Hi all, I am looking at buying a Norwood HD38, and need advice on sizing a tractor to match.
I want to be able to slab siberian elm. A green Siberian Elm at 36" diameter and 10' long comes out to about 4000lbs. (Correct?)
I'm not seeing many (if any) tractors that I could afford with that sort of lifting capacity.
How much could I manage without a tractor at all?
How much could I manage with a compact tractor (30-60hp)
Finally, how large of a tractor would I need to be able to fully utilize the capability of the HD38, from my guess-timations, I would need something massive (and therefore expensive $$$)
I've seen some interesting things done with log arches and winches that might help a compact tractor to move around logs that it otherwise wouldn't be able to lift with the FEL. Not sure how viable it really is
I sometimes drag and nudge logs around with a 50 hp 2 wheel drive tractor with a loader. It would handle a 4,000 pound log with a log arch just fine. If your mill has a log lift then you could get by with a 50 ish hp tractor. My 50 hp tractor will lift 1,800 pounds but going anywhere with it can be challenging. :D
Look for used rough terrain forklifts. We bought one a while back for $13,500. It was an older machine and ugly (DuPont overhaul) but in good condition. The only thing we did to it was put a battery in it and replaced a couple of cracked windows.
Log arch is your friend when it comes to bigger logs (or small logs with lighter machinery). Providing you aren't on steep ground any tractor can TOW much more than it can lift.
Sure it's a bit more messing about than a machine that can just grab and move the log, and you sill need a way to get the log onto the band mill, but that's what hydraulic loader arms are for. Or ramps and winch if you are on a budget.
You know the old saying? "Cheap, Good or Fast, pick any 2?" Log arch and smaller tractor is cheaper, but still good. It's not as fast as a wheel loader with ~6,000 lb lift of course, but that's not cheap.
If the logs are that heavy and you are cutting slabs.How much are the slabs going to weigh?That's what I would be worried about .Probably more than can be handled by hand and they will need to be stacked and stickered.
I just CSMed a red oak into 3" thick slabs, 31" on the big and 24" on the small end, 11' long. My 2016 70hp kubota has a 3000# front lift capacity and that log was at max capacity. I was able to curl the forks but not pick it up. I backed it off my trailer, lowered it and got the log into position and lowered the log onto some dunnage to get it off the ground. I would estimate 200-250 lbs for the slabs.
That tractor when i purchased it was $39,000, and prices have only gone up.
Google a youtuber, matt cremona. He built a wide cut mill and a car hauler style trailer that he outfitted with a log arch he built. He would back up to his mill and use a winch to either push the log off the trailer and onto the mill, and then finally got a winch for his sawmill and would winch the logs off and onto the mill.
He now has a jlg rough terrain telehandler forklift to do his log handling.
An arch can do many tasks, so dont discount the arch. As wlmedley said, and i will agree with the wt. of the slabs, you'll need 2-3 people to handle them, or a 25-50hp tractor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0290.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041250)
Sometime older backhoes are available that can easily handle the heavy stuff that an agriculture tractor won't budge.
@Magicman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011)
Where did you get those log spikes/tong ends you have buried in the end of that log?
Those are my Magic Hooks that you see mentioned here quite often.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0283.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041249)
I made mine from two broken logging tongs. I split the eye, inserted the ring, and then welded it back.
Quote from: Magicman on November 26, 2022, 05:40:54 PM
Those are my Magic Hooks that you see mentioned here quite often.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/2410/DSCN0283.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1267041249)
I made mine from two broken logging tongs. I split the eye, inserted the ring, and then welded it back.
Iv seen them mentioned, never dug in to far to find out more. But since i couldnt find anything that would work for me, i was thinking of buying tongs just to cut them aprat for the individual tongs like you did, or was going to build some out of 4140, weld a plate to hammer on, heat treat just the spikes, then temper them.
Unless you need a PTO or 3 point hitch I would look at industrial equipment over AG equipment. Most AG loader tracrors were built with the thought of moving a round bale of hay, and not doing that all day, every day. The loaders, hydraulics, and front ends are not built to be dealing with max weight logs all the time. Yes, you can do it, yes some will spec a tractor to handle the weight, but if you are looking at used that's not going to be the case.
My log handling now is all done via a Lull telehandler, hands down it kicks the butt of any of my tractors when it comes to lifting and carrying a load. With a little modification I have two hydraulic remotes at the front and a Quick Tack head, so it will hook to and run any skid steer attachment, and run it 20' in the air.
Not ideal but life is full of compromise. All tractors will lift significantly more with little chance of damage on the 3pt hitch end rather than the FEL. 3pt hitch forks with a hydraulic top link for tilt can do wonders on a 50hp class machine. 2wd will lift every bit as good from the back as 4wd.
@cutterboy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1157) is a master at using his 3 point hitch for handling logs, etc. LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=80957.msg1941729#msg1941729)
I agree.My small tractor is all I have ever had.I have moved up to 30" x12' logs with it and log arch and 3 point hitch has always picked one end up.With a set of rear forks on a larger tractor it would surprise you what it would lift.Older forklifts we're mostly farm tractors turned around backwards with forks lifting from rear axle.
I bought a piggyback forklift 12 years ago for $7,000. It will turn on a dime, lifts 6,000 pounds to 12', forks go in/out, gets good traction off road, doesn't tear up the ground, and has side shift. I think for the money, it way out performs any machine out there for sawmill use.
Besides the ability to lift big logs I needed a machine that would lift stacks of lumber. I stack as I saw. When I sticker stack, it is normally 600 board foot. When flat stacking for custom sawing I might make the stack bigger.... It is the perfect match to load my Nyle L53 kiln as I can put in a full load with one lift.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/2011_04280016.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1669516092)
Around the mill it doesn't get hardly any hours and other than fluid changes the only maintenance has been a couple of batteries.
Quote from: SawyerTed on November 26, 2022, 04:13:59 PM
I sometimes drag and nudge logs around with a 50 hp 2 wheel drive tractor with a loader. It would handle a 4,000 pound log with a log arch just fine. If your mill has a log lift then you could get by with a 50 ish hp tractor. My 50 hp tractor will lift 1,800 pounds but going anywhere with it can be challenging. :D
Look for used rough terrain forklifts. We bought one a while back for $13,500. It was an older machine and ugly (DuPont overhaul) but in good condition. The only thing we did to it was put a battery in it and replaced a couple of cracked windows.
Those rough terrain forklifts look real promising! From the quick search i did they seem like a good value, some have some really huge lifting capacity! cut_tree
Quote from: Wlmedley on November 26, 2022, 04:44:29 PM
If the logs are that heavy and you are cutting slabs.How much are the slabs going to weigh?That's what I would be worried about .Probably more than can be handled by hand and they will need to be stacked and stickered.
True. but a even a smaller tractor can move a ~300 lb green slab easy enough. I think the OP does need some sort of machinery, but it probably doesn't need to be able to pick up a ~4,000 lb log.
The industrial machinery IS better for material handling, because that's what they were primarily designed for. Farm tractors are more multi-purpose. They can be used to move stuff, but their capacity is more limited. But they are more common and have many more uses around a farm. If you can only justify one machine for multi-purposes, they are a good option. Like a small tractor and log arch can haul a large log 1/2 a mile or even down a back country road.
Personally my mill is lighter and easier to move than most logs, so I go to the logs, and can mill 36" logs without machinery. But given the option, a decent farm tractor does make life a lot easier.
You have received good advice on looking beyond the AG tractors. The industrial type tractors/skip loaders front ens are a lot heavier built, also look at the smaller articulating front loaders as those can be purchased at times quite reasonable also as wes previously mentioned the off-road forklift both ridged frame and articulate frame can be found on auction sites going for a reasonable price, I think most any of the above machines will be much more durable than an ag tractor unless you plan to spend $$$$$ for a custom built unit.
Quote from: Larry on November 26, 2022, 09:46:39 PM
I bought a piggyback forklift 12 years ago for $7,000. It will turn on a dime, lifts 6,000 pounds to 12', forks go in/out, gets good traction off road, doesn't tear up the ground, and has side shift. I think for the money, it way out performs any machine out there for sawmill use.
Besides the ability to lift big logs I needed a machine that would lift stacks of lumber. I stack as I saw. When I sticker stack, it is normally 600 board foot. When flat stacking for custom sawing I might make the stack bigger.... It is the perfect match to load my Nyle L53 kiln as I can put in a full load with one lift.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/2011_04280016.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1669516092)
Around the mill it doesn't get hardly any hours and other than fluid changes the only maintenance has been a couple of batteries.
Very nice, that looks like perfect. Compact, doesnt need a lot of room to operate, which im imagining is very handy when getting urban logs.
I wonder, how often do you guys go through the effort of estimating log weight? I'll bet many of you could guess by looking at it, but I'll have to be keeping track
Another thing to look at, esp looking outside the ag tractor, what equipment do you have to move that equipment?
My first ag tractor was a 35hp kubota, purchased a 12k gvw with 9k load capacity bumper pull. That was fine for my 35 and 50 ho tractors. My 70 hp with bucket and shredder put me a lil over the 9k capacity. I still use the bp to haul the tractor short distances but for any long distance, i feel safer and stay legal by using my 24k 30+5 gn.
When looking at your log handling equipment, dont forget to see if your tck and trailer can haul the equip without having to buy another tck and or trailer just to haul the log handler.
If your plans are that it never leaves your property, then paying someone a 1 time hauling fee would work out good for you.
Quote from: fugg on November 26, 2022, 10:37:04 PM
Very nice, that looks like perfect. Compact, doesnt need a lot of room to operate, which im imagining is very handy when getting urban logs.
I wonder, how often do you guys go through the effort of estimating log weight? I'll bet many of you could guess by looking at it, but I'll have to be keeping track
I have to do the estimation when looking at logs/trees to figure out if taking my tractor and gn will keep me around my 17,400 capacity plus room for both tractor and logs, or do i take just my gn and use my log arch.
Downside to my arch, i havent figured out how to stack logs on top of each other vs. having only running 1 tier of logs.
I have a small kubota BX25, front end loader/backhoe, only 23 HP. I put a quick change on it and also have a grapple. I can lift smaller logs, 8ft x 20 inches though I have wrangled a 16 footer w/ smaller diameters. I can move huge logs with my long arch and trailing dolley including 20 footers. I can move logs around with the grapple and roll them pretty easy. The grapple allows me to make nice neat piles of logs too. I have forks to put on my FEL but they are not all that great. They do get the job done.
A forklift dedicated to just doing the lumber mill operations would be great. But to make the money go further, a multipurpose tractor might be the ticket. I know I have to go multipurpose. A larger FEL in the same configuration would be ideal.
Quote from: charles mann on November 26, 2022, 10:45:09 PM
Another thing to look at, esp looking outside the ag tractor, what equipment do you have to move that equipment?
My first ag tractor was a 35hp kubota, purchased a 12k gvw with 9k load capacity bumper pull. That was fine for my 35 and 50 ho tractors. My 70 hp with bucket and shredder put me a lil over the 9k capacity. I still use the bp to haul the tractor short distances but for any long distance, i feel safer and stay legal by using my 24k 30+5 gn.
When looking at your log handling equipment, dont forget to see if your tck and trailer can haul the equip without having to buy another tck and or trailer just to haul the log handler.
If your plans are that it never leaves your property, then paying someone a 1 time hauling fee would work out good for you.
I actually can not decide whether to go portable or not with the mill. I really like the idea of having a stationary electric mill. I had an epiphany that I need to go skip the mill for now, and focus on getting the logs here. If I can't move them from there to here, there's no point in having a mill. (duh)
I'm picturing that I could spend the next year getting some log handling equipment together and just store these logs in my yard.
If I'm able to move and store large logs here, how high should I sticker them off the ground? And how long could I keep them in the yard before they start to deteriorate? Multiple years?
Does anyone have experience getting urban trees? There are many of these large elms that were downed last year in a wind storm. I imagine showing up to someone's door and offering to buy and remove their downed trees could have some success. But getting them for free would be even better. How should I approach that issue? I don't want to go around asking for free downed trees, many many families heat with wood around here and might be insulting to just ask for the log.
You could get the logs and being in NM, put water sprinklers on the logs to keep them wet so they last longer and don't crack from drying out. But water may be a limiting variable in NM too. Doubt storing logs is a good plan for your endeavor, but don't know what you have available either.
Log storage is problematic. How long depends on the species and climate, but locally large borers will be into pine logs in months. More durable logs can still be worth milling after several years, but generally it's best to mill and dry as soon as possible.
I guess you need to decide on what your initial operation is going to be like. If you intend to collect urban logs, how are you going to pick them up? There are various designs for log loading frames to winch logs onto a trailer. Maybe that would be more use?
This is the sort of "urban salvage milling" I've done. No way to get heavy machinery into this guys backyard, but we got these logs milled with manpower, levers, jacks and at one point a tow strop hooked to my little Toyota.
Dusted off the mill.. in Sawmills and Milling (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=120380.0)
Either way, the mill is only a part of the operation. You can certainly go mobile and take the mill to the logs. Assume that anyone that can collect a stack of logs also has a means to move them? But if logs are coming to you, then YOU need a way to move them around your site. AND you need a site to work from.
Magicman for example only saws mobile, log and slab handling are up to the log owner. He "saws em and leaves em", which is a perfectly good business model. I'm only sawing as a hobby, and have a super light weight setup. This is my mill ready to roll, and if the log owner has a tractor to assist, that's a BIG bonus.
Tasmanian Blackwood in Sawmills and Milling (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=105404.msg1641081)
So there is no "one size fits all" answer. What do YOU need for your operation?
Quote from: fugg on November 26, 2022, 10:37:04 PMI wonder, how often do you guys go through the effort of estimating log weight?
That is simple enough, just click on the Red Toolbox on the left below the sponsors.
I'm going to offer a little bit of different advice. I grew up in Monte Vista, CO. just north of you. We had a good number of those same elms that you're referring to in our area. I will suggest you start looking for some better quality logs to make this venture more successful than those elm yard trees. I'm not saying you can't cut a few of them but the amount of movement in elm lumber, during the drying, can be a problem and makes for a lot of wasted lumber. It will be difficult for you to control the drying rate in your area of the world and this won't help much with elm.
I will also mention a small machine has some advantages like cleaning up in tight quarters. Forks are essential around a sawmill but so is a bucket.
I haven't read any of the other responses so apologies if I'm just parroting everyone else but, depending on what else you might need the machine for, I think you would be better suited with a skidloader or fork lift.
Personally I had a lot of other uses for a skidloader and also needed something that could be used off site so that's what I went with.
When I first got my mill I was using my father's 70hp Kubota a quickly realized how limited the lift capacity was (2000 lbs).
The skidloader I found has a tipping limit of a little over 4000 pounds and even that has often not been able to pick up even 8' white oak logs of large diameter but it handles most of what I needed and has been invaluable for other projects.
The tractor was scary when approaching the maximum lift. The skidloader feels much more solid and stable with heavy loads and when you do overload it the nose just drops straight down rather than trying to flip over on its side.
Alan
Quote from: customsawyer on November 27, 2022, 07:38:36 AM
I'm going to offer a little bit of different advice. I grew up in Monte Vista, CO. just north of you. We had a good number of those same elms that you're referring to in our area. I will suggest you start looking for some better quality logs to make this venture more successful than those elm yard trees. I'm not saying you can't cut a few of them but the amount of movement in elm lumber, during the drying, can be a problem and makes for a lot of wasted lumber. It will be difficult for you to control the drying rate in your area of the world and this won't help much with elm.
Small world - I lived in Monte Vista near Ski-Hi stadium for a number of years, I just recently moved.
That really stinks that the elm isn't a quality log to work with, its absolutely everywhere, and they're so large as well. I just did some googling about other people trying to dry Siberian elm, and they tend to agree with you. Lots of people having trouble with movement like you've said. It does show some people still go through the effort, with stack weighting and a specific schedule. Still, he says he has degrade losses. And I'd still have to battle with how dry it is here. I'm still stubborn enough to try, but I'm picturing myself learning the same lesson you are trying to tell me, hah.
So then, I need to figure out the other valuable logs in my area. The next best thing I can think of are the junipers, some russian olive, but beyond that I can only think of fir, spruce, pine, and aspen. There are some other species of trees that have been planted in folks yards that come down, saw a nice silver maple get taken down on the job site two weeks ago, but those are few and far between. There is an established local mill that does rough sawn lumber for local builders, but they don't do anything other than the fir, spruce, pine. That's why I was hoping to be able to do something different, like live edge slabs, so I don't have to compete with them.
Larry, thanks for the post of the piggyback forklift. I have thought about getting one. It would be easier to move lumber stacks then our farm tractors that always seem to be used right be for I get on it. I would like to see him pack silage with it.
I've used farm tractors with loaders, skid steers, backhoe's, telehandlers and large articulating loaders around my mill.
Personally I'd stay away from a farm tractor due to limited lifting capability, difficulty in seeing the forks, and easy to tip if the load is high.
I'd size your machine to the maximum log size that you will handle. If your logs are 3,500 lbs and under, a skid or compact track loader may be your optimum machine. It will allow you to easily switch between a grapple rake (for log handling), forks (for lumber handling), and bucket (for sawdust removal). If you have a dually and a 40' trailer, you can transport both sawmill and skid loader to a remote job site in one trip.
Telehandlers are great pieces of equipment for lumber and log handling, but not as versatile as a skid loader. One nice feature is the side tilt (which skid loaders usually lack).
Quote from: scsmith42 on November 28, 2022, 11:55:20 AM
If you have a dually and a 40' trailer, you can transport both sawmill and skid loader to a remote job site in one trip.
Which then could require a CDL, depending which state an ag license may be acceptable but with limitations, as in tx has a 150 radial mile restriction.
Additionally, if a full cdl is required per state and or federal law, it now requires attending a cdl driving/training school under the new (feb 7 2022) fmca regulation change.
I got pulled over for running 70 in a 60 pulling my dozer with my trailer tagged as ag/farm and my tck tagged with disabled vet plates. I didnt have a cdl and the wt. and measure trooper said i needed at a minimum of an ag non commercial cdl bc my trailer was a 24k gvwr.
Larry, that is a great buy! I don't have a need for one at my place but I'd still love to have one! That sideways driving part is incredible. They delivered 40 foot long barn trusses to my house with one of those and he just turned the wheels 90 degrees and came straight on down the driveway. Too cool.
I move logs with the backhoe, 95hp, but I do a lot of other junk in the yard too so that was the right choice for me. I don't saw the logs though, too much, and not on a mill. So far, with the over the bucket forks (the kind on a bar that grabs onto some hooks welded to the top of the loader bucket, not the garbagey clamp-on forks that I bent up on my first use) I've moved some pretty substantial logs without any trouble. If I was running a mill I'd go with an off road forklift, but missing a loader bucket to move sawdust would still be an issue.
The Ag / non Class A CDL is a good option if your state allows it. I have one in KS that lets me drive a semi with grain to the elevator.
Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 01:38:34 PM
The Ag / non Class A CDL is a good option if your state allows it. I have one in KS that lets me drive a semi with grain to the elevator.
Im trying to get my wife to get her ag class B so she can drive my 5 ton 936 crane truck so i can pull my gn with my dually and we can load felled logs in a much faster method than a log arch.
Let me know how that works out for you. I am still trying to get my wife to drive the dually. :D
Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 05:31:39 PM
Let me know how that works out for you. I am still trying to get my wife to drive the dually. :D
She got the writtens out of the way but i was having a brake dragging issue on the back rear axle, then my low air pressure warning buzzer wouldnt shut up, troubleshooting pointed to replacing the buzz box, but @ $400, i just disconnected the cannon plug. I need to source a civi unit in 24v dc.
With those issues, i figured the driving test place wouldnt pass the tck. Since ag class a/b doesnt require a driving school, the wife is waiting till i get the issues resolved then she'll retake the writtens and then the driving test.
She will be in for a surprise when she realizes 55-60 is max mph, she will have to actually drive it, not just point and go, it rides stupid rough, no heat or a/c and no bluetooth radio with touch screen.
Never thought of myself as being clairvoyant, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I know what the future holds. :D
Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Never thought of myself as being clairvoyant, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I know what the future holds. :D
well, i'll at least get her to drive from hm to logs (150 miles one way) then back. but she probably won't ever drive it again. i gave her the choice, get her a and she can pull the gn, maxed @24,000 lbs (probably a few 1000 over) and i can drive the 5 ton, and she gladly accepted the getting the b license. she thought it was cool to drive it in the hay field and back hm, all 400' to the house.
I'm betting it'll go over as well as a fart in church on hot day and no a/c
Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 05:31:39 PM
Let me know how that works out for you. I am still trying to get my wife to drive the dually. :D
Wow, I guess that I got lucky because my wife has her own dually! Now getting her to use it to help me, that's another story....
If you're looking for max bang for the buck, I agree with Magicman - it's tough to beat a backhoe. If you can afford 4WD, even better. I fabbed hooks for my CAT so I can drive up and grab the forks when needed.
Lots of great advice in this thread.....
I just want to put out there that lifting capability is less about HP and more about hydraulics. I have a Kubota L2501 (25hp) that has the exact same FEL and 3pt lift capacity as the L3901 (39hp). The reason that much larger HP machines can lift more is that their hydro flow is greater. That being said, I have lifted logs much heavier than the listed capacity simply by keeping the logs very low to the ground via shorter lifting straps hooked onto bucket hooks and rolling the bucket back as far as it goes to get the log more under the pivot points. I also have a 700lb PTO chipper that I keep on the 3 pt as ballast and have never had major issues as long as I go slow and take my time.
I can certainly imagine that for logs in the 4K range, construction/commercial equip would be the way to go, especially if that will be the rule rather than the exception. Just be ready to get your ground torn up quite a bit if you are on soil versus stone or pavement.
Buddy of mine just got back his LS 55 HP tractor that he broke by overloading the bucket using a heavy counterweight on the back as ballast. Had it teeter tottering in 4WD backing up when the rear tires came down, destroyed internal drive axle, planetary gear, etc.
Yes, you can do it, just be prepared to pay to play.
His wife can get a bit excited, I can't imagine having to explain that to her.
Modern day hydraulics on new tractors are pretty impressive. I run two tractors at my mill. A 75hp for logs and a 55hp for lumber off the mill. Key is I think to know the weight limits and don't do anything stupid like trying to pick up a thousand bf of green oak boards. I have to make my stacks smaller for this reason but it's manageable and I am in no hurry. If your not high production or sawing over size logs a tractor will find a good place in your tool kit.
Very true, Nathan. I've seen most of your videos and you use your equipment wisely. I have checked ag tractors' specs and have noticed that Mahindra brand tractors seem to have more lift capacity than most others of comparable HP. Not saying that would be my first choice since they have had other issues, but if I ran across one at the right price I'd consider it. I can fix most things if I put my mind to it.
I agree with Nathan on sizing your work to your tractor. We stack our wood on pallets to dry. With 1x, we stack 16' lumber only seven layers, on 8', we stack 13 layers. With the telehandler, we could stack a lot higher but then it limits us to moving with one machine. We just move more than one pallet at a time when using the telehandler.
The 3pt hitch and forks will likely lift more than the tractors front hydraulics. This might be a good option for moving oversized logs. Until a few months ago, we moved logs and lumber with only a tractor (for the past 12-13 years). Our tractor is a Kubota M7040 (about 70 hp), but as far as hydraulic capability goes, the 50-70's are the same). There are other tractors of the same hp that will lift a lot more.
Not sure in that species of elm weight. But I have a 75hp skid steer that's rated for 2800lbs. And I've carried 16' 36" hemlock logs before. A little tippy but it loaded them on to the log mill. Good luck!