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General Forestry => General Board => Topic started by: Jeff on May 06, 2021, 01:41:40 PM

Title: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 06, 2021, 01:41:40 PM
But I need some advice and recommendations. I have been fine with no water in the cabin for over two decades, but the powers that be now say we must have a shower.  This bathroom is only 5' by 5.5 feet. I'm thinking a 34 by 34 corner with curved from or neo angle front will fit okay, but what do I want for hot water?  There will be the shower and sink, and a sink in the kitchen. Thats it.  I have a near empty panel box, only a handful of circuits. An electric on demand is easy to install, as I put one in the polebarn, but it was a returned item on the discount shelf for 100 bucks. It worls good out there, but 2 small I would think for the cabin.  


Any heater recommends?   The shower has to be a kit as Pete built the door ad 24" wide.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: K-Guy on May 06, 2021, 03:18:35 PM

My wife and I rented a cabin with the on demand hot water, it impressed me with how well it worked for the shower. If you aren't heating it year round make sure you can drain the lines out good.

ps. I guess a tin can with holes punched in it is out of the question?  ;D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 06, 2021, 03:23:28 PM
Ive taken red solo cup showers up there for years and was happy. Now I am a co owner with 2 females. 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: OntarioAl on May 06, 2021, 03:34:33 PM
Jeff
Its not going to be cheap but you can"t beat a propane on demand.
Unlimited hot water female relatives should be very happy
Cheers
Al
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: red on May 06, 2021, 04:25:40 PM
www.joolca.com makes portable hot water heaters for camping 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: gspren on May 06, 2021, 05:01:49 PM
  If you can find one salvaged from an RV camping trailer they are usually about 7-10 gallon and run on 120v electric or propane and are easy to drain.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Wudman on May 06, 2021, 05:59:55 PM
My travel trailer had a 6 gallon propane / electric.  You did not take a long hot shower.....like less than 5 minutes.  When it gave up the exact replacement was in the $700 range......too rich for my blood.  I opted for a camping shower heater to replace it.  It is propane with a D size battery for ignition.  It supplies unlimited hot water.  I even plumbed it into the house during the major ice storm we had a few months back.  An on demand electric water heater will need a 100 amp circuit.  A residential on demand propane heater will have a nice price tag.  I went the cheapest route I could.

Wud
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Don P on May 06, 2021, 06:29:33 PM
If you go with an on demand do some research, some can be difficult to completely drain all the water from the passages which can lead to irreparable freeze damage.

I ran into the same short shower problem in the motorhome. I wasn't politely glowing at the end of the workday. Since we were always on jobsites with power available I just got a small residential tank heater. Then set everything up to drain down easily.

You've got a sawmill, bump out the bath and really be a hero? (Dad just gave me the same lecture that its time to do that on the house here)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: snobdds on May 06, 2021, 07:03:22 PM
I put a Marey 3.1 gallon/minute, propane, battery ignition hot water on demand unit in my cabin.  I am not a plumber either, but I consulted a master plumber.  I told him I needed to be able to blow it out easily. He drew this out for me on how to plumb it.  I just used pex.  

I just hook our well feed to the cold side with a garden hose fitting and it feeds the kitchen sink, water heater, bathroom sink and shower.  The hot water comes down from the hot water heater and supplies the same fixtures.  The drain is right next to the cold water feed.  Make sure to put a bypass in right under the hot water heater to isolate it and allow for blowing out.

I now just open all the fixtures and close off the hot water heater.  I have a little adaptor that accepts a air hose that screws onto the cold water input.  All the water is blown out the fixtures and any water in the line comes out the hot side.  The hot water heater has a drain that you unscrew and it drains out.  I lower the air compressor to 30psi and open up the bypass and blow out the heater.  It takes 3 minutes tops.  

Here is a little diagram.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: snobdds on May 06, 2021, 07:05:09 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55948/20210506_165523.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620341745)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Old Greenhorn on May 06, 2021, 07:43:56 PM
Jeff, I am a little confused. What do you have for a water supply? A well? powered by electric? Or is there another source? Are there any water fixtures in the cabin now?
 What would be your thoughts on a wood fired water heater outside such as a stove with a coil or some such arrangement? I suppose solar hot water is too pricey, unless you rig something up as a home brew.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: maple flats on May 06, 2021, 08:21:12 PM
Jeff, In my sugarhouse I use a tankless water heater that heats up to 3 gpm at any temperature you want up to about 105, if you throttle it down on GPM, it gets even hotter. The one I use is an import. I'll give you a link, you can delete the link if you want, after you check it out.
Happybuy Tankless Water Heater Propane 12L Propane Water Heater 3.2GPM 24 KW Propane Tankless WaterHeater Stainless Steel on Demand Water Heater Propane Fit for Home Outdoor RV Use - - Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Happybuy-Tankless-Propane-WaterHeater-Stainless/dp/B08HZ3D9MW/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=Tankless+Water+Heater+Propane&qid=1620346178&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyT1dESkRRUEs3MlNTJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjIwODQxMUI5NkJQTlpLUks2SyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzcwOTk0WUtVMjQ2R0VEMzhMJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==)
Mine is very much like this, every time I search for them I find different ones.They all seem to be made in China, but they do work. I've found if you set it up feeding cold water in the bottom and hot out that way (connections are all on the bottom, it's super easy to drain it so freezing won't be a problem. In my sugarhouse I use a small diaphragm pump, mine is 115V, but there are lots of 12V ones, (used in RV's). I just hook the pump to a clean water source, turn the pump on and Hot water. When done, (my sugarhouse is not heated) I just drain the cold in line, the hot out and it's ready to take the cold. It is propane fired, not intended for indoors, but if you vent it you will be fine. In the sugarhouse I just open the cupola and mine is set up mounted on the wall directly over the sink.
The pump I use I got from Northern Equipment, but those little pumps are available in many places. They come with a shower hose and spray wand.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on May 06, 2021, 08:55:50 PM
I chose to go this route:  LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=47709.msg1765759#msg1765759)

Get the 13kw model.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Mooseherder on May 06, 2021, 09:40:38 PM
We have a 20 gallon hot water tank that runs on 110 at the cabin.
Works good.  Lowes carries them.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: scsmith42 on May 06, 2021, 10:27:16 PM
Jeff, I would stay away from electric on demand. Go with either a propane tankless or an standard electric water heater.

Camper sized units are probably not going to be a big hit with your cabin partners....
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Ed_K on May 07, 2021, 07:08:00 AM
 I have an on demand propane/elec hot water heater $2800. :o and hate it. The shower goes hot to cold an back to hot every time the well pump cycles. I have it set at 124į just to get hot water to the kitchen sink. It takes 30 to 45 seconds to just get warm water to any of the faucets  >:(.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: aigheadish on May 07, 2021, 07:48:52 AM
I'm going to follow along with this topic. My wife has wanted an outdoor shower forever and we have a spot in a patch of bamboo, next to the garage, that would make for a perfect shower. I'm trying to decide if I want to dig through concrete and run a line from my basement under the garage floor and outside, or get a small water heater and only have to punch a hole through a wall and dig through dirt to run a line and hang the heater in the garage... It seems to make sense, in my world, to dig through concrete so I don't need to worry about another heater but we'll see. 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 07, 2021, 07:49:46 AM
We have a well, with a well house about 40 feet from the cabin. It has never been piped in.  My plan is NOT to make this a 4 season water supply. My reasons for wanting to go electric tankless are the same as magicmans. Propane is much more expensive in the u.p. and it may get a lot worse.  I am also limited on space. The cabin is only 20 by 30, although there is an upstairs that is never utilized due to access. A pull down ladder that nobody likes going up.  There should have been stairs, but there isnt.

What I really need is a Forestry Forum construction party with a real carpenter! Tammy's idea is to eliminate our bedroom and make it a stair/utility room and put our roo. Upstairs. Tammy only gets up once a night. In the morning. ME? This idea requires more plumbing.

We came home yesterday after 3 days of work. I tore the little bathtub out to make room for a 32" durastall shower.  I was going to start trenching from the well, but when I got up there, out of the blue I develop severe nerve pain in a back molar. I now have not eaten or drank anything but temped water for 3 days. Emergency dentist visits dont exist in our governor's state. I finally get in noon today.  Im a wreck.  So  no trench. Im going to bury scedualed 80 pvc and run my water line through 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: samandothers on May 07, 2021, 10:18:14 AM
Hope you get relief from the tooth.  

The changes sure sound like they will improve your comfort and usability of the cabin.

Good luck on both accounts!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 07, 2021, 10:32:12 AM
And as you can see im not right. I was trying to post this in my plummer topic. Ill try to fix. Come on noon.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on May 07, 2021, 10:52:55 AM
Yup I was wondering about it and realized that you posted to the link that I shared.  smiley_dizzy
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: samandothers on May 07, 2021, 11:51:45 AM
I saw the post in MM's thread before seeing this one.

I would not rule out the RV water heater and a diaphragm pump.  We have stayed in a camper for 15 or so years when we visit our land in Va.  It has a LP/electric water heater and a 12V pump.  I haul water from a spring and we use a generator for power.  The showering is a different process than we use at home.   We will use the LP or electric if the generator is running to heat the water.  We will wet down turn off water, then soap up and then rinse.  By not running water the whole time we don't run out of hot water.  

In winter when we leave we drain the water heater, bypass it, drain the water lines and pump in RV antifreeze.  This works for us. We do avoid going there if the temps will get below 27 or 28 F as the camper water line near freshwater tank will freeze and then I get under it with a hair dryer to thaw.  Most of the time we don't go to the property if that is a possibility.  However, we are building at the site now and I do look forward to not having to haul water, run generator, drain lines, pump antifreeze and can visit when below 27 F!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: maple flats on May 07, 2021, 12:12:23 PM
A little tankless like I referenced is electronic (2 D cell batteries) ignition. I've been on the same set of alkaline batteries for 2 years. I have several things in the sugarhouse on propane, so I really have no idea how much it uses for hot water. In my sugarhouse I have a wall furnace just to heat 1 tiny storage room (under 20SF), a weed burner torch to light the evaporator, a 2'x6' finisher to heat syrup before I filter and bottle it and then the water heater. All of that runs about $140/year. It's all on a small bulk tank. The water heater would run a long time on just a 20# tank.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 07, 2021, 12:37:20 PM
I started off with heating my H/W with a wood boiler only but after 5 years I got tired of keeping a  small fire all year so I added a 110v 20 gal water heater on a sturdy shelf above my pressure tank. It added $50 per month on my power bill.

Because I was using a mixing valve for the wood boiler I was able to increase the W/H temperature to increase it's capacity and still have 120į water temp. Without the mixing valve it would not be great if hot water is needed often, as it is sometimes you have to wait a bit for another shower. A regular 40 gal electric would be better.

In the meantime at the camp (no  electricity) we have a camping solar water heater shower bag, the sun does not usually corporate so we just fill it Ĺ with cold water and Ĺ with hot water from the kettle on the stove.

Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 07, 2021, 12:47:39 PM
That is another reason for a lean towards electric on demand. We are there sporadically. Sometimes a month goes by and when we are there is is usually for a couple days, although gas prices and Tammy's retirement may allow longer visits now. (My record was a month bear hunting in 2010.) That means a tank heater either runs all the time, or you have to wait for it to heat once you get there. The tub that was in there worked well for red solo cup showers. Womenfolk dont like those.   Have a 5 gallon pail of well water in the tub, heat up a pot of hot water on the stove and pour it into make it shower temp. stand in the tub and use the solo cup to dip and bathe. 5 gallons will make two showers.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 07, 2021, 05:06:16 PM
  My parents camp in the Da UP had a 30 gallon propane tank type water.  Pilot light was lit when they got there.  Didn't take long to heat up, was shut off when they left, and easily drained for the season.  Water pressure for the place was supplied by a head tank in the garage rafters which was pumped full as needed using a generator to power the shallow well pump.  Other camps had head tanks in the reinforced cabin attics.  When real power came to the neighborhood they switched to an electric water heater and now have a deep well.  No pilot to light, just flipped the breaker to turn on and off.  Heats up fast.  Both were drained by running a hose out the door.  We've got an electric water heater at home and when we're gone for more than a couple days it gets shut off.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 07, 2021, 05:08:01 PM
You're going to bury your water line in PVC?  
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 07, 2021, 05:46:25 PM
Use PEX.  Buy a crimp tool.  Life is way simpler using PEX  ;) :)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: 21incher on May 07, 2021, 06:24:15 PM
If you go propane lock up the tanks. When I was young we had a cabin in the catskills and everything ran on propane even the lights. We had several  tankfulls of propane  stolen by the locals between our visits. Dad finally locked them in a shed so there would  be propane for the next visit. Propane prices around  here are up 30% in the last couple months and our supplier said its going  to continue  rising because of the cutbacks in refining gasoline which  most propane is a by product of. 
If you have enough  power electric is easy for anyone to figure out with just a switch. Isn't  the rule of cabins arrive clean, leave grungy  ;D.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 07, 2021, 06:52:33 PM
Our rule is if one person showers, every body showers.(Hey! Dont even think that!) :D The new shower is 32 by 32 seester leenda just picked it up at menards for $211 includes drain and valve.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 07, 2021, 06:55:48 PM
You're going to bury your water line in PVC?  
Yes, 1" PEX from the well to the cabin, then 1/2 to what ever. I have a hundred feet of red and a 100 of blue. Gotta get the one inch yet. I have to go under the cabin under the front porch. There is no sidewalk there and it is just the fill between piers. That is on a footing, but only about 18" as I remember. HEY! I got video from under there! Under the cabin! I'll upload it.
I was dreading going under there. No one had been under there in a decade. At least. I'd never been under there since the sub floor was down. Heck no. Then, a few years ago  I saw a big snake. Poisonous constricting Garter snake slither into what I thought at the time, a place into the crawl space.  NOT ME UN-UH!. I'm picturing the place with shed snake skins, and spiders dropping in on ya from the floor joists, rodent remains, WHO KNOWS, MAYBE SNAKES! 
First trip up, the video where Tammy and I tell about getting the cabin, Jeremy and I had brought bug bombs up and were "Going in" to find out what we were going to have to do to get water in. The only access is through a place between the piers, that before the screen porch, had one of those galvanized window well retainers. Probably the smallest one they made it seems, and this had a cover.  Now, you have to peel up the indoor outdoor carpet and screen from the screen porch, and remove some boards that make a hatch in the floor then you remove the cover from the window well, and somehow squeeze in.  So, Jeremy and I pulled up all that stuff and looked in. A NEW BARRIER I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT!
When the crypt was sealed, little did I know Pete had built another panel of 1/2" plywood that went into the window well, and screwed to the pier fill framing. Nice. Really. Good idea. POOR EXECUTION. Pete put it in with Philips head screws and then stripped the heads out. Absolutely no where to pry or anything, so we had to battle axe our way through it. We had the thing open. I'm waiting for who knows what to start spilling up out of there.
I promised the women folk I'd get them seasonal running water. So, I'm going in.

Gotta go find my pictures.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tom King on May 07, 2021, 07:11:20 PM
Careful crawling in those tight crawl spaces.  I spent some time under a 1928 church, crawling around like a snake.  When I came out, it was the first time I had ever had lower back trouble, and it took more than a week of doing nothing to get over it.   I don't do that any more.

The title of the thread reminded me of when I took the Plumbing License test in 1975.  I wasn't intending to get into any plumbing repair business, but wanted to know how to size pipes to go in the new houses I was building.

When we went in the test room, there was a sheet of paper, face down, on top of every desk.  We were told not to turn the paper over until the test began.

Once everyone was in place, and the time to start came, everyone turned the paper over.  It had on it.

1975 North Carolina Plumbing License Examination

What does every Plumber need to know?

1.


2.



Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 07, 2021, 07:12:40 PM
I'd go with black poly direct buried from the well to the cabin.  IMHO you're not going to gain anything burying PEX in PVC except added $$$ and time  :) :)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: trimguy on May 07, 2021, 07:37:05 PM
I purchased an ďEcosmart 27 ď for our cabin. I hope to get it in next trip but Iím not sure since somethings came up that I hadnít planned on and didnít get as much done this time as I had hoped. If I do , you are more than welcome to check it out. They make different sizes. I put this particular unit in a buddyís house about 2 years ago and heís says itís the best thing heís done to the house. Used by 4 people.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: mudfarmer on May 07, 2021, 07:51:54 PM
We used Marey on demand propane like mentioned previously for 11 years, D cell battery ignition and easy to drain. Except that one time we thought it would be ok, left home for a couple weeks and it had a leak from freezing. Soldered that shut and used it another 5 years before my solder fix leaked again(not good at it and not much room to work in there)

Just switched this winter to a different one, similar but has 110v ignition and exhaust fan I guess to actually be safer indoors where it is, and you can actually set the water temperature. The other style only gives a set temp rise, say 60* for example. So if your input water is 40F it comes out 100F, input water 60F comes out 120F. I canít believe that the wife let it go so long with having to adjust that stupid water heater! One of us in the shower yelling to the other to turn it up because the tank was stratified etc. Water comes from cistern tank so throughout the year can see some decent temp swings.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Don P on May 07, 2021, 08:05:41 PM
1975 North Carolina Plumbing License Examination
What does every Plumber need to know?
1.
2.
:D
1. Hot's on the left
2. Poop flows downhill
2b, if you're the helper, welcome to happy valley!
3. Never go to the truck emptyhanded after 3
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 07, 2021, 08:27:04 PM
I have always heard...

1. _ _ _ _ runs down hill.
2 Pay day is on Friday.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 07, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
includes drain and valve.


I had trouble with the drain that came with the shower that we installed in an apartment, after a few years it would not hold the drain pipe in and leaked so I replaced it with a different kind, sorry I can't remember the details but I think the first drain had a rubber ring to hold the pipe in. I mentioned it to a plumber friend and he said that he throws the original drains away and puts a "proper" one on when installing a new shower.

One would hate to crawl under there more than needed! :)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 07, 2021, 09:27:42 PM
Yea no kidding, I would have never squeezed in there a year and a half ago, and never would of got out. Its hard to get out now.

So, introducing a video made whilst under the influence of of an exposed nerve in a Molar. Enjoy!  And you can see what I found down there if you don't get distracted.

A VISIT TO........ THE CRYPT ;o) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/6_bXgfbOLfo)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: samandothers on May 07, 2021, 09:34:49 PM
If I was doing the crawling I would make at least 1 or 2 added trips because I forgot stuff needed while under there!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: 47sawdust on May 08, 2021, 06:33:17 AM
I don't envy you the crawl space space work. As mentioned, something is always forgotten.
A patient helper to feed you parts or tools is a big help.
My wife usually doesn't want to be around me after a crawl space session.

I take it that an addition to house the shower/mechanicals is not an option, or bringing the water in above the floor.

After viewing the crawl space video that doesn't look too bad at all.
Good prep work, good lighting,good help and being well rested and you will be fine.
Wish I was closer. As a crawl space vet,with many hash marks,I know what you are up against.
Slow and steady gets 'er done,
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tom King on May 08, 2021, 09:35:25 AM
From experience, another thing I can tell you about working in a crawlspace, is that you are about guaranteed to bump your head, and harder than you might think, even at a low speed crawl.

When there is not enough room for a hard hat, which there is not, a lot of times, I bought a plastic "skull cap" to wear in such places.  It's not as much cushion as a hard hat, but still a Lot better than nothing.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: LogPup on May 08, 2021, 01:37:32 PM
A hardhat to protect you from the floor nails.  Now that hurts!!!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tom King on May 08, 2021, 03:04:53 PM
Just remembered:  Mine is a "Base Coach Helmet".   Only cost a few dollars.  It's like a plastic baseball cap-lighter than a batters helmet.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 08, 2021, 04:26:53 PM
I gotta hard dense head, so, it might not add and benefit :D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Don P on May 08, 2021, 05:55:44 PM
Finally watched the video, heck that would qualify as an apartment in Tokyo. Mamma groundhog has 2 new kits under there helping us dig at work, many hands makes light work  :D.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 08, 2021, 07:10:20 PM
Yea! I was pleased. Unbelievably clean for as many critters up there.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 08, 2021, 07:22:50 PM
I'd go with black poly direct buried from the well to the cabin.  IMHO you're not going to gain anything burying PEX in PVC except added $$$ and time  :) :)
Greg, my thinking is since this is a 3 season cabin, and something gets screwed up and froze under ground i can replacdeit without redigging the trench. I have to dig this by hand and I know I cant get it that deep, 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 08, 2021, 09:06:03 PM
Make the pipe big enough to pull an electric wire through too if needed  ;) :) :)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Don P on May 08, 2021, 09:47:48 PM
Foam insulation on top of the pipe in the trench will buy you a little bit.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 08, 2021, 10:08:17 PM
A pipe inside a pipe is a good plan!

Our camp has a small well with a hand pump at the sink, the line is sloped back towards the well so in late fall I just disconnect the line at the elbow in the well and remove the vertical line with foot valve and the rest drains back to the well. It never seems to want to come apart at the elbow so I end up cutting it and replacing a short section, it would be easier if I used a different fitting at the elbow maybe a pitiless adaptor.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 09, 2021, 08:45:45 AM
This is the heater we are going with. Similar, but bigger than the one I have on the polebarn.  Ive decided to go with 3/4 direct buried pex as the supply line and bury the pvc too as a future conduit out to the well house. There is already power buried to it.   The 3/4 is way cheaper and brass fittings from 3/4 to half cheaper and easier to find.

One thing I didnt mention is that the only reasonI am burying the supply line is, because we have to drive over it. This is only going to be seasonal water because the cabin is in a lonely deepfreeze all winter. If we go up in the winter, there is an outhouse.

Atmor 29kW 5.4 GPM Electric Tankless Water Heater at Menardsģ (https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/water-heaters/electric-water-heaters/atmor-29kw-5-4-gpm-electric-tankless-water-heater/at-912-29tp/p-7720120060572264.htm)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 09, 2021, 12:35:10 PM
  With your water line project and trail project a mini excavator rental for a weekend would be pretty handy  ;)  Trench your water line in deep, place corduroy  in your mud holes and bail dirt from the sides to cover it :)  
  It's a three season place now but for the future :) :)  
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 09, 2021, 12:53:07 PM
There are no rental places close, i have a half ton truck. This is the east end of the u.p. i would have 4 hrs just in getting and returning anything, and as always there is the money issue.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Corley5 on May 09, 2021, 01:48:45 PM
  I've pulled one with my 1/2 ton from Petoskey and back.  Pick up one in the Soo Saturday afternoon and return it Monday morning when they open.  They aren't too bad $$$ wise to rent.
  I've been redoing things around here that if they'd have been done differently 40 years ago they wouldn't require it now.  That's my reasoning behind new projects.  Do it with a view to what may come.  One of my big peeves is when my Grandparents had a new 4" deep well put in during the  mid 80s it was put at the end of the lane where the old rod well, pit, pressure tank and stock tank are 200' feet from the house.  It should have been put in by the house so the pressure tank could have been in basement.  No sawdust covering the well pit lid to keep it from freezing.  The water lines were there to fill the stock tank next to the well house and no 200' foot run of buried wire to short out.  One of my summer projects this year is too install a new pressure tank in the basement, new 200' water line and wire to the well, plug the old well and fill in the pit.  There are numerous reasons this project needs to be done now.  If done 40 years ago...
  Anyway that's an example and kinda explains where I'm coming from on improvement projects  ;D ;) :) :)   
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: 21incher on May 09, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
Wow that's some  water heater. Never seen an appliance that used 3 seperate power inputs to obtain  the 120 amp @240 volt input. I thought  the NEC would  only allow one input per appliance for safety reasons.  
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on May 09, 2021, 10:20:15 PM
The 13kw that I installed is the largest water heater that uses only one 240v circuit.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 10, 2021, 09:33:42 AM
A couple comments .Black PVC in a roll has worked fine for pump  supply lines as far back as I can remember plus it's inexpensive . If you get freezing water or scald somebody in the shower when the pump cycles chances are you either have too small of a pressure tank or the tank is "water logged .Meaning the air bladder might have collapsed .
I'm not certain how point of use water heaters would work. If I installed one I'd go with 240 volt .The way my L shaped house is laid out the kitchen sink is the farthest point away from the water heater which is 40 gallon fast recovery. Takes a long time to get hot water .It's either that or a return loop with a recirc pump . Point of use in the long run probably is cheaper all things considered .
Now as far as winter storage. If you plan the plumbing in such a way as to have a drop below the water tank you could blow it out with compressed air then flood it with rv anti freeze most likely .If it will work on a travel trailer it will work on a cabin .
For hot water lines I've never used Pex at any time .Pvc is not a good hot water line but CPVC is .
As a side comment when I worked for a small plumbing concern in HS it was all copper lines and cast iron drains .Things have  changed a lot since the 1960's . ;)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: trimguy on May 10, 2021, 09:54:34 PM
@21incher (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24694) my understanding is that it is consecutive. 1 circuit comes on , if it doesnít meet demand , then next circuit also kicks in and same with the third. I havenít hooked it up yet so Iím not sure.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 10, 2021, 11:00:01 PM
Well, I'm commited now! The 20 gallon electric will have a cabinet built for it. The shower controls will mount beside the shower, which is pushed into the wall that is the back of a closet in the other room. I gained over 4 inches as that wall also had 1" cedar on it. You can still reach the latch on the window and open it, so its staying. The shower head will somehow mount above the stall. No additional holes in that stall, although it was designed for it.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210510_195827.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620701594)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210510_195844.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620701606)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210510_195955.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620701620)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210510_200017.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620701643)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Raider Bill on May 11, 2021, 08:00:44 AM
Can you mount the heater up high off the floor.?
Only 20 gallons you better have them watch a you tube on taking a navy shower.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 11, 2021, 08:39:02 AM
Why off the floor? 
 This is a compromise to get space. We were taking two showers with 2 gallons  of water in a pail with 2 gallons heated up and poured in setting in a tub and thendipping with a solocup.  This will be better  imsure
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 11, 2021, 08:45:55 AM
You can take a shower with about gallon and half of water . We did same when I was on the nuke subs .The frequency was about once every 7 days .Old habits die hard because even today it takes me about five minutes from the time I walk into the bathroom until I'm out .Must be okay because she never says I smell like a goat but she does mention I'm stubborn as a mule . :D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Walnut Beast on May 11, 2021, 01:04:45 PM
20 gal. will be fine. Some RVs have a 6 gal. water heater and two people can comfortably take showers 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 11, 2021, 01:12:19 PM
The squeezing two and frow has commenced, 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/VideoCapture_20210511-130852.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620753120)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: 21incher on May 11, 2021, 06:35:39 PM
Just pick up a low flow  shower head and you will never run out. You can get them down to 1 gpm that still give a good shower. Now is when your  weight  loss really pays off. Probably  would  have been a tight fit through  that hatch last year. 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: ljohnsaw on May 11, 2021, 08:19:17 PM
Why off the floor?
If you put it up as high as possible, then the area under is available for a vacuum or brooms.  Or maybe a linen closet?  If it is short enough, maybe mount it under the sink?

My sister had a 30gal. tank in her 1bd/1bath town house.  She wanted more space in her laundry closet so I pulled that out and put in a much smaller unit up on a shelf.  I can't remember if it was a 20 gallon or 16.  She is really happy with it. She now can store her vacuum in there instead of the front coat closet.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Don P on May 11, 2021, 08:24:58 PM
Never a bad idea to put a drain pan under one.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 11, 2021, 10:37:23 PM
Drain pan is to big, I got one, but I don't like it. Im plumbing an overflow into the crawlspace. There may or may not be a sink over top.  Holy crap I had to buy 50ft of 8-2 wire. It aint just lumber.

This was exit one today. I was in and out 3 times.

Squeezing out of the crawlspace. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/JaY3RGP4wb0)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 12, 2021, 06:54:35 AM
Speaking of electrical stuff .A 2 pole 60 amp  Square D  breaker set me back almost 25 bucks or about twice the normal price . >:( That was on the Geo-unit because it was tripping out at 18 amps .I have no idea why breakers go bad ,just happens sometimes .
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 12, 2021, 06:58:32 AM
Now that that tunnel rat action .Take it from me it doesn't get any better as you get older .Voice of experience here . ;)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: 47sawdust on May 12, 2021, 04:58:45 PM
It does my heart good to know there is such a brotherhood of crawl space vets.
I knew a home weatherization crew that had to cut one of their co-workers out with a sawzall.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Walnut Beast on May 12, 2021, 05:01:20 PM
Once you wear a good headlamp you will never use a flashlight 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tom King on May 12, 2021, 05:51:06 PM
I'm not sure of the legitimacy of this.  You look perfectly clean coming out of there. :)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 13, 2021, 07:21:12 AM
@Tom King (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=25437) check out the earlier video link from when I first went in there. It was not what i expected!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 13, 2021, 07:27:34 AM
I spent yesterday putting in the shower drain, tieing it in to the old tub drain hoping I could come over from the existing ptrap. Fail. I have to go back under remove all of it as the drain pipe coming up to the top of the floor needed to have a 4 inch onobstructed rise for the seal. It dont. Didnt know it needed that much until I was ready to install the seal. A whole evening of work wasted
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: aigheadish on May 13, 2021, 08:01:35 AM
Sounds like my projects Jeff, good luck!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tom King on May 13, 2021, 08:07:23 AM
Sounds typical for working in hard to get to places.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 13, 2021, 08:22:05 AM
As a teenager I spent many an hour with a folding gov issue entrenching tool under a crawl space .Fast forward to nearly  60 years old installing 12"  by 24"  square HVAC trunk lines  by myself in 26"  crawl space .All that was all hand bent and seamed .Took me the best part of  one summer . 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on May 13, 2021, 09:54:45 AM
Sorry that you are having some re-doo, but all forward steps seem to occasionally have some "not forward".

Your project will be a total success when the Two Ladies smile.  :)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 13, 2021, 11:11:56 PM
Got the drain sorted out then plumbed the shower. Jumped right into trench digging. Gravel stone and heavy sand/clay. Tammy helped and we got it dug, conduit and pex ran, and covered back up. Got to have a solo cup shower in the new stall.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210513_230404.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620961671)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/VideoCapture_20210513-222232.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620961766)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/VideoCapture_20210513-222731.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1620961864)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: thecfarm on May 14, 2021, 06:00:24 AM
At least you can dig a trench by hand. I had to dig for my OWB lines.  ::) About a foot was it for me. 
I suppose you are removing a rock with the tractor?
I had to put a brace in for my mail box. I hit a big rock that I needed the tractor for.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 14, 2021, 06:46:32 AM
Nope, only used the tractor with the trip bucket to push the dirt back in the hole.  Today is connect the pex day and hook up the water heater connections. I dunno if We'll be able to get hooked in today or not. So far thiis morning  i have multiple muscles rebelling by doing the twist
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Walnut Beast on May 14, 2021, 06:52:18 AM
What pex tool and rings do you have the clamp one or ratchet 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 14, 2021, 09:24:52 AM
Well, I think its both. The tool ratchets a stainless pinch clamp.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 14, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
I've been doing some excavating myself with a back hoe called "manual " operated by Al .Surprisingly I'm  not as stove up as I thought I'd be .However it's not finished yet .
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Walnut Beast on May 14, 2021, 01:16:15 PM
Well, I think its both. The tool ratchets a stainless pinch clamp.
Thatís the newer one I really like them. I have both.  The older one had a solid ring that you would just clamp 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tacotodd on May 14, 2021, 01:40:06 PM
@Al_Smith (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2054) I resemble that remark 😵
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on May 14, 2021, 08:35:31 PM
Okay a story .My great grandfather built a house in Universal Pa, a division  of Pittsburgh .In those days ,late20's  they only paid about a buck a day for laborers .Those guys pick and shoveled that rock by hand  .In his ledger his greatest  single expense was for beer for the crew digging the basement . :D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Don P on May 14, 2021, 09:35:28 PM
DanG, I shoulda held out for the bennies  :D

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/100_6661op.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621042483)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 16, 2021, 08:48:50 AM
I am still not a plummer!

The u.p. cabin. The "We get a shower" episode! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/gmQPcqfOANA)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 19, 2021, 10:40:57 PM
Im using the cedar I tore out to peice the bathroom back together. I cracked quite a few taking them out because Pete used ardox nails with some sort of resin on them. Argh! I was one board short of getting it back together, then found one under the porch left from some other project. I still have the waterheater enclosure to deal with. There was a cabinet from pete's shed at home we put in service.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210519_192848.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621478591)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210519_192451.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621478246)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210519_192552.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621478254)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210519_223003.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621477912)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210519_222944.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621477902)


Running out of dry lumber is an issue, but we can make more now. We hauled the mill up. 8)
An Old Sawyer and an Old Sawmill. Following the dream. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ePooc0OvNLc)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: aigheadish on May 20, 2021, 10:31:02 AM
Looks great Jeff!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: jb616 on May 20, 2021, 11:39:00 AM
Can't beat going across that bridge!!!  Going over the grates with a motorcycle is an interesting experience as well and have that trucker with the backhoe stop at my property too!! I almost broke my screen trying to swat those big skeeters.  :D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 20, 2021, 01:06:36 PM
When I cross that bridge, I feel the stress just drip out of me. 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Ricker on May 20, 2021, 05:15:18 PM
What's this bridge you guys are talking about? I remember a big bridge in the you tube video.  Just curious, as I am no fan of tall bridges or long ones.  I heard tell of a long bridge on the way to Florida from here that is like 20 something miles and it goes under water in a couple places.  No way I'm doing that one.  If I ever try to make it to Florida I guess I have to go to Alabama and take a left.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: jb616 on May 20, 2021, 06:09:58 PM
What's this bridge you guys are talking about? I remember a big bridge in the you tube video.  Just curious, as I am no fan of tall bridges or long ones.  I heard tell of a long bridge on the way to Florida from here that is like 20 something miles and it goes under water in a couple places.  No way I'm doing that one.  If I ever try to make it to Florida I guess I have to go to Alabama and take a left.
The Mackinac bridge that connects Michigan's upper and lower peninsulas. It is a 5 mile suspension bridge and truly a work of art. My dad told stories of back in the day when they took a car ferry across to go hunting. I believe it was built in the mid 50's. The "Yoop" is a different world from the lower, as soon as you cross it is all rock along the road. There are many beautiful waterfalls as well and areas that average over 20 feet, yup, feet of snow per winter.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on May 20, 2021, 07:12:52 PM
I heard tell of a long bridge on the way to Florida from here that is like 20 something miles and it goes under water in a couple places.
That should be the Chesapeake Bay Bridge & Tunnel.  It is Hwy 15, North of Norfolk, VA.  We enjoyed the experience just as we did the several times that we have crossed the Mackinac.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 20, 2021, 07:21:08 PM
Went to the Sault st. Marie restore. Found this old cabinet, and a cast iron sink with an end drain. All pine cabinet. No particle board. Also got 4 new axe handles with proper grain to rehang some axe heads I have accumulated. Total of 70 bucks.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_151908.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621552801)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_151917.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621552714)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_153127.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621552681)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_184955.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621552570)
 

Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: ljohnsaw on May 20, 2021, 09:35:54 PM
Nice find!  I notice there is no toe kick.  You might want to make one which will probably put the sink up at the right height as well.  Or are you gonna make the cabinet a little taller for the sink so you can preserve the drawers?
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on May 20, 2021, 10:32:25 PM
Got up this morning, brush hogged and mowed and chainsawed until 11 and never had any idea about a cabinet solution. That cabinet is not junk. It's some pretty nice wood. In fact Im offering the parts that I didn't use for trade. Im thinking $300  ;)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_213222.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621563840)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_213246.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621563850)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_213255.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621563867)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_195352.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621564005)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210520_195309.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621564025)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: thecfarm on May 21, 2021, 05:36:26 AM
I can add another, Do you see sawmills being towed on the road?  ;D

sawmill being towed (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=63550.0)
Enjoy your new Home!!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on June 05, 2021, 10:05:36 AM
4 more trips under the cabin, and the plumbing part of this job isin the books.  We now have a working sink. We found a $279 moen faucet at a yard sale for $10 that was marked parts. It had been replaced with a new one uner a lifetime warranty. Problem? Aerator threads were stripped.  SOLD! 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210604_173231.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622901869)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210604_173223.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622901879)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on June 05, 2021, 11:36:08 AM
Yup, looks like a 100% success to me.  thumbs-up
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2021, 07:25:11 AM
The last step was to cut a cabinet drawer down so it would clear the sink drain now in the way and perform a needed function. T.P. drawer.  No room really for a screw to the wall holder.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210605_162738.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622978681)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210605_162751.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622978587)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20210606_071632.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1622978573)
 
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on June 06, 2021, 07:38:10 AM
Yup, looks like a 100% success to me.
OK, Now it is a 100% success.   8)
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2021, 07:49:36 AM
No, 100%  was reached just a short time ago after coffee. Bahaha.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2021, 07:54:24 AM
I just noticed. The tp drawer is happy! It's smiling!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: doc henderson on June 06, 2021, 07:57:58 AM
you guys work well together.  nice to see the updating to make you old people comfortable.  :) It looks like a truly great place!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Magicman on June 06, 2021, 08:06:59 AM
So soon we will need a walking video tour of the Cabin.  ;D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2021, 08:08:33 AM
Will do!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Tacotodd on June 06, 2021, 12:52:59 PM
No job is done until the paperwork is finished 😆  smiley_blue_bounce
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: gspren on June 06, 2021, 10:05:46 PM
I can't tell how close the cabinet doors are to the toilet but in many RVs they put a wall type toilet paper holder on the inside of one of the doors, should be able to reach the door while seated to make it work. Looks good!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2021, 10:08:15 PM
I could demonstrate, but the drawer is very convenient.
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Al_Smith on June 07, 2021, 12:14:06 AM
I like that idea of the TP in a drawer .I have to keep my roll in a coffee can else Georgia's cats will tear it to ribbons .You can't teach a cat to do anything .
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: thecfarm on June 07, 2021, 05:57:02 AM
My wife's dog is like that too. Toilet paper and can't teach it nothing!!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: gspren on June 07, 2021, 10:48:32 AM
I could demonstrate, but the drawer is very convenient.
Personally I would rather not see you demonstrating the toilet paper, that may damage my eyes.  :D
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: aigheadish on June 08, 2021, 08:24:44 AM
I had a kid that would tear the TP to ribbons! Ha!

Looks good Jeff!
Title: Re: I'm not a plummer
Post by: Resonator on June 08, 2021, 03:58:33 PM
If you add a bookshelf, you could go by the book. :P  smiley_thumbsup