production costs will make your lumber more expensive.
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YellowHammer

To do all that, just move the decimal over a notch or two just to get started.

I buy a lot of logs from a 40,000 bdft per shift hardwood sawmill and also a place that does 2 milliton bdft per year.  I can only tell you what I see every week, knowing then and watching their operation, for over 10 years.  

The cost of the sawmill is not only the dominant expense of a big league operation.  Even if it was, I wouldn't do anything that isn't conventional, because in limited net profit production sawmills, evolution to optimization is an every day fact.  Use what works, and don't reinvent the wheel.

Both places have their own dedicated logging crews and trucks, as well as many hot shots.  Both have their own motor pool to keep all their many, many millions of dollars of equipment running.  For example, you will need several $150K JD544 Wheel Loaders or equivalent, one to unload the trucks and sort logs logs and one to feed the debarker and sawmill.  Both of these places have 4 of them, there goes a third of your budget right there.  Then add in a half a dozen $100,000 log trucks, trailers, several skitters, skidders, a couple dozers, mulch trucks, tub grinders, office spaces, work spaces, kilns, a few forklifts for the kins, etc and you are well up and over the 20 million mark without hiring any heavy labor, office employees, timber cruisers, or acquisition personnel.  Plus a road trucking fleet to deliver your product, because if you rely soley on contract trucking, the guy down the road just decided to pay them an extra 10 cents a mile and you are high and dry without a truck in sight.    

If you think you can do it without full dedicated logging crews working for you, that is a mistake.  I have a very small operation and can't rely on contract loggers to feed me.  You must have a core of loggers on your salary to at least try to keep you in logs, despite the rain, the cold, equipment failures, the mill down the road paying 5 cents more per ton,or or they are just plain mad at you.

In order to keep loggers fed, you must have access to lots and lots of land.  High ground when it rains in the winter, low ground for the dry months in the summer.

Don't forget the 50 acres of properly zones land you'll need for your own facility, plus a million dollars in 3 phase installation costs.

Kilns cost big money to build and to operate in a production environment.  Call up a kiln company and price out a ready made, production softwood kiln.  It'll be a quick few million just in kilns to produce 15MBF per week.  Not to mention the support equipment and staff.



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

longtime lurker

Quote from: OwenOren on January 02, 2022, 04:57:17 PM

Agree completely on the very first bit. Log supply. You need that nailed down - contracts or something to guarantee you never overpay market prices. Logs will be 70%+ of your COGs and getting that first assumption wrong is business ending.
Where are you based? I'm in northern Europe and can tell you that that log supply is not easy to get consistently in Germany or Norway unless you enter the "big" league.
Australia.  The big issue I've found is not logs but loggers... I am not big enough to interest the reliable logging contractors and the one thing worse than no logger is an unreliable logger. That has been the very hard lesson of last few years, and it's hurting me again now. But I will survive, grow vertically, and come out the other side.
I see nothing but trouble by becoming "big" Behind this boom the industry will crash and when it crashes it will only be the best in class mega processors, and the best in class smaller operations who survive. The guys who are just "big" go down every time. That works for me...
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

moodnacreek

Even if the sawmill and resaw can do it the logs have to come in and the sawn stuff has to go out. This is a big deal and when prices drop the competition that survived the last recession could be faster and cheaper.

blyons11

This is really good feedback, I appreciate these opinions. I know this is accomplishable more concerned with input regarding HOW it could be done vs why it won't get done.

From what I've gathered on the above - a Hurdle saw mill seems to be the consensus? The land and facility I'm not concerned about, I believe that will be the least challenging part.

Hurdle Heavy weight - Brewco 1600 resaw? What would good options be for planer mills - are we pretty much assuming that used is going to be the only option? I found some new kiln dries online for 110k from ex factory.com for 20kmbf (are those just terrible options)?

Lastly, the the true production I would need is only about 15 MBF per day - that's about 7500 per house for average 1600 sf house. I was thinking it would be nice to produce excess and have opportunity to scale - if the goal is 15000 MBF per shift vs 25-50k, does this seem less crazy to everyone reading this?

Also, I'm in the triad of NC if anyone wants to collaborate!

blyons11

Quote from: moodnacreek on January 02, 2022, 07:10:24 PM
Even if the sawmill and resaw can do it the logs have to come in and the sawn stuff has to go out. This is a big deal and when prices drop the competition that survived the last recession could be faster and cheaper.
True but I'd just be taking the lumber next door to our own panel framing line

blyons11

Quote from: OwenOren on January 02, 2022, 05:18:36 PM
I run a mill in northern Europe.

We have one of wravor's competitor Slovenian mills which is let's say is "semi" auto - it has a website refering to 28m3/~10MBf (of logs per 8hr shift). We have all the additions to get to supposedly that number (log deck, hydraulics, outfeed conveyor to waste, product and a semi auto stacker) - even when cutting large spruces in large dimensions we can't get to anywhere above 95% of that number quoted at a run rate for more than a couple of hours.

We don't need to get to that number because we run the mill for quality chalet beams, but out of curiosity we have run it as hard as we could before. Still couldn't get near the number quoted for a full shift.

Say we tried to get to 80% of that number consistently - there would always be "something" that would cause a stoppage. Snowfall, delays in log delivery, power outages, mechanical parts needing fedexing. Unlike most on this forum, labour is the least of our issues (reliable, unionised, educated, sober) - they relished the challenge and worked like horses.

Budget

Back of the envelope I'd suggest a budget of more like $5-10mn is needed for this at the low end. That assumes a well prepared site and no auxiliary spending.

I think in your first paragraph you note that pricing Vs cash costs would imply profitability - but the misery of this industry is the capital investment costs to get the point of being able to achieve those cash costs is horrifying. I don't not know of an industry with such a high pre-production capex to in production opex (ex log cost) ratio. Production is cheap, once you have a massive mill with lots of bells and whistles...

My personal experience, as an engineer, accountant and a business owner is that the returns on sawmills are really hard work. The capital investment is huge and the variability in profits due to it being a process industry where your key input and ouput prices are rarely within your control... So all you can do is keep process efficiency and be willing to halt production in bad times.

My advice would be to get a turnkey operation designed and priced by one of the big players for midscale sawmills, from log through to reprocessing. Kara or similar in the Nordics do such things.

I'd be very curious about where this is planned for.
This is really helpful - sorry 1.5mm was just for the equipment, not the land and buildings.
I got quoted a Wravor 1250 w a 750 multi rip and hydraulics , operator cab etc for 600k…seemed like a decent deal. Knowing that you’re getting roughly 10k MBF per shift, do you think averaging 15k Is more doable with a Wravor 1250. I was thinking if I went straight to 20” softwoods and ran 6 inch cants after slabbing through the resaw I could get the logs through in 6 or so cuts.

Lastly, the published rate on Wravors website is I think 24k MBF per 8 hour shift -  are you saying that 80% of that is probably more in-line with what to expect…or do you think even that is too aggressive?

Dave Shepard

I've watched a lot of high production dimensional mills on YouTube. Some sort of scragg or end dogging mill is used to knock the first two slabs off, then the cant goes into a resaw. Carriage type mills seem to be more for hardwood grade break down, not high production softwoods. This is just observation, so take it for what it's worth. Being the fourth largest sawmill in my county sounds impressive, until you find out there are only four sawmills in my county. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

YellowHammer

It's the first of the year, my New Years resolution is to be nice, so I deleted my post and will only say "good luck."

However, as a general rule, when someone gets input from professional sawmill operators and owners from all over the world, who have no agenda other than to help, it's probably a good idea to listen.



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Ricker

You got the money to buy equipment that is available.  But to find as many decent sawlogs you are going to need and it does not sound like you are currently involved with the local logging community is going to be a problem.  Have all the equipment and the help you want but no logs and it all comes to a halt.  That's when it gets expensive.

Dave Shepard

I wonder how many of the sawmills currently operating at high production rates were built to run at that level versus started out small and grew to that size. I would think that after spending 15 or 20 million to get your physical plant operational, you'd probably want another 5 in cash or line of credit to pay the bills until everthing settles down. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Southside

Fancy, glossy, brochures from equipment manufacturers look great, but they don't pay the bills.  For the production you are talking about - at least in the beginning of this - you really would be into a chip and saw operation and likely curve sawing technology in order to keep the margins necessary, so move the decimal point.  It's all about log yield.  The next issue is all the residuals. You will need a debarker, and the means to handle all the material that will generate.  You will need a hog or chipper, along with collection for bark, chips, sawdust, and shavings.  You are not going to get all 2x material from your logs - well you can but forget about log optimization.  So what is your market for the 1" material?  You are not going to get 2x stamped material out of the juvenile wood sawing SYP - that will go into the PT world as 6x's and such.  So now you need to build a treatment plant, or plan on selling it to your competition for lower than the cost of their production.  What are you going to do with all the 2x material that doesn't make grade?  How are you going to heat the kilns?  Presuming you plan to burn some of your residual then you need a boiler.

Your idea of only buying 20" logs - ummm, shop that around to some logging outfits.  You are in SYP plantation country, believe it or not those 20" small end logs are getting harder to find, and finding 50MBF a day?  

Not trying to burst your bubble here but 2x SYP is a commodity product, and by definition is basically break even with the margins being made on volume.  There is no value to add to it. Nobody is going to care where a stamped #2 stud comes from, the only thing they look at in the lumber packet is the price, and if yours are $0.50 more than any other mill you won't be moving them.    

I wish you the best with your endeavor, but if you were standing here I would seriously encourage you to visit a number of sawmills and see how many people are there, how much equipment is there, and how much capitol is actually tied up in them so you don't walk into things unprepared. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

longtime lurker

The Hurdle consensus has been developed in a vacuum - you still haven't given any input into what your log resource is in terms of species size and grade. So a Hurdle may or may not be right for your logs. They're a fast tie mill by design, and they have limitations.
Ted suggested an overhead end dogging carriage fed twin. That will run rings around a Hurdle and would be the way I'd lean if you've got the right logs for it.
There's 2 guys posting here familiar with 6" bands - again it may be an option, if you've got the right type of logs. You start running them you're going to need a full debarker at least as fast as the headsaw, and that only works to keep the outside the logs clean. Any pipe and it's a fail.
One of those guys is saying look at the Kara system or similar... again in the right logs it's a winner.

In another life - well lets just say I know my way around the heavy equipment business and this quote here "I think in your first paragraph you note that pricing Vs cash costs would imply profitability - but the misery of this industry is the capital investment costs to get the point of being able to achieve those cash costs is horrifying. I don't not know of an industry with such a high pre-production capex to in production opex (ex log cost) ratio. Production is cheap, once you have a massive mill with lots of bells and whistles...

My personal experience, as an engineer, accountant and a business owner is that the returns on sawmills are really hard work. The capital investment is huge and the variability in profits due to it being a process industry where your key input and ouput prices are rarely within your control... So all you can do is keep process efficiency and be willing to halt production in bad times."
  is really really worth paying attention to. This is not earthmoving or construction - when you start sawing framing your business has to be globally competitive not just locally. The current price you pay for pine framing isn't set by the mill down the road it's set by the 50 largest sawlines in the world most of which aren't even in your country, much less your county. You just don't realise it... but that mill down the road only stays afloat because of the road freight & distribution component of the lumber price compared to his competitor buying pine in New Zealand, processing in Guangzhou and freighting it around the world. The current high lumber prices are only because of shipping bottlenecks in the global supply chain, and they won't be there forever.

That said - yes, a 15000 a day mill is a lot more achievable. To hit 25-50 mBF a day you need either a serious piece of equipment like a R200 or R250 Hewsaw or you're running with somebody elses castoffs and they cast them off for a reason you'll soon enough discover next downturn when you're trying to compete with that R250 Hewsaw.  Sawlines aren't like heavy equipment... you don't just send a D10 when the D8's not big enough, the entire system has to be sized to suit. Your production will always be limited by the slowest component of the system so they need to integrate well.

However there are quite a few systems that can do 12-15 mBF a day that are competitive and efficient. They wont compete with the inline quad canter class operation, but they'll be viable when the older type big sawline has gone under.

Newman Whitney double roughing planer is the machine you want in the planer mill. Theres a few others, but they're all variations on that theme.




The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

SawyerTed

If it could be done for $1.5 million and produce framing lumber that is competitive with the large commercial mills, there would have been a dozen mills pop up here in the Piedmont in the last year. That's not been the case.  In fact some in the region have closed their doors 

As has been shared here, there's more to it than buying a head rig that will saw X amount in Y time. Just the lead time on machinery is too far out to bet on the price of lumber today.  

I concur Good Luck. 

Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

blyons11

Quote from: longtime lurker on January 02, 2022, 08:15:09 PM
The Hurdle consensus has been developed in a vacuum - you still haven't given any input into what your log resource is in terms of species size and grade. So a Hurdle may or may not be right for your logs. They're a fast tie mill by design, and they have limitations.
Ted suggested an overhead end dogging carriage fed twin. That will run rings around a Hurdle and would be the way I'd lean if you've got the right logs for it.
There's 2 guys posting here familiar with 6" bands - again it may be an option, if you've got the right type of logs. You start running them you're going to need a full debarker at least as fast as the headsaw, and that only works to keep the outside the logs clean. Any pipe and it's a fail.
One of those guys is saying look at the Kara system or similar... again in the right logs it's a winner.

In another life - well lets just say I know my way around the heavy equipment business and this quote here "I think in your first paragraph you note that pricing Vs cash costs would imply profitability - but the misery of this industry is the capital investment costs to get the point of being able to achieve those cash costs is horrifying. I don't not know of an industry with such a high pre-production capex to in production opex (ex log cost) ratio. Production is cheap, once you have a massive mill with lots of bells and whistles...

My personal experience, as an engineer, accountant and a business owner is that the returns on sawmills are really hard work. The capital investment is huge and the variability in profits due to it being a process industry where your key input and ouput prices are rarely within your control... So all you can do is keep process efficiency and be willing to halt production in bad times."
  is really really worth paying attention to. This is not earthmoving or construction - when you start sawing framing your business has to be globally competitive not just locally. The current price you pay for pine framing isn't set by the mill down the road it's set by the 50 largest sawlines in the world most of which aren't even in your country, much less your county. You just don't realise it... but that mill down the road only stays afloat because of the road freight & distribution component of the lumber price compared to his competitor buying pine in New Zealand, processing in Guangzhou and freighting it around the world. The current high lumber prices are only because of shipping bottlenecks in the global supply chain, and they won't be there forever.

That said - yes, a 15000 a day mill is a lot more achievable. To hit 25-50 mBF a day you need either a serious piece of equipment like a R250 Hewsaw or you're running with somebody elses castoffs and they cast them off for a reason you'll soon enough discover next downturn when you're trying to compete with that R250 Hewsaw.  Sawlines aren't like heavy equipment... you don't just send a D10 when the D8's not big enough, the entire system has to be sized to suit. Your production will always be limited by the slowest component of the system so they need to integrate well.

However there are quite a few systems that can do 12-15 mBF a day that are competitive and efficient. They wont compete with the R250 Hewsaw class operation, but they'll be viable when the older type big sawline has gone under.

Newman Whitney double roughing planer is the machine you want in the planer mill. Theres a few others, but they're all variations on that theme.
Thanks for the feedback.
Sorry the economics are as follows : pine can be bought in our market consistently over the last 10 years and foreseeable future for $30 per ton. Let's assume am increase to $40 per ton. From what I've gathered your are looking at 4-5 tons per 1000 MBF. That puts us at roughly 15-20cents per MBF for raw logs.
I could give you a whole spreadsheet but let's just assume I'm in the ballpark of cutting, drying and planing for another 20-25 cents per MBF. That puts us in the 40-50 cents range for retail what is going right now for 90 cent per MBF.
Understanding that there are only a handful of players that set the market, my assumption is that prices will fluctuate between 1 and $2 per 1000mbf through out 2022 but I do believe prices will stabilize at 80-90 cents when it all shakes out.
That being said we are in SYP and SPF territory and I have a couple relationships with guys who already cut raw land for us in the siteworks business who have indicated they would happily cut on a contract basis- I'm also scoping out a few tracts to put timber options on. Understanding yes, that will be difficult but I feel confident in the ability to lock in 6-12 months worth of product.
My plans for waste was to chip and dye it brown to use as mulch in our neighborhoods, am also exploring wood fiber erosion production as we currently spend a lot of money on straw wattles and straw blankets.
The end goal would be to provide 15000 MBF to ourselves a day (250 days per year) at 50 cents per vs buying it from builders first source or whomever. We would then panel frame our starter homes in a factory and send to a job site.
It seems like the biggest concern on the site is generally the availability of logs, which I appreciate but I do think with timber contracts and the few solid relationships I have that will be enough to get from A to B. I'm much more concerned I drop a lot of money on equipment that can't produce what I was hoping it would. The production numbers for 15000 MBF on the Wravor 1250 seem to be doable but vendors lie all the time so am trying to verify somehow. I have not talked to anyone at hurdle so that would be my next step.

blyons11

Quote from: SawyerTed on January 02, 2022, 08:15:28 PM
If it could be done for $1.5 million and produce framing lumber that is competitive with the large commercial mills, there would have been a dozen mills pop up here in the Piedmont in the last year. That's not been the case.  In fact some in the region have closed their doors

As has been shared here, there's more to it than buying a head rig that will saw X amount in Y time. Just the lead time on machinery is too far out to bet on the price of lumber today.  

I concur Good Luck.
Sorry yea, 1.5mm was just for the equipment, not land building etc.
You're in Germanton not too far from me , what are you seeing regarding availability  of pines 16" on your end. The answer I keep running into is that if "you're willing to pay" they're out there 

Southside

Guys are delivering SYP sawlogs for $30 / ton? Wow. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SawyerTed

Sawlog prices are well above $30 per ton for pine.  $30 per ton is for pulp wood.  A production mill will not survive trying to make framing lumber out of pulpwood logs. 

There aren't many pine tracts around that produce lots of 16" sawlogs within a reasonable distance of our mill.  We wouldn't survive trying to saw pine framing lumber on the quantity of pine sawlogs around this area.  We concentrate sawlogs and sell to other mills. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

longtime lurker

At 15000 BF a day: The wravor would be worth a look, also the Mebor and I really like the look of the Resch&3. I have no idea on the prices of these things, just that the equipment has a good rep and appears to be able to do the job. The Select out of Canada also well worth a look, though the general consensus is that they're best regarded as a single cut band rather than a double cut unless you're got a really good saw shop close handy. I don't know if Sanborn are still in business but they do a handy mid sized carriage band mill.

For circles the Kara or Laimet systems will get you there, as will a US style carriage mill like a Hurdle, or any of the others. Plenty of them out there second hand and they're cheap horsepower. An overhead end doggier will do it easier and makes a better board if you know how to use one properly but they like neither low grade nor oversize logs, however in logs they like they're hard to beat. My preference is always for a circle headsaw of some sort: circles can cop a beating and cut deep better and faster than any of the mid sized bandmills, and headsaws are all about cutting deep fast.

Behind that you want a resaw. Circle gangs are fast but not super efficient unless you have state of the art shifting saw designs. You can look at the multi head thin band setups like woodmizer etc, or something like a West Plains 500 system. (If you're already running a mid sized band headsaw the wider band resaw like the west plains makes a lot of sense.)  The West Plains is a castoff from the 25mBF mill that can't compete anymore, but it's still awful effective with a lot of spare capacity in a 15mBF mill. Sash gangs are going the way of the dodo but in the right operation they are a dead set moneymaker and need consideration. A PRP-58 is a lot of bang for your buck if the resource is straight and consistant
You'll also need a single cut resaw circle or band for resawing stuff from the resaw that goes out of grade and needs ripping, plus a board edger.  A lot of efficiency comes from not clogging up the production equipment doing clean up work when it should be busting down cants, but it also needs to be integrated into the line to get the material to and from it effectively.

These are just the big components, it's all the stuff around them that really costs money and that will make you or break you. Debarker at the front if you have band headsaw, all the transfers for sawn materials and waste processing and handling lines... most of which you'll have to custom fabricate to make your machinery choices fit your buildings. Kilns are expensive but pretty much plug and play, and drymill lines to rougher header stage aren't complex. But it all adds up to a lot of coin. Auto stackers and stick placers can be got secondhand and save a lot of  dumb labour on the back end.

Best advice I can give you is to start logging miles looking at sawmilling operations near and far. You're looking for ideas, you're looking for potential suppliers, you're looking for takeover targets, you're looking for joint venture partners. Remember that your goal is to get consistent supply at a fair price, and that setting up your own mill is just one way to do that. As a businessman and a sawmiller I'd give my left ball to have the right guy with what you have -  lump sum cash and a guaranteed outlet - walk in the door. Be open to options is what I'm saying.

One thing I will say is that yanno... if it was easy anyone could do it... applies in this business probably more than any other I know of. Or as I tell guys when they ask about setting up to cut a few boards: be careful you just might like it. It's a tough business and it takes a couple generations (or a lot of startup capital) to build a good one from scratch.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

mike_belben

theres a few used hurdles for sale in tennessee on fb marketplace.  two in jamestown.  

bestway south up in stony point NC is the pressure treater for all the knoxville region lowes and homedepots.. a pretty insatiable market.  i sure wouldnt try to build my own treating facility based on how much capital is tied up in that operation. 
Praise The Lord

Crossroads

Quote from: Southside on January 02, 2022, 08:58:43 PM
Guys are delivering SYP sawlogs for $30 / ton? Wow.
I can't even get oversized blued pine for that. I tried when a logger called me asking if I was interested in it. Now he doesn't even give me a chance to buy from him. 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

OwenOren

Quote from: blyons11 on January 02, 2022, 07:15:12 PM
Quote from: OwenOren on January 02, 2022, 05:18:36 PM
I run a mill in northern Europe.

We have one of wravor's competitor Slovenian mills which is let's say is "semi" auto - it has a website refering to 28m3/~10MBf (of logs per 8hr shift). We have all the additions to get to supposedly that number (log deck, hydraulics, outfeed conveyor to waste, product and a semi auto stacker) - even when cutting large spruces in large dimensions we can't get to anywhere above 95% of that number quoted at a run rate for more than a couple of hours.

We don't need to get to that number because we run the mill for quality chalet beams, but out of curiosity we have run it as hard as we could before. Still couldn't get near the number quoted for a full shift.

Say we tried to get to 80% of that number consistently - there would always be "something" that would cause a stoppage. Snowfall, delays in log delivery, power outages, mechanical parts needing fedexing. Unlike most on this forum, labour is the least of our issues (reliable, unionised, educated, sober) - they relished the challenge and worked like horses.

Budget

Back of the envelope I'd suggest a budget of more like $5-10mn is needed for this at the low end. That assumes a well prepared site and no auxiliary spending.

I think in your first paragraph you note that pricing Vs cash costs would imply profitability - but the misery of this industry is the capital investment costs to get the point of being able to achieve those cash costs is horrifying. I don't not know of an industry with such a high pre-production capex to in production opex (ex log cost) ratio. Production is cheap, once you have a massive mill with lots of bells and whistles...

My personal experience, as an engineer, accountant and a business owner is that the returns on sawmills are really hard work. The capital investment is huge and the variability in profits due to it being a process industry where your key input and ouput prices are rarely within your control... So all you can do is keep process efficiency and be willing to halt production in bad times.

My advice would be to get a turnkey operation designed and priced by one of the big players for midscale sawmills, from log through to reprocessing. Kara or similar in the Nordics do such things.

I'd be very curious about where this is planned for.
This is really helpful - sorry 1.5mm was just for the equipment, not the land and buildings.
I got quoted a Wravor 1250 w a 750 multi rip and hydraulics , operator cab etc for 600k...seemed like a decent deal. Knowing that you're getting roughly 10k MBF per shift, do you think averaging 15k Is more doable with a Wravor 1250. I was thinking if I went straight to 20" softwoods and ran 6 inch cants after slabbing through the resaw I could get the logs through in 6 or so cuts.

Lastly, the published rate on Wravors website is I think 24k MBF per 8 hour shift -  are you saying that 80% of that is probably more in-line with what to expect...or do you think even that is too aggressive?
I'd say even that is too aggressive. I'm conservative, so I'd aim for my base case production to be at 50% of quoted capacity. The companies just put their max capacity "in theory" on website. Just like woodmizer - I'm yet to meet anyone who can get close to what the LT70 can do (consistently)...the issue is the waste handling and maintenance. 
I guess the best way would be to ask to visit someone using this wravor setup in Europe and see what they get to. I'm sure a lot of polish/Eastern European "commodity lumber" mid-scale mills run these on 3 shifts 24hrs and run them hard as possible with cheap labour.
I'm not a big producer - but my inclination would be to get one of the Finnish made commercial scale ops to quote you a turnkey line. Less labour, less faff. All connected up and ready to turn on. Hewsaw make lines which I see in Sweden for this sort of scale.
I made my mill from curiousity with a non-milling background. I rapidly downscaled my intentions when I researched the market and instead found my niche and we produce c. 1000m3 (400,000bdf) per annum of finished product with a c. 1.5man full time equivalent operation.

customsawyer

I've been approached a few times in the last year to year and a half to set up a operation doing the same thing that you are talking about. I've had the guys fly into the little town of Dublin, GA. and come look at my operation and try to hire me to set up theirs. Not a one of them have done anything that I know of. It's not easy to make it all work and you will need good folks in every step of the process. I wish you the best of luck.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Peter Drouin

It's a lot of work. And $$$ up front. I think about that when I have 10 of thousands $$ sitting in the yard. Less and fewer loggers. 
Now my lull needs $4,000 in work. {my log mover and lumber]
It will be a week or two to fix, Using the John deer now. Production is cut in half. I have some lifts of lumber I can't lift with John. Or get to. The 1044 will lift 10,000lb. I have loads of logs coming in today too. It will be fun. ::) ::) ::) ::)
Good luck
 
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

slowmiller

We run a very small, vertically integrated mill in the northeast and frequently drive ourselves crazy thinking about getting bigger and more efficient. It seems to us like there are certain sizes you can be and make things work, smaller and production cost is too high, larger and you get into a whole new set of problems without the production to cover the added cost. Visiting other mills doing a similar thing may help you figure out what size works for your area.

Around here the pine mills seem to shoot for 100 mbf / day and they do it with a headsaw or two (circle or band) feeding a gangsaw or multi head resaw then an unscrambler, optimizing edger, and trimmer, grader, sorter, and stacker. A log scanner / positioner / optimizer is very important in these set ups. These mills run 10" to 24" logs in 12' and 16' lengths. Below 100 mbf a day I dont think you can justify and capital cost.

For the output you need I would be looking at set ups to produce say 50mbf / day to give room for low grade, optimistic production numbers, and break downs. I would look hard at scrag mills and look into finding a 8-14" diameter log resource to feed it (small logs, small defects). The kilns will need to be fired with sawmill waste unless gas is really cheap. Wood waste boilers are really expensive. I would want a minimum of 3, 50 mbf kilns to have a chance of keeping up with the 25 mbf / day output.

Can you do it? Sure but not for the given budget. But I think you have some advantages here that can make up for the over budget on the mill. For example, you will need a grading and trimming line but if you can use the trimmers to precut studs and cut the #3 stock into blocking or upgrade it by trimming it down for things like jack studs then you have a definite advantage compared to the commodity mills. Stable markets for the waste products are huge and a lack of trucking to the panel shop is very helpful.

good luck

Ron Wenrich

When I sawed white pine for cabin stock, I could saw the 15-20 Mbf per day.  The size of logs were normally 12" and up.  But, the output was mainly in 6x8 cants with the side cuts in 2" stock.  The clear lumber was kept in 4/4 stock.  1x4 and 1x6 were turned into T&G for paneling.  We would only saw a couple of weeks a year in white pine, mainly due to the limited availability of pine in our area. 

In hardwoods, to get to 15 Mbf, I had to be cutting tulip poplar or long oak into either bridge timbers or switch ties. 

I also worked in a mill that did a consistent 20 Mbf/day on a hand carriage.  But, we were cutting long tulip poplar and heavy thickness to get to that kind of production.  We had no kiln or planing mill.

15 Mbf of logs is about 3 trailerloads per day on a consistent basis.  We had 2-3 logging crews to produce that volume, as there were also veneer logs that came out of that as well as firewood and some pulp.  We had crews that could produce the wood.  We also had 3 truck drivers that would haul that wood, as well as lumber.

We would produce about a truckload of bark every other day, a load of sawdust every other day, and a load of chips every day.  We had a market for everything that came out of the mill.  Nothing on speculation.  Timber was bought mainly from consulting foresters, which means they were paying top dollar on bid sales.

What brought them success?  Every manager was a working manager.  No one sitting in the office.  The owner drove truck, and when cell phones came out, he was on that while he was driving.  The owners also spent 60-70 hrs per week working.  They farmed their maintenance out as well as any other to keep labor costs down.  They had years of producing top quality lumber and veneer logs which resulted in good, solid markets.  They didn't borrow money, but started small and built into the operation by paying in cash.  They had a workforce that worked well together and got the job done without needing to micro manage.  There were also tons of experience in all their workers.

I also did some work for a guy that had all the answers.  He borrowed $6 million to put in a mill that utilized urban logs with a $0 input for logs.  He went bankrupt.  His plan looked good on paper.  He was in a high end market area with few to no mills.  He was going to put in kilns, and sell lumber and make a ton of money.  But, his failure was in unfamiliarity with the business, a workforce that wasn't productive, and the need to micromanage.  He overestimated his selling price and underestimated his production costs. 

I'm not sure where you fit on that spectrum. It seems that you already have a market for the wood you use in construction.   I think if you start out small scale and get some experience producing and using the wood you produce, you would be further ahead than walking into it with little experience in the trade.  If you can't profit by producing your own wood, you won't profit by trying to match market conditions where there is more competition and people with a lot more experience.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

blyons11

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 03, 2022, 09:04:10 AM
When I sawed white pine for cabin stock, I could saw the 15-20 Mbf per day.  The size of logs were normally 12" and up.  But, the output was mainly in 6x8 cants with the side cuts in 2" stock.  The clear lumber was kept in 4/4 stock.  1x4 and 1x6 were turned into T&G for paneling.  We would only saw a couple of weeks a year in white pine, mainly due to the limited availability of pine in our area.  

In hardwoods, to get to 15 Mbf, I had to be cutting tulip poplar or long oak into either bridge timbers or switch ties.  

I also worked in a mill that did a consistent 20 Mbf/day on a hand carriage.  But, we were cutting long tulip poplar and heavy thickness to get to that kind of production.  We had no kiln or planing mill.

15 Mbf of logs is about 3 trailerloads per day on a consistent basis.  We had 2-3 logging crews to produce that volume, as there were also veneer logs that came out of that as well as firewood and some pulp.  We had crews that could produce the wood.  We also had 3 truck drivers that would haul that wood, as well as lumber.

We would produce about a truckload of bark every other day, a load of sawdust every other day, and a load of chips every day.  We had a market for everything that came out of the mill.  Nothing on speculation.  Timber was bought mainly from consulting foresters, which means they were paying top dollar on bid sales.

What brought them success?  Every manager was a working manager.  No one sitting in the office.  The owner drove truck, and when cell phones came out, he was on that while he was driving.  The owners also spent 60-70 hrs per week working.  They farmed their maintenance out as well as any other to keep labor costs down.  They had years of producing top quality lumber and veneer logs which resulted in good, solid markets.  They didn't borrow money, but started small and built into the operation by paying in cash.  They had a workforce that worked well together and got the job done without needing to micro manage.  There were also tons of experience in all their workers.

I also did some work for a guy that had all the answers.  He borrowed $6 million to put in a mill that utilized urban logs with a $0 input for logs.  He went bankrupt.  His plan looked good on paper.  He was in a high end market area with few to no mills.  He was going to put in kilns, and sell lumber and make a ton of money.  But, his failure was in unfamiliarity with the business, a workforce that wasn't productive, and the need to micromanage.  He overestimated his selling price and underestimated his production costs.  

I'm not sure where you fit on that spectrum. It seems that you already have a market for the wood you use in construction.   I think if you start out small scale and get some experience producing and using the wood you produce, you would be further ahead than walking into it with little experience in the trade.  If you can't profit by producing your own wood, you won't profit by trying to match market conditions where there is more competition and people with a lot more experience.
Thanks for your feedback- Yes I do not have all the answers and am really green in this space so this helps. Knowing more about can make you go bankrupt is way more important than swagging at profit so very well said.
Regarding the micormanagment, you couldn't be more right. This is early on but knowing this a 12 month + project my gameplan is going to be to find the guy to run it and give him a slice of ownership with room for more upside. I've had success with that structure in the past.
I'm starting to gather that 15K MBF per day is much more achievable earlier on than 20K - 50K. I do think the gameplan on not trying to be in retail sales but rather just trying to produce what we're going to use internally has a lot of benefits and makes life way easier. I.E not having to worry about AR and less lag time between purchase and cash flow.
What kind of saw were you using if you don't mind me asking?
Also I'm basing my assumptions on around 250 working days per year with 8 hour shifts - 4 on 1 lunch and 4 on.
Did the mill you operate run more days per year than that? If industry standard is closer to 300 days / weekends etc than my daily output could be a little less.
90% of what I'll need to produce are 2 x 4's & 2 x 6's with half of those as studs and not needing to be #2 or better.
If there was a way to buy logs, contract cut and contract Kiln - I'd much prefer that but don't see that being a reasonable option for current market dynamics. 

blyons11

Quote from: slowmiller on January 03, 2022, 08:53:14 AM
We run a very small, vertically integrated mill in the northeast and frequently drive ourselves crazy thinking about getting bigger and more efficient. It seems to us like there are certain sizes you can be and make things work, smaller and production cost is too high, larger and you get into a whole new set of problems without the production to cover the added cost. Visiting other mills doing a similar thing may help you figure out what size works for your area.

Around here the pine mills seem to shoot for 100 mbf / day and they do it with a headsaw or two (circle or band) feeding a gangsaw or multi head resaw then an unscrambler, optimizing edger, and trimmer, grader, sorter, and stacker. A log scanner / positioner / optimizer is very important in these set ups. These mills run 10" to 24" logs in 12' and 16' lengths. Below 100 mbf a day I dont think you can justify and capital cost.

For the output you need I would be looking at set ups to produce say 50mbf / day to give room for low grade, optimistic production numbers, and break downs. I would look hard at scrag mills and look into finding a 8-14" diameter log resource to feed it (small logs, small defects). The kilns will need to be fired with sawmill waste unless gas is really cheap. Wood waste boilers are really expensive. I would want a minimum of 3, 50 mbf kilns to have a chance of keeping up with the 25 mbf / day output.

Can you do it? Sure but not for the given budget. But I think you have some advantages here that can make up for the over budget on the mill. For example, you will need a grading and trimming line but if you can use the trimmers to precut studs and cut the #3 stock into blocking or upgrade it by trimming it down for things like jack studs then you have a definite advantage compared to the commodity mills. Stable markets for the waste products are huge and a lack of trucking to the panel shop is very helpful.

good luck
It's funny you say that because I originally started looking at scragg mills or chip and saws but it looks like you can't give bigger than 16" diameter for most of the stuff that I see online.
I've talked to a couple consultants who swear that I CANT produce quality 2x4s #2 or better or just regular studs. Is that true? Or do people do that all of the time? If scragg or chip and saw is viable - I would much prefer that route from a cost standpoint. 

SawyerTed

Quote from: blyons11 on January 02, 2022, 02:47:27 PM
Let me start out by saying I'm a crazy entrepreneur and have started multiple successful businesses without industry knowledge...I'm very ignorant in this space but In assessing the current lumber prices, I can not be convinced that timber is being bought, sawn, dried and sold for a cost basis no more than 40 cents per MBF but the market is paying 85-90 cents currently that I believe will be the new norm price going forward after a spike to 1.5-$2 in 2022.
A company like Weyerhauser makes 4.6 billion board feet of structural lumber annually according to their 2020 Annual Report.  Their production is high and margins are low per unit.  When they sell that many board feet at +/- $0.50 a board foot they aren't seeing the $.80 to $.90 plus per board foot that the retailers are getting. 

This video is of Weyerhauser's Mississippi mills.  Look at all the other stuff that is not a head rig sawing lumber.  This is what a small operation trying to saw graded and stamped construction framing lumber is competing against. It is very difficult to be competitive sawing framing lumber when the competition cuts as much lumber in ONE HOUR as you can cut in EIGHT HOURS.
  
https://youtu.be/d27YY0e32Q8 

I think in the end the OP would be better off trying to buy the 1.9 million board feet per year of framing lumber directly from Weyerhauser than make it himself.  Fewer headaches and better protection against the changes in the economy.  The big mistake when you use 7,500 board feet of lumber a day is paying anything near retail for it. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Ron Wenrich

I was running a Morbark 4 headblock automatic 42" opening using hydraulic over electric circle mill.  I also had a veritcal edger and a computerized setworks.  We ran 4 9 hr days and 1 4 hr day.  The 4 hr day was set up so that maintenance could be done without guys working on the weekends.  Lots of preventative maintenance that kept the mill running during the week.

We had a mill foreman that ran the debarker, unloaded logs, loaded trucks, moved lumber piles, and jockeyed trailers.  He also did the Friday maintenance.  I was a contract worker and got paid to saw by the Mbf.  There was one man who marked boards for end trimming, and graded lumber.  He also tended the chipper when needed.  We had 2 guys stacking lumber.  The workday started at 7:00 and the saw stopped at 12:00.  During the 45 min lunch, I got to eat, then get the saw ready for the 12:45-4:00 run.  I got the saw ready for the next day's sawing after 4:00.  There were no breaks.  I geared my sawing to get the most out of labor without wearing them out.  Too cold, they could go in and get warm.  Too hot, we had fans.  But, the speed of sawing was paced not to overwhelm the help.

We didn't have a resaw.  That would have upped production, but then there's more stress on the logging crews, timber buyers and truckers.  Sometimes being big isn't as important as being comfortable. 

I'm not real versed in the softwood end of things.  If you're looking to make 2x4 & 2x6 lumber, why do you want to concentrate on 16" logs?  Seems those stud logs would be cheaper to buy.  A scragg or chip and saw would produce lumber probably quicker than a traditional circle mill carriage. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

moodnacreek


WDH

Ted,

I worked for Weyerhaeuser and worked on the log supply side on projects at that mill in Magnolia.  Normally ran two shifts per day but at times it ran 3 shifts per day.  Production capacity at three shifts full out was one million bf per day.

The mills at Plymouth, NC and Greenville, NC are similar sized.  They use up to 180 tractor trailer loads of pine logs per day.  
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

longtime lurker

On one of my trips I got a look at Hampton's Willamina operation, back when it was in the world's top ten by volume. I had one of those moments of supreme clarity as I was watching logs suck into the quad; there's no way to compete with that, so don't even try.

Still, as a buyer of pine framing lumber rather than a producer, with freight and distribution costs and everyone making a markup along the way... yeah maybe there's a business case for sawing your own. My business runs on the same principle... I can't match the big guys here on cost of production, but cost of production + freight+ lumber yard margins and I can make a decent living at it.
Logs are the issue, those big guys will outbid you just to make your life hard if they want to, particularly now with demand high.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Dave Shepard

I haven't made the call, yet, but I hear ewp is back up. Not only do I have to compete with the export market, but they will take anything that looks like a log, even if it's from the tree services. I'm not paying a premium for barb wire, four nails in the layout of a posted sign, and clothesline pulleys. :-\
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Southside

Don't forget about ceramic insulators, horse shoes, crescent wrenches, and small children. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Dave Shepard

Ceramic is the worst. You know it's ceramic before you even shut the mill down. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

mike_belben

Quote from: SawyerTed on January 03, 2022, 02:08:32 PM
I think in the end the OP would be better off trying to buy the 1.9 million board feet per year of framing lumber directly from Weyerhauser than make it himself.  Fewer headaches and better protection against the changes in the economy.  The big mistake when you use 7,500 board feet of lumber a day is paying anything near retail for it.
That sounds like a much better way IMO.  Idaho timber gets railed in on the spur at nichols street in henderson NC.   Its probably a lot cheaper to get a few moffet trucks and a warehouse building and just be a volume buyer who supplies himself and the other builders.  
Strap only, no tarp lumber is the cheapest open deck freight to have moved. It may seem high when you are paying the bill but as the driver i can tell you few loads paid less than coming out of there. 
Praise The Lord

blyons11

Quote from: mike_belben on January 03, 2022, 10:55:25 PM
Quote from: SawyerTed on January 03, 2022, 02:08:32 PM
I think in the end the OP would be better off trying to buy the 1.9 million board feet per year of framing lumber directly from Weyerhauser than make it himself.  Fewer headaches and better protection against the changes in the economy.  The big mistake when you use 7,500 board feet of lumber a day is paying anything near retail for it.
That sounds like a much better way IMO.  Idaho timber gets railed in on the spur at nichols street in henderson NC.   Its probably a lot cheaper to get a few moffet trucks and a warehouse building and just be a volume buyer who supplies himself and the other builders.  
Strap only, no tarp lumber is the cheapest open deck freight to have moved. It may seem high when you are paying the bill but as the driver i can tell you few loads paid less than coming out of there.
Yea thats a great idea but I wasn't sure it could save much money...Any idea what this would trade at? Or how to find out? I agee this would be a way easier scenario
I also thought just buying green and planing internally could work, I just have no idea on pricing
It seems like large lumber brokers like weston forest don't provide much of a discount.

mike_belben

Become a lumber broker yourself then. Start calling the manufacturers direct.

 You could also spin off a freight brokerage pretty easily to get trucks to move your lumber, with just a one room office and desktop, a broker MC# and a bond.  Its a physically easy job.  Mostly shuffling paper, emailing and lots of short phonecalls with strangers trying to book the cheapest truck.  


The way trucking is i think youd need to be a load broker to get high volume moved.  If you arent a load broker then youre paying retail on trucks hauling the lumber you buy at a terminal. If you are a broker youre getting to buy deckspace on open market trucks sorta wholesale, that are in the zone where your loads are and want to move.   You post a load and the trucks call you.  You set the rate (within reason, and with fluctuation)

If you call a trucking company to move your lumber order, they set the rate.   


This scenario could give you a lot of access to lumber with almost zero invested in physical assets, and the means to make a commission on lumber you sell to others (lumber broker)and commission on transport of that lumber to others(freight broker).  The bulk of cost would be attorney setting up a protection structure or two, and govt filing fees for broker license.   A few young gals in a rented office could easily do this for you m-f.  I say young because its a computer literate, techy, texty sort of job on the freight broker side.  I got loads dispatched by all sorts of soccer moms with a 2nd cel phone.  The ability to speak spanish, russian or hindi are huge plus. 
Praise The Lord

stavebuyer

I think a rail siding would be critical if you lean toward stockpiling. Since you actually are a consumer of the product you also could actually utilize the lumber futures market for the purpose for which it was designed. You could be building the rest of the year with lumber you locked in last month at $500/mbf and not buy a stick more than you need today when the market is much above historical margins. 

We probably will see a "new normal pricing" post Covid inflation bumped base but don't be seduced with pre-covid production costs. What cost you $200 to do last year will be $300-400 this year. I will be shocked if the big players aren't back to sawing at margins that will leave you no incentive to join them before you could possibly get any mill built and operating.

I am familiar with a family-owned local supply house that supplies much of the local wholesale market by unloading railcars. They supply most of the regional independent wholesale market and do a significant volume. 

The other realistic option is to "saw small". Sawing for your own needs at a trailer load a day is a completely different equation. You could never trim the sawing costs to compete with the mega-mill but you could guarantee your own supply at reasonable cost without the price drama.

The mega mill doesn't buy little tracts and while they will outbid you on every available log in Feb., they will have every logger in the state shut off or on a starvation quota after 2 weeks of sunshine in May. Vertical integration could set you apart as the only builder that can guarantee to deliver on time and on budget and builds with better lumber. The "better" being within your control especially from stump to stud. Only uses slower growth short-leaf etc.

 

WDH

Random Lengths is a weekly publication that lists the price of structural lumber sold by the mega mills F.O.B mill.   That means freight on board and is the price loaded on a truck or rail car at the producing mill.  It does not include freight.  You can subscribe to it. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mike_belben

Quote from: stavebuyer on January 04, 2022, 03:57:04 AM
I think a rail siding would be critical if you lean toward stockpiling.
I didnt think of that but yeah if you wanna be seriously bigtime whether sawing or just distributing, a big flat lot on the trainline is probably the ticket.  I have seen full railcars of sawdust and chip and i think they go to make partical board and MDF at arauco down around all the brick plants in moncure. So if youre gonna become a serious mill with rail capacity look at railing your waste stream too.  


The rail runs right past the treater i already mentioned in stony point. A chainlink fence is all that separates. And its an old "backward" (by newfangled triangle standards) cheap kind of place full of fallow tobacco fields.  Maybe a great country location to consider setting up a sawmill. Right next to the treaters, right on the rail and with access to charlotte, chattanooga, knoxville, tricities, atlanta, roanoke and the triangle.  Im sure wages in stony point are cheap.  

In my travels i got the impression that the cheapest pine sawlogs youd find were down toward wadesboro and mt gilead region of the state. I dunno.

maybe you could buy logs off a rail siding too.  It takes one guy with a phone, porta potty, his pickup truck, a wheel loader and a scale stick to set up a concentration yard.  Theres one up here where two guys buy for two mills just sitting in their trucks all day.  2 wheel loaders and no porta potty actually.


QuoteI will be shocked if the big players aren't back to sawing at margins that will leave you no incentive to join them before you could possibly get any mill built and operating.


That is the flip side that worries me.  New equipment either requires not needing the money cuz you already have it, or borrowing and having stable markets without production stoppages in order to pay the note.  Looking over the past 30 years (the longest duration in singular financing) markets are anything but stable. 

 I expect a huge china provoked bust in forest products just like in iron products manufacturing and scrap iron.  Having lost it all a time or two, it would be hard for me to roll the dice.  Twice shy and all.
Hence the suggestion to broker stuff.  

Theres nothing to maintain.  Licenses and reputations dont wear out or depreciate.  Your broker business can be a very small investment that serves your building business.  If you dont do much brokering business this month its not gonna lay off a crew of skilled laborers you took years to find while a 50 or 150k monthly note goes in the red. So what if diane and carol have an easy week? Their morale will be up. There is no loan on them or the brokering equipment, set a salary and thats it, fixed cost to write off, paid for by what they save your construction side in material procurement.  


A broker has one or two workers sort of working the switchboard of all sorts of other peoples assets and crews, without much invested themselves.  Yes they may only get a small percent of commission on the transactions between producers, distributors, buyers and transporters... but if you measure the overhead dollars they invested to the dollars they make, im confident brokers are the ones doing the least to get the most.  With zoom you dont even need an office.  A back bedroom, laptop, license and a blue parrot headset.


If i end up crippled thats what ill do.
Praise The Lord

blyons11

Quote from: mike_belben on January 04, 2022, 09:58:15 AM
Quote from: stavebuyer on January 04, 2022, 03:57:04 AM
I think a rail siding would be critical if you lean toward stockpiling.
I didnt think of that but yeah if you wanna be seriously bigtime whether sawing or just distributing, a big flat lot on the trainline is probably the ticket.  I have seen full railcars of sawdust and chip and i think they go to make partical board and MDF at arauco down around all the brick plants in moncure. So if youre gonna become a serious mill with rail capacity look at railing your waste stream too.  


The rail runs right past the treater i already mentioned in stony point. A chainlink fence is all that separates. And its an old "backward" (by newfangled triangle standards) cheap kind of place full of fallow tobacco fields.  Maybe a great country location to consider setting up a sawmill. Right next to the treaters, right on the rail and with access to charlotte, chattanooga, knoxville, tricities, atlanta, roanoke and the triangle.  Im sure wages in stony point are cheap.  

In my travels i got the impression that the cheapest pine sawlogs youd find were down toward wadesboro and mt gilead region of the state. I dunno.

maybe you could buy logs off a rail siding too.  It takes one guy with a phone, porta potty, his pickup truck, a wheel loader and a scale stick to set up a concentration yard.  Theres one up here where two guys buy for two mills just sitting in their trucks all day.  2 wheel loaders and no porta potty actually.


QuoteI will be shocked if the big players aren't back to sawing at margins that will leave you no incentive to join them before you could possibly get any mill built and operating.


That is the flip side that worries me.  New equipment either requires not needing the money cuz you already have it, or borrowing and having stable markets without production stoppages in order to pay the note.  Looking over the past 30 years (the longest duration in singular financing) markets are anything but stable.

I expect a huge china provoked bust in forest products just like in iron products manufacturing and scrap iron.  Having lost it all a time or two, it would be hard for me to roll the dice.  Twice shy and all.
Hence the suggestion to broker stuff.  

Theres nothing to maintain.  Licenses and reputations dont wear out or depreciate.  Your broker business can be a very small investment that serves your building business.  If you dont do much brokering business this month its not gonna lay off a crew of skilled laborers you took years to find while a 50 or 150k monthly note goes in the red. So what if diane and carol have an easy week? Their morale will be up. There is no loan on them or the brokering equipment, set a salary and thats it, fixed cost to write off, paid for by what they save your construction side in material procurement.  


A broker has one or two workers sort of working the switchboard of all sorts of other peoples assets and crews, without much invested themselves.  Yes they may only get a small percent of commission on the transactions between producers, distributors, buyers and transporters... but if you measure the overhead dollars they invested to the dollars they make, im confident brokers are the ones doing the least to get the most.  With zoom you dont even need an office.  A back bedroom, laptop, license and a blue parrot headset.


If i end up crippled thats what ill do.
Happy to pay for consultation if you have time to chat
At the end of the day, really just trying to control my own product and create something that can be replicated

Ed_K

 I haven't started to view all the comments, but the very first thing I saw was an uncomfortable ride for an 8 hr shift.
Ed K

mike_belben

I dont want your money, give it to someone you see with kids that look hungry. 

I sent you a PM, happy to try n help if i can. 
Praise The Lord

fluidpowerpro

Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere? 
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

SawyerTed

Quote from: fluidpowerpro on January 04, 2022, 11:38:51 PM
Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere?
The "M" is actually the Roman Numeral for 1000 rather than an abbreviation for Million.  It is a holdover from years gone by.  

Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

stavebuyer

Quote from: SawyerTed on January 05, 2022, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on January 04, 2022, 11:38:51 PM
Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere?
The "M" is actually the Roman Numeral for 1000 rather than an abbreviation for Million.  It is a holdover from years gone by.  
25,000 -50,000 "thousands" is technically 25-50 million feet; but everyone understood the implied production level.

SawyerTed

I see the error in my haste to reply so early in the morning.  :-[
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Machinebuilder

Quote from: SawyerTed on January 05, 2022, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on January 04, 2022, 11:38:51 PM
Isn't 25,000 to 50,000 Mbf per day actually 25,000,000 to 50,000,000 bf per day? Does such a mill exist anywhere?
The "M" is actually the Roman Numeral for 1000 rather than an abbreviation for Million.  It is a holdover from years gone by.  
That confused me for a while. At least now I know why.
I am used to engineering/scientific notation,
K (kilo) = 1,000
M (mega) = 1,000,000

Dave, Woodmizer LT15, Husqvarna 460 and Stihl 180, Bobcat 751, David Brown 770, New Holland TN60A

wkf94025

As a noob who is nearing the 1 year anniversary of his first mill (Lucas 7-23), and has gone increasingly "vertically integrated" milling his own Doug Fir, Redwood, white oak, black walnut and possibly red oak, I am FASCINATED by this thread, and hope the OP keeps us posted with what he decides to do, and how it turns out.  (Note this is my first post on this forum.)  I've dropped a quarter million in capex the last year between mill, skidsteer, Airstream office, wood shop power tools, container village, electrical infrastructure, F350, trailer, a pair of solar kilns (5,000mbf capacity total) plus 3 guys costing $8k/week helping build out my operation, mill, plane, sticker, stack, band, dry, etc.  Though 2/3's of that capex is financed at ~3%.  For what purpose?  To supply my own KD Doug Fir timberframe, clear heart redwood siding and decking, oak flooring, walnut cabinetry, live edge furniture, etc., for rebuilding a 440sf shop lost in Aug 2020 wildfire, and a new ADU (cottage) of ~1,200sf.  It'll be gorgeous, and it's already been a TON of fun, and 100% bonus depreciation means the $250k spent is really $125k after tax, assuming these are lifetime assets, which I believe they are.  The common thread?  My fascination with vertical integration, much like the OP.  Quality control, cherry picking best logs, best slabs, best boards, etc., and sell the rest when/where I can.  Though I have a nearly-free source of logs, but only because I'm a very small operation with very limited end product needs.  Through relationships and luck, I have 30mbf of quality Doug Fir logs at 5 cents/bf delivered, 20mbf of quality redwood logs at $1/bf delivered, white oak free, black walnut 3mbf at 20 cents/bf.  Is that luck and cost basis scalable?  Likely not.  Do I think I have the foundation for a profitable hobby / retirement?   Perhaps.  Good news is almost all the equipment I've bought is highly re-marketable due to backlogs, supply chain issues and inflation, so there is no chance I'll lose my butt on this addiction.  Which is exactly what it is.
Lucas 7-23 swing arm mill, DIY solar kilns (5k BF), Skidsteer T76 w/ log grapple, F350 Powerstroke CCSB 4x4, Big Tex 14LP and Diamond C LPX20 trailers, Stihl saws, Minimax CU300, various Powermatic, Laguna, Oneida, DeWalt, etc.  Focused on Doug Fir, Redwood, white and red oak, Claro walnut.

moodnacreek


Cruiser_79

Interesting thread! That Weyerhaeuser mill is absolutely amazing to watch. How on earth is it possible to own/manage almost 30 millions of acres and do everthing from planting trees to selling dryed lumber??  ???
Imagine how many mechanics they need at one mill to maintain all those board conveyors etc  :D 

The wravor that the topic starter showed is quite impressive, but like some other people said the production won't be what they say.  The Mebor I own has a production mentioned of 20 m3 per 8hr shift or so, but I would be very happy if I ever get to 10 m3 a day without problems  :D It's not the mill, but the entire handling of logs, boards, bark, sawdust, flints, beams, sawbands sharpeners etc . To save costs it could be an option to start with all the automation of log sorting, conveyors, board lifters, stacking devices, kilns etc., and if everything works scale up with your mill in the end. My situation is not even close to a professional operation, but I try to do it step by step and make sure the hardware of every step is capable for scaling up production. Hopefully I will ever end up with a reasonable 'production line'....

I believe that it would be cheaper to just purchase the lumber at the Weyerhaeuser style companies, and try to get as much discount as possible because you need some serious volumes. But you will always be dependent of them. I can notice that the quality of the lumber I buy for some construction is worse than before the covid. Maybe because the demand and prices are higher.  It would be great if you can run your own mill and aren't (or maybe partly dependent) of lumber suppliers, and can obtain a high quality for prices that you know in advance. Personally I don't think it's only price that matters. Independancy and loving your job is worth a lot as well...

wkf94025

Quote from: Cruiser_79 on January 09, 2022, 02:32:14 PMIt would be great if you can run your own mill and aren't (or maybe partly dependent) of lumber suppliers, and can obtain a high quality for prices that you know in advance. Personally I don't think it's only price that matters. Independency and loving your job is worth a lot as well...
Well said.  That's why I own a mill and the supporting toys.  Fun.  Quality.  Economics.  
Lucas 7-23 swing arm mill, DIY solar kilns (5k BF), Skidsteer T76 w/ log grapple, F350 Powerstroke CCSB 4x4, Big Tex 14LP and Diamond C LPX20 trailers, Stihl saws, Minimax CU300, various Powermatic, Laguna, Oneida, DeWalt, etc.  Focused on Doug Fir, Redwood, white and red oak, Claro walnut.

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