Battle with the County and my Circle Mill

landscraper · September 27, 2014, 11:56:45 AM

I'd put the wheels on, path of least resistance.......but, one thing I'd add is that Virginia Senate Bill SB51/House Bill HB268 (which is the most recent strengthening of the farmer rights in Virginia, and was adopted this year) has some language that may have some benefit to you if the neighbor/complainant doesn't go away after you make your mill portable.

Code of Virginia Section 15.2-2288.5-B-5 says that among the things that counties etc. may NOT prohibit is "Other activities or events that are usual and customary at Virginia agricultural operations". Awfully broad. I would assert to them that the intermittent operation of a small scale sawmill is indeed usual and customary on a farm. Many small portable sawmills such as Frick and Belsaw and American were marketed and sold to farmers. Woodmizer actively advertises to farmers as we speak. Heck, the Waltons were farmers and had a sawmill. Farm building lumber, posts, fencing material etc. are some of the core outputs of small sawmills. Section B does not reference the zoning of the agricultural operation, but neither does it contraindicate the zoning classification of your county. So, if you are carrying out agricultural operations (including the sawing) on land not zoned by your county for agriculture, your dilemma might not be whether you can saw wood, but rather whether you can do anything other than the listed by-right uses for your zoning type. However, if you are zoned agricultural and can successfully argue the "usual and customary" angle I think you could convince a zoning administrator that the county level ordinance is in violation of state ordinance.

Good luck

redprospector · September 27, 2014, 04:53:56 PM

Quote from: Ianab on September 27, 2014, 04:19:57 AM
Pick your battles....

Or you could stand on a set of principals, and then I guess the battles will choose you. If I go down fighting, at least I've gone down standing for something other than taking the course of the least resistance, and surrendering my God given rights to come into compliance with the way someone else wants me to live.
I'm sorry for all who are willing to surrender their rights in this great country.

That's all I have to say about this.

SLawyer Dave · September 27, 2014, 06:11:38 PM

Quote from: Southside logger on September 27, 2014, 03:00:25 AM
By law the deputy would have had to leave you with a copy of the search warrant and an "inventory" of any items seized. Even if there were none taken. If he was BS ing you about having a warrant then anything he and the code enforcement guy saw are "fruit of the poisonous tree" and can not be used against you as consent must be "voluntary and free of coeersion",

Unfortunately, both state and federal courts have pretty much completely over-turned these "time honored" views of the 4th Amendment. Under current jurisprudence, it is perfectly fine for law enforcement to LIE to you. They can threaten, coerce, stall, harass, and LIE.....and if you finally give them "permission" to search, enter your land/house, etc., the courts will find that the protection of the 4th Amendment does not apply because you waived such by agreeing to the search.

Generally if they actually exercise any actual "force", then the 4th Amendment will still apply. If however, all they do is threaten and lie about what is going to happen to you if you don't "cooperate", then if you choose to cooperate, you lose almost all Constitutional protections.

I sit part time as a traffic commissioner. A week ago, I had a gentlemen appear for his arraignment and described a traffic stop where in he was "pressured" to agree to a vehicle search. He did so. They found several crushed beer cans on his passenger floor board. They then did a sobriety (breathalyzer) test, and he blew a 0.0. Still, the officer cited him for having an "open container" in the vehicle. I set the matter for trial, even though the defendant was willing to plead "no contest", because if the facts he related to me are "accurate", then I have a real problem with an officer citing someone for picking up discarded beer cans, (if they have no evidence of anything else). He obviously wasn't drinking out of the cans, and he said they didn't collect any of them as evidence. So I surely wonder how the officer deduced that his story of picking them up for their recycle value, and to clean the roadside wasn't true.

Further, if they guy agrees to a vehicle search, and you don't find anything showing a 'current' issue, then why not show some discretion. At worst this guy should have been given a warning, (put any cans you pick up in a bag and tie it closed so that they are not "reasonably" available to you). Alas, many law enforcement, (especially amongst the younger officers), don't understand that simply being able to quote a law violation makes a ticket or other action proper. Strict adherence to laws, without discretion, leads to Tyranny, not Justice. That is why law enforcement officers have to take an oath, (very similar to mine), that requires them to enforce the law with discretion, to maintain the ends of Justice.

When faced with law enforcement orders, threats, etc., we each have to make a decision on how we choose to respond. I have a TON of respect for law enforcement as a whole. It is a very difficult job. However, just like in every profession, there are good guys, and less there so. So know your rights, and use your head.

Southside · September 30, 2014, 02:31:56 PM

Dave,

I could go on for quite a long time here, but from what you have said I believe that it is necessary for citizens to be educated and exercise their rights. I was with three or four guys from my section on a camping outing one time when a LEO tried to rail-road us in a hard way, he had no idea we were all Troopers. He demanded to search my truck and went ballistic when he found my .45, called over his C.O., and was literally jumping up and down and yelling. The C.O. walked over to me and asked if that was my weapon and if it was loaded, to which I replied yes, he then asked if they would find anything else in my truck, I told him my ID was about 2 inches from my .45, you should have seen the Oh 6!@#%^&* look on both of their faces when they realized who we were, and the fact that we were even in our patrol troop - even as a civilian that weapon was 100% legal the way it was. What would have happened to Joe Q citizen in that case? I suspect things would have been very different. The pendulum of justice swings both ways and needs to return to the Constitution in my humble opinion.

I had a judge one time ask me why I thought it was OK to search under a "prima facia" law that was "on the books", to which I replied that Title 12 allowed such searches - he then informed me that the Constitution does not allow it - took a bit to sink in but it eventually did. I agree most LEO's want to do the right thing and work honorably, but have to wonder just where the administration of a lot of agencies is taking them.

sealark37 · September 30, 2014, 03:54:18 PM

The old sawyer that sold his portable mill to me solved the "portable" question by mounting his power unit on an old truck axle. The tires never held air, but provided a good base for the old UD-14. He said that the wheels silenced the zoning inspector who came to shut him down, even though the mill never moved in many years. Regards, Clark

gimpy · October 02, 2014, 07:02:23 PM

I would never give consent to a search. But I won't necessarily prevent it from happening. That is why I have a good attorney. Court is where any "evidence" and illegal procedures will be dealt with.

I live in an open carry rural state. My wife and I both have concealed carry permits. When my wife and I are on our farm, we open carry and anyone on our property without an invite is confronted with our weapons in hand. We are 45 miles out of town. Prior friendly neighbors are always welcome without threat.

I have also met with a few of the state patrol in the area and they have been invited to our place anytime they need a place to pee or need a refreshment or a cool place to sit for a bit. I don't have a problem with LEO. In fact, they are more likely to need my help than me needing theirs. I'll be there. With budget constraints, I have offered to pick-up any dead wildlife hit by vehicles along the highway to add to my compost pile. I'm closer and there's no cost to help.

But if I had a problem with any uninvited county employee/inspector, they'd have to make a specific appointment for any return visit and I would advise them to bring an LEO with them for both of our safety and to document any possible problems. My gate is never left open and it is posted.

I find few city and/or county employees that fully understand the written laws and I'm good at researching and understanding them myself.

But that's just me. I got out of heavily populated areas for this very reason.

qbilder · October 03, 2014, 10:46:50 AM

I think it's time for you to get a chain saw mill with twin 120+cc saws, muffler modded of course. Run that for a few hours & your neighbors will be begging for you to use the Frick instead. CSM is as portable as can be. Might want to look into raising a few hogs, too, with the pen right on the property line.

mesquite buckeye · October 03, 2014, 11:28:20 AM

Hogs are stinky. ;D

My dad said they smelled like money to him. ;D 8) 8) 8)

Brad_bb · October 03, 2014, 01:21:50 PM

Ianab, just under two years ago we got a bunch of "our" people elected to our county board. They just voted that Satellite imagery/google earth can no longer be used by the county to look for code violations or to be used as evidence. Just like you cannot walk into somebody's house or fenced in back yard, they're considering it an invasion of privacy, a warrant-less search. And that was with an evenly split Repub/Dem board. Chalk one up for freedom!

03westernstar, If you've got one of those crabby neighbors, this probably won't be the end of it. They may look for redress, an alternative through the county officials. All I can say is that you try to be as respectful of your neighbors whenever possible. I think you should have a right to run your mill on weekends, but on the other hand, if they have to listen to it, it shouldn't be every weekend, or all day. Can you mill during the week at all to reduce your weekend milling? I just got a band mill, and I'm running it inside my building. I think it does keep the noise down, though that's not a big problem for my area. It also keeps it more secure and allows me to use it when it's raining. ;D

delvis · October 03, 2014, 07:38:46 PM

Westernstar, I know it isn't easy to pack up and move away but you're too young to have to spend a lifetime dealing with that kind of bureaucracy. Move to a more business friendly place where people tend to mind their own business!

Solomon · October 03, 2014, 11:29:54 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on September 26, 2014, 05:09:21 AM
At least you can have one. I had a guy come here from Kittery,ME,if I remember right, and he can not have one at all. The town banned all sawmills years ago. He said there was a guy that had a business with a circular mill. Slabs and lumber everywhere. Town did not like the way that looked. When he died,the town said no saw mills.

Did you ask to see the warrant???????? The city I live in tried that foolishness with me , However, my mill is a portable band mill with a permanent licence plate on it so its a registered vehicle. I can park it on the street if I want to and told the man so. They backed off and I never heard from them again.

The Fourth Amendment States; "The right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, shall not be violated, and, no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation , and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized".

If you did not actually see the warrant, I seriously doupt he actually had one. A good attorney would have a party with that in the court room. If he did have one , It was not legally issued. City and county ordanince's have to mirror and not conflict with state law in all fifty states. Talk to your attorney, you have a good law suit.

Solomon · October 03, 2014, 11:33:33 PM

Quote from: delvis on October 03, 2014, 07:38:46 PM
Westernstar, I know it isn't easy to pack up and move away but you're too young to have to spend a lifetime dealing with that kind of bureaucracy. Move to a more business friendly place where people tend to mind their own business!

That's good advise !!!!! smiley_inspector

Dave Shepard · October 04, 2014, 09:45:27 AM

He's already started he has a copy of the warrant.

Solomon · October 05, 2014, 12:53:07 PM

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 04, 2014, 09:45:27 AM
He's already started he has a copy of the warrant.

I would have to challenge that warrant in state or Federal Court.
As long as its out of sight, and it appears you have it on wheels now, simply possessing a mill on your property does not constitute cause for the a magistrate or even a Judge to issue such a search warrant and most certianly not for private property. I'm assuming you own the property ????

Solomon · October 05, 2014, 12:55:35 PM

And has he shown you the warrant? And you are entitled to a copy of the warrant. Did you receive a copy ??!

03westernstar · October 05, 2014, 10:21:32 PM

Quote from: Solomon on October 05, 2014, 12:55:35 PM
And has he shown you the warrant? And you are entitled to a copy of the warrant. Did you receive a copy ??!

Yes i do have a copy of the warrent

5quarter · October 06, 2014, 01:28:09 AM

Westernstar...I'm glad you will soon be "legal" and back to sawing. It's perfectly understandable that most folks find it much easier and simpler to just comply with whatever regulation or ordinance they happen to be in violation of at the time. it is much harder to contest these things in terms of Money, time and added stress. But at what point do you say enough already? Perhaps next year they pass a decibel ordinance and you have upgrade the muffler. Then a clean air regulation is passed that says you must capture and contain 95% of your sawdust. Then another ordinance comes along stating that sawmills, for reasons of safety, can only operate in a secure location, such as within a fenced perimeter or inside a building. At some point, you have to draw a line in the sawdust. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you'll be back to sawing, but I'm also frustrated whenever I hear about a "Public official" once again encroaching on our civil liberties. now where's that little green elf with the snowball?

Aha!

VT_Forestry · October 06, 2014, 07:00:53 AM

I've looked all over the code for Caroline County and can't find a single reference to anything about sawmill operations. Does the warrant make a reference to the code you are supposedly violating?

If the noise is the issue, they need to come out and measure it at the property line while the mill is running...different zoning is allowed different levels of constant noise from a stationary source. Rural is 55dB, residential is 60dB, but all of that is exempt for forestry and agriculture. I'm curious to how this shakes out, I'm not a big fan of counties flexing their muscles :