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Glyphosate or Triclopyr?

Started by LaneC, August 11, 2018, 11:36:36 AM

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LaneC

  Hello everyone.
  I just read about Monsanto having to pay 2 hundred something million dollars to a man, who evidently got Lymphoma from using Glyphosate. I have used that in the past, and it has done very well. I was just wondering if anyone knows about any possibility of the Triclopyr being any safer, as far as a carcinogen. I personally think all will have some sort of hazard, but if 1 is supposed to be a little less toxic than the other, and does the same job, then that is the route I will take. Thanks for any replies.
Man makes plans and God smiles

btulloh

Triclopyr is for broadleaf and woody plants, so it doesn't work on grasses.  I use both triclopyr and glyphosate and I plan to keep on using both.  Proper precautions taken.  Glyphosate is the most benign of all of them has no residual effect.  Vinegar does a good job, but it's a little hard to control.  Not bad for little spot jobs.  Industrial vinegar is really potent and it will sterilize the soil to some degree.

The science I have read about glyphosate does not support the notion that it causes cancer.  I am standing by for further information.  In the mean time, I will follow the guidelines for proper application.

Juries have awarded settlements for baby powder having caused cancer.  Someone sued and won because they were scalded by hot coffee.   Hmmmmmmm . . .



HM126

LaneC

  I understand. I will keep using Glyphosate, and will try the Triclopyr also. Thanks
Man makes plans and God smiles

Southside

Not looking to start an argument here but if you remember "they" told us DDT was safe, Thaladimaide is good for the mom and baby, there are videos of troops standing under atomic detonations to prove it was harmless and Anna Nicole married for love.... So.....
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LaneC

   No argument from me. I personally think they all have some type of effect if used a good bit and you keep getting it on, or in you (breathing it in, or absorption). I love Anna Nicole too :D :D Just joking. I appreciate all responses. 
Man makes plans and God smiles

pine

Straight off the label of both glyphosate and triclopyr amine and triclopyr ester both.

"Avoid contact with eyes, skin or clothing. Avoid breathing spray mist. Users should wash hands before eating,
drinking, chewing gum, using tobacco or using the toilet. Remove clothing immediately if pesticide gets inside.
Then wash thoroughly and put on clean clothing."

The number of folks that do not comply with sentence three are voluminous. Users should wash hands before eating, drinking, chewing gum, using tobacco or using the toilet.  Wear chemical resistant gloves while mixing.  Wash your hands before doing any of the above even if you were wearing chemical resistant gloves. Nothing is perfectly safe but if you do not comply with the label directions you put yourself more at risk than you need to and are just not offering a smart behavior.  Your decisions, your life.

Juries are filled with folks that think that no one gets hurt by their awarding huge settlements just because they feel sorry for the plaintiff not because they deserve it or that the defendant did anything that they should not have done.

Yes there are cases that should be litigated but our system is so broke.

btulloh

**********************Disclaimer***************************
  I don't know one way or the other.  I am interested in the results of 
future studies while obtaining the most accurate information 
available at this time.  
*********************************************************

Adding some links for information about glyphosate studies.  

This article is pretty informative and is actually readable by actual humans:

Long-term Study Finds That the Pesticide Glyphosate Does Not Cause Cancer | The Scientist Magazine®

This is from the NIH, and is guaranteed to make your eyes glaze over, but it contains a lot of information:
The need for independent research on the health effects of glyphosate-based herbicides


As always, it's hard to separate the sheep from the goats.  So far the only study that has determined there is some carcinogenic impact from glyphosate was done by the IARC - a part of the World Health Organization.  There are elements of this study and its conclusions that have been called into question by most other groups conducting studies, including the European Food Safety Agency.

I hope that others will sort through the noise out there and sift out the real information to share.

HM126

petefrom bearswamp

Ahh the conspiracy theories abound.
I for one hope Elvis is alive somewhere.
I use 2-4d, glyphosate but not 2-4-5 t
Used malathion on my mater plants and very long ago paris green on my garden stuff
Still here but then I am in the twilight of my existence so what the heck.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

lxskllr

It's my policy to not use chemicals at all. I could foresee using some with surgical precision, but so far it hasn't been necessary. Between cutting with a machete, and hand pulling, I've kept my problems under control. It's more work, but you can't beat the price, and there's no labels to read.

Specifically regarding glyphosate, I think it's one of the safer /poisons/ out there, and I believe the court judgment wasn't based on good science, but it isn't something I need to worry about since I won't be using it.

LaneC

  I like that policy of using no chemicals. If I could kill the highly invasive species known as Cogan grass with a machete, I would love to do that. Also The highly invasive species known as Chinese Tallow (Popcorn trees ), I have actually tried to kill that with a machete, however, after one cuts the tree down, it will sprout again with a vengeance unless poisoned. Chinese Privet  is another one. These types of plants and trees have totally changed the native plants and trees in this area. The State is even giving poison away to try and control these species. I am a firm believer in using the least amount of anything, as much as possible, and using it responsibly, however, most people do not have the time or physical ability to try and kill several acres of an invasive grass with a machete. I hope that does not come out the wrong way, just saying...
Man makes plans and God smiles

low_48

Quote from: btulloh on August 11, 2018, 07:16:02 PM
Triclopyr is for broadleaf and woody plants, so it doesn't work on grasses.  I use both triclopyr and glyphosate and I plan to keep on using both.  Proper precautions taken.  Glyphosate is the most benign of all of them has no residual effect.  Vinegar does a good job, but it's a little hard to control.  Not bad for little spot jobs.  Industrial vinegar is really potent and it will sterilize the soil to some degree.

The science I have read about glyphosate does not support the notion that it causes cancer.  I am standing by for further information.  In the mean time, I will follow the guidelines for proper application.

Juries have awarded settlements for baby powder having caused cancer.  Someone sued and won because they were scalded by hot coffee.   Hmmmmmmm . . .
My dear neighbor died from ovarian cancer. She used powder all her life to stay fresh. My brother was a farmer who died at the age of 48 from colon cancer. Our family has absolutely no cancer diagnosis until him. My Dad died at the age of 61. He would even add diesel fuel to Roundup to get a better kill. I'm a believer.

gspren

Adding to the hard to figure out is that what will cause cancer in me might not in you or vice versa. I know of guys that smoked heavy for 60+ years without a problem and there are children with lung cancer, sometimes it's just the way it is.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

Gary_C

The issue of toxic/carcinogenic properties of Glyphosate/Roundup are not easily defined. Here is a good summary of the two opposing findings.

For instance, a 2015 study by the European Food Safety Authority concluded that glyphosate was "unlikely to pose a carcinogenic hazard to humans." Yet a review by the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer that same year classified glyphosate as "probably carcinogenic" to humans. An investigation by Reuters later found that key information had been omitted from the report that supported the conclusion that the pesticide does not cause cancer in animals.

I could add to those findings that the "probably carcinogenic" category also includes "red meat."

To add to the uncertainty, studies that have shown glyphosate (the active ingredient in Roundup) to not be a problem also have shown that the formulated Roundup with all the surfactants and inert ingredients added may be some what more of a problem. However the surfactants are also found in things like dish soap and household cleaners. 

We live in a world full of chemicals and many of the things like gas, diesel, herbicides, pesticides, household cleaners and disinfectants like bleach can be harmful to your health. So the answer to avoiding problems is to use these products wisely, follow the instructions, and limit your exposure, not avoid them altogether.

When I was still crop farming, I did use Roundup Ready seeds but I also found that what little it cost me to hire a local coop applicator to do all my required spraying was good protection for my health. Let the people with the fancy self propelled sprayers with enclosed cabs that were fully equipped to handle chemicals do the dirty work. I still do use limited amounts of roundup for weed control around the buildings but know enough to stay out of the wind and wash up after applications.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Brucer

I used to use a small amount of Roundup to eradicate weed outside the garden. Then Barb did some research and came up with a formula that works almost as well.

  - 1 Imperial gallon of vinegar (1.2 US gallons)
  - 1 cup of salt.
  - 1 squirt of liquid dish soap.

Later she refined it to something quite a bit cheaper; and more effective.

  - 300 grams of citric acid (10 ounces by weight).
  - 250 millitres of salt (1 cup)
  - 4 litres of hot water. (1 US gallon)
  - 2 squirts of liquid dish soap.

Citric acid is a solid and it dissolves much better in hot water. We buy ours from the local brew shop.
The dish soap is a wetting agent that ensures the solution spreads evenly over the leaves.

In our early experiments we saw no sign that it was having an effect for the first week. Then suddenly leaves started to go brown and the plants started to die off after about 10 days.

Rain (or sprinklers) will wash it off easily so you need to keep an eye on the weather forecast before you apply it.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Gary_C

Brucer, from what I learned some years ago, Glyphosate is similar to salt and has about the same toxicity. In fact, there were stories that some Monsanto sales people actually drank some Roundup to prove their point. Yes, it will make you sick just like a concentrated table salt solution but it will not kill you.

With that in mind, either of your formulations will probably be effective. Salt is the active ingredient with the other things being surfactants (dish soap) and adjuvants (vinegar and citric acid) to make the active ingredient more effective.

Incidentally, rock salt is commonly used in asparagus beds to control weeds as the asparagus is either too deep rooted or immune to the salt.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Brucer

Yep, they both work. At first they seem to just affect spots on the plant leaves, but about the time you figure they're not all that great, the whole plant turns brown. I try to use the solutions sparingly because if too much salt accumulates in the soil most plants won't grow.

For large areas with thick growth I use a garden sprayer. When I'm trying to single out one or two plants that are mixed in with desirable plants, I use a small home-made cotton mop to "paint" the leaves of whatever I'm trying to kill.

It's been my experience that you have to cover more of the plants leaves with these solutions than you would with Roundup. You don't have to cover every square inch of leaf, however.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Ed_K

 There's an article in the Pellet Mill magazine about California's proposition 65. They have over 900 chemical's known as carcinogens. It's more to alert small business's of the many law suits brought against them for not properly labeling their product. It's in the Pellet Mill mag because prop 65 list's wood dust as causing cancer.  
Ed K

John Mc

Quote from: Brucer on August 22, 2018, 12:53:20 AMI try to use the solutions sparingly because if too much salt accumulates in the soil most plants won't grow.


Glyphosate is not soil active, and does not "carry over". It breaks down quickly on contact with soil. It will kill live plants (by inhibiting their ability to photosynthesize). It is not supposed to kill plants from seeds in the ground or things that you later plant there.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Southside

I have read the claims about the lack of carry over. Just look at the ditch line of any field in the spring, absolutely bare while the ditch itself will have a lot of fresh growth from annuals and perrinials, both those that spread by seed and rhizome, yet nothing crosses the line that was sprayed 6 to 10 months earlier. Why is that?
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

John Mc

Glyphosate is not the only herbicide that farmers use. Sometimes the fields are treated with pre-emergent herbicides, or with things that are meant to carry over. It's also possible that if the field has been sprayed regularly enough, the seed bank of various weeds has been depleted.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Southside

I am talking about RR bean fields, no pre emergent used. Your answer about the seed bank is a logical one, but does not explain rhizome plants, bird/deer deposited seeds, combine trash seed, fall blown tree seeds, etc. 

Fall bean desication with 2,4,D is relatively new in this area, and Dicambra has not been used yet here. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Gary_C

Good weed control year after year will reduce the weed pressure. Also most germination occurs in the spring so things may look clean after the cool season but even then if you add heat and moisture you will always see some growth when warmer temps arrive. And then there is fall and spring tillage to consider.

I can assure you those weed free areas will not stay that way when the soil warms and moisture arrives.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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