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"Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?

Started by jake pogg, May 30, 2021, 10:49:18 AM

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jake pogg

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 22, 2021, 11:55:41 AMIs there a reason other than look you are hiding your butt joints where the ends of two logs come together not at a corner?


Joe,the answer to that is kinda right there in the question:When we try to do our best to avoid,or blend in as best we can,et c.,those joints-it's because we Feel like it's somehow not ok,right?

The building surrounding us affect us,mentally,if we like it or not,if we notice it or think about it or not.
We're visual predators,with excellent eyesight,an ability to see gazillion shades of any color and detail.
We constantly crunch visual data in our heads,with a certain effect as a result.

It Matters to us what surrounds us.Look at how highly valued a log-home is-it's not for any practical reason that people choose to live in a log or timber structure(that costs half again more to build than a frame too).

So it's just somehow not Right or something,a type of joint that stops your eye and says:"Wait a minute...trees don't do that..that line is Off,somehow..".

Having written all that psycho-babble i must add this:
(btw,i'm an entirely unschooled dolt,never made it through 7th grade,and failed to pass for GED twice...so please don't think me coming like a conceited psychologist nor any other professional,you're talking with an old,not overly bright river-rat here)


The two cross-walls that are so far entirely fake are located in the middle of the two long outside walls.Once above head-height i May start growing them out towards the center of the house,eventually capping them with a solid beam right across.So they'll together form an arch.

That beam may serve as the main support for me to put a half-story on top of this structure,it'll carry one end of floor beams that'll span from it to the back wall,breaking the joist span to allow for a good solid floor that is not overly thick(may also add that pleasant Tudor-ish feel inside underneath).

In other words these goofy cross-walls make for a significantly strong points to transfer weight,sturdy and versatile.  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

Don P

 :D I wrote that after a similar day, the last foot of the dig was jackhammer and shovel work. Just off the top but fairly close, from those relative humidity numbers your equilibrium moisture content is going to want to be around 14% outside and 7% inside in winter. The tangential grain outside is going to shrink twice as much as the radial grain inside. It's looking to me like if you start out tight you won't end up too bad in the end. Great in theory, in the real world knots and abnormal grain get into the mix.

Checking, or, severe checking is the shell drying over a still green and swollen core. If the client can live cooler for the first winter till the core is shrinking that internal stress reversal will help keep checking from becoming severe, it begins pulling on the shell.

If you drive bright nails in, I suppose galvy's would work too and hook the meter to them it will read the point of lowest resistance, the wettest place along the nail, which is probably the tips. I have insulated 3" prongs that only have the metal on the tips exposed so you know where the reading is coming from as you drive them in. I can see the moisture gradient as I drive them in. I think I have an old pic in my gallery..


 
Pretty bad pic but it shows the slide hammer and probes. A couple had bought this kit and asked us to build it. The logs were cypress, supposedly kiln dried to 17%. The first few cutoffs let me know that was a lie, the core was obviously still above FSP. I didn't have to hammer the pins in far to peg the meter. Running a lag in squeezed water out, dead green. I took those pictures just in case anything happened but they were happy with it.

jake pogg

Quote from: Don P on June 23, 2021, 08:38:43 PM
:D I wrote that after a similar day, the last foot of the dig was jackhammer and shovel work. Just off the top but fairly close, from those relative humidity numbers your equilibrium moisture content is going to want to be around 14% outside and 7% inside in winter. The tangential grain outside is going to shrink twice as much as the radial grain inside. It's looking to me like if you start out tight you won't end up too bad in the end. Great in theory, in the real world knots and abnormal grain get into the mix.

Checking, or, severe checking is the shell drying over a still green and swollen core. If the client can live cooler for the first winter till the core is shrinking that internal stress reversal will help keep checking from becoming severe, it begins pulling on the shell.

If you drive bright nails in, I suppose galvy's would work too and hook the meter to them it will read the point of lowest resistance, the wettest place along the nail, which is probably the tips. I have insulated 3" prongs that only have the metal on the tips exposed so you know where the reading is coming from as you drive them in. I can see the moisture gradient as I drive them in. I think I have an old pic in my gallery..


 
Pretty bad pic but it shows the slide hammer and probes. A couple had bought this kit and asked us to build it. The logs were cypress, supposedly kiln dried to 17%. The first few cutoffs let me know that was a lie, the core was obviously still above FSP. I didn't have to hammer the pins in far to peg the meter. Running a lag in squeezed water out, dead green. I took those pictures just in case anything happened but they were happy with it.

Don,the extent of your knowledge and understanding,And your ability of telling it so clearly is Outstanding.
I can't thank you enough,and want to make sure that you know that it is greatly appreciated.
(i don't understand the internet none too well,but i think these kinds of forum topics often come up in searches,and so this will benefit a very large number of people).

I'm sure you're right about the planing.
I had to plane today,finally,to  knock the twist down on two logs.
With an 1806(6 3/4") it was very fast and painless.

The scary part is that i can actually See planing All top surfaces right after the logs go in place.

Even scarier-logs can be placed/planed flat on top/inverted onto a straight surface and bottom side planed in plane with the top!:)

But it'd be a crazy amount of time and effort...

There's a forging term,a "one-armed smith",i don't know the woodworking equivalent...
In the forge working alone changes Lots,some actions require special tooling,or cannot be done at all,without a striker(or two, or five:))

Log-building site is similar,of course.I'm not building no 5000' sq. palace,but ...By my rough estimate i'll be on the walls till end of August.
That's including milling the 2+(maybe more) courses of 8" D-log that i'm missing.
That'll leave +/_ 6 weeks to mill,assemble,and set-up all roof trusses,stringers,and everything else for the roof,gable ends,the works.

The windows will be visqueen(way warmer than glass),but that tin Must go on.

Then a barrel stove gets stuck in the and-magically-i've a Shop!!!

Tons of stuff to do inside there during the winter,taking care of the interior of the logs first and foremost,but also building lots of stuff for the house.
Our tin has been paid for,and delivered by barge,our budget is now nonexistent-this is It,the siege is on!:)

Just out of pure contrariness alone i'd like to see just how much i can do inside the place with driftwood lumber alone.
Kitchen,for sure,but lots of other stuff...(in place of closets many nice Scandinavian-style blanket chests along all walls:))

My strength here is the ultimate versatility-i can mill Anything i want,and have some wonderful trees to do it with.
I just need the brain to plan it correctly,with sound strategy there're no limits.

I've all sorts of evil ideas(not necessarily plans for this house,but,who knows).Things like a edge-set&bisquited&glued 3"x3" or so flooring...
Or one like in some Swiss chalets-t&g 2x12's angled slightly fan-shape,with a central master driven in from outside,through special through-mortise in the wall...(Where it protrudes outside,you set your pot of begonias on:)...and on the wall next to it hangs a mallet for regulating your floor..). 

But,for Any of that fun-i Must get closed in before end of October.
Once you no longer capable of handling a fastener with bare fingers or -20F,is pretty much a done site...
 


"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

jake pogg

 

 

Still alive,in the middle of 8th course now(out of total 12,+ the pony wall/half-story of some sort,possibly framed).

Milling my own timbers since the 5th course.
An insult to injury,as i'm finding more and more things wrong with "D-logs",and now not only have to use them but actually produce them myself(wasting all kinds of lovely round logs to do so,producing this piddly 8" of wall-height,+some ultra-low quality lumber as byproduct,for reason of cant being parallel not to heart but to one of the bark sides instead).

But the show must go on.

Working entirely by myself,a worn out old fart and a half-century old Allis Chalmers 500-series,it takes me about 4 days a course,plus a day and a half to mill enough for it;with pegging and splining(splining as i go)about a week a course.
It's raining every day now,the platform is pretty well flooded.

Due to all surfaces being planed the mold has only just began,on the outer,north-facing wall,on the outside of it.
Will eventually fight it with glycol(if it ever stops raining),or bleach of whatever strength if i must...

 

That beautiful new LT40 never came on line,still flogging a friend's old Norwood that i've abused for over 20 years now...

 

Were i a real construction company,i'd use that old Hunter S Thompson quote as the company's motto:
"When the going gets weird the weird turn pro".

Speaking of "Timberlocks" or similar "log fasteners"(in the other thread):I abhore those,and only use them in extremis.
On this project so far i punched in 14 of these,pre-drilled with a 3/8" bit(for 1/4" fastener),and countersunk a couple inches down from top surface.
Believe them to be much misused,many here rely on these as primary fastener,with woeful long-term results.Wall logs get hung up,and many buckle later...  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

kantuckid

So, what stack wall fastener do you like? My home was pre-long timber screws and I used 100d, i.e., 12" x 3'8" dia common nails. I pilot drilled a 5/16" dia hole that allowed for settling later and a cutoff 6# sledge that I used today as a matter of fact. I was beating on the end of a heavy steel tube to adjust the length of my old wagon gear I bought to fabricate a 14' hay wagon ala wall logs etc. building material wagon. IN the heat last few days it was brutal, swampy humidity combo'ed with 90's temps it's about all I can stand. Your rain might be the better place?
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

jake pogg

Quote from: kantuckid on July 28, 2021, 05:13:15 PMSo, what stack wall fastener do you like? My home was pre-long timber screws and I used 100d, i.e., 12" x 3'8" dia common nails. I pilot drilled a 5/16" dia hole that allowed for settling later and a cutoff 6# sledge that I used today as a matter of fact.


I thought about your question and the answer i'm afraid is "i don't know..."...

My mind is admittedly uneasy about this,yet there it is.
I've just completed the 8th course on a 40'+ x 30' building not fastening any of the logs to one another...(i've used 14 timberlocks so far,in problem locations).

I wanted to through-fasten the entire 8' of these walls with 1" dia all-thread,but didn't have the hardware at the crucial time and it's now too late.

The first course is through-fastened to the H-beam below with 1/2" all-thread,at about 4' centers,the rest of the logs are only pegged and float otherwise.

Again,i'm far from easy about this in my mind,but could not think of what else i could do.
Timberlocks are skinny and flexy,their thread flats areas are entirely wrong for soft woods such as spruce,so they contribute neither the holding power nor stiffness,but only increase the risk of logs hanging up in settling,so they were a poor choice,i felt.

I've seen some vastly superior helical fasteners in a u-tube video of a trade show/expo in Germany,but nothing like that is available anywhere i 'm capable of accessing...    
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

Don P

You don't have a continuous load path and low shear strength.

Most of the D logs we did were 3/8x10 lags in a prebored countersunk hole. The timber screws hadn't taken hold yet, I think we did one and I went through a bucket of my lags. I prefer to draw things down at assembly, which is why I say dryer is better. I don't think allthread can pull a stack down as tight as I can get it layer by layer. I've also drilled as we stack and installed allthread full height. That is a more positive load path and can be set up to tighten more later. I think I would at a minimum timberlock the header row to the stacks below and then whatever rows are above that up to the rafter plate.

Predrilling the upper log for the timberlock would allow some degree of room for divergent angles. The lag hole, although 1/8" oversize doesn't allow for much of that. And then twisting or bowing logs are pinching on the holes to whatever degree as well. No free lunch  :D

kantuckid

Don P- have you constructed a stack log wall using log construction wall jacks (as sold by log building suppliers) to allow future wall height adjustments? 
A local FT sawmill owner who also was formerly in the EWP log home business (materials and the construction too) used them in his own home. 
Many years ago I visited a kit log home in N KY that used all-thread and milled stack logs. 

jake pogg- check out Montana Log Homes | Amish Log Builders | Meadowlark Log Homes - Meadowlark Log Homes to see their version of stack log construction. They are an Amish group who build in MT commercially. They have a bit different approach than any other I've seen, especially their corners. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

jake pogg

Great info,Don,thank you.
Sounds like a very sound plan,to fasten the header course,i think i'll do that(and maybe the next one-which will be the last-to that).

I pre-drill the upper log for 1/4" timberlocks with a 3/8" bit,and countersick with a 1 3/8 forstener bit a couple inches down,for the large washers i use with it all.

Kantuckid,thank you;i looked at that link,and i'm sure those are sound,solid cabins,but those "butt-and-run" corners,and the random vertical joints in walls is just how folks build around here,and it's exactly what i'm going through all this trouble to avoid!:)
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

jake pogg

 

 

I'm finally at that 11th,the header course.The first clear night in...weeks,i think,the first time i've seen the moon and the stars since May.
My perpetually-flooded platform is covered by about 1/4" of ice,the time is running out...
The mold issue,that i've been attempting to battle with ethylene glycol is getting the upper hand...Everything hangs in the balance,and with the dark and the cold looming,one feels it more urgently.
That's how it goes,for all the effort i may well end up with a tarped-down moldy ruin...
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

kantuckid

Our home I began on log walls just before my school job kicked in for fall and got the walls up but no roof before KY winter set in. It just happened to be a near record snowfall year of over 4' which meant I was shoveling snow off the subfloors and pumping water when I could from the basement.
 Next spring after the roof was laid down I washed mold for days off walls. Wasn't AK but was a nasty thing to deal with overall.  
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

jake pogg

 


A while back,in another thread,Don asked if I'm still happening...I answered,but not sure he got my response...

The project is going ahead(at a glacial rate of speed,but going).
Have only just finished the 1x's that the Tim will be screwed to.
Today hung the first six sheets of metal roofing.
(Sorry about the multiplicity of photos,a mistake while learning to use the phone to post here).(Edited by moderator)
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

jake pogg

 

 

 

The reason I'm so slow is that all the material needs to be produced from scratch.
Drift logs to be chased down,processed in the water and hauled out,before even milling.
Meanwhile,I heat with wood solely,and even more importantly several of my aged friends,and firewood takes priority of course.
Last year the drift run failed aost entirely,but ironically I had a sufficiency of mill logs.
This year the drift is plentiful,but of a very poor quality.The best of what I caught I also managed to loose in a storm,carelessness with rafting wood is punishable like that...
The mill I've access to is now right at my building site,and I'm re-milling some of the old timbers I got laying around.
The 1x's for roof purlins we're all waste from milling the 8" 3-sided wall timbers,as it's a notoriously wasteful process.
Scavenging assorted lber as you get down to needed tbet produces very low quality,too-flat dawn lumber,but for application like under roofing sufficient enough...
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

Don P

Quote from: jake pogg on June 09, 2022, 11:51:20 PMA while back,in another thread,Don asked if I'm still happening...I answered,but not sure he got my response...


Yes, I nodded vigorously :). We had an open winter and also just started throwing tin on the roof this week, and we are not swiftwater logging. You've made amazing progress and it looks awesome, good show! 

Bullheaded

Jake,
I use the same Makita planer. I probably have near 1000 hrs peeling everything from 6" jack pine to 36" x 40ft kiln dried White pine with them. My sauna was built using a couple of different drawknives. My " built without any power tools" theme was the mission. Back then, at 55 years old I thought I could hand power thru the knots....and did. I have paid for it in my back and shoulders ever since. FWIW, peeling with the curved shoe Makita is a learned artform. Technique is everything in making an appealing finish. This day in age, any contractor that makes someone hand peel with a drawknife is begging for comp/injury case down the road. Your project looks amazing!
Be thankful for every new day.

jake pogg

Quote from: Bullheaded on June 14, 2022, 08:11:54 AM
Jake,
I use the same Makita planer. I probably have near 1000 hrs peeling everything from 6" jack pine to 36" x 40ft kiln dried White pine with them. My sauna was built using a couple of different drawknives. My " built without any power tools" theme was the mission. Back then, at 55 years old I thought I could hand power thru the knots....and did. I have paid for it in my back and shoulders ever since. FWIW, peeling with the curved shoe Makita is a learned artform. Technique is everything in making an appealing finish. This day in age, any contractor that makes someone hand peel with a drawknife is begging for comp/injury case down the road. Your project looks amazing!
Thank you for your kind comments,and yes,i can't agree more about the potential of the curved-shoe plane (and the punishment we all get from All tool,hand- and electric both...:().
Some people i know that used to built with logs a lot(as a commercial method it's been declining in AK steadily and is almost down to nothing nowadays) used those massive Greenlee drawknives (forgot the model,but have one at the site and can take a photo).
They used them for getting the bark off.
(nasty dried on bark,hard as a rock,as they didn't want the log to check and dry too unevenly were it peeled green).
They used these drawknives with added-on wrist straps,adjusted to help on pull-stroke.
Then they'd use the curved-base Makita to take the additional 3/8" or so to get down to better wood below.
Was too tired to take a photo tonight but the tin is almost on the entire house...Hard to believe that the wall logs and joints and notches will not again be soaked by rain...Incredible feeling.
A friend here likes to say that when the roof is finally on you're exactly half-way to being done. For me it probably means another year,well,that's doable,seems like a fair,reasonable time,a couple of years.  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

jake pogg

Quote from: Don P on June 10, 2022, 05:36:43 AM
Quote from: jake pogg on June 09, 2022, 11:51:20 PMA while back,in another thread,Don asked if I'm still happening...I answered,but not sure he got my response...


Yes, I nodded vigorously :). We had an open winter and also just started throwing tin on the roof this week, and we are not swiftwater logging. You've made amazing progress and it looks awesome, good show!


 
Don,I once again want to thank you for your time,and all the most valuable advice.
The lid has finally gotten completed today(minus a couple details like hip ridge flashing that are still being delivered).
Finished about an hour before a thunderstorm,and a torrential downpour.
It's an undescribable feeling sitting inside ones Dry jobsite,for the first time,listening to the rain beat on the steel roofing...
That Dutch gable was the only manner in which I could resolve problems on the front of house.
But I think it all worked out,even providing the place for the electrical weatherhead to be there under the gable,vs going up through the eave overhang where the snow often tears it off as it slides down in spring...
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

Don P

That looks awesome! I can't recall giving you much valuable advice but its been fun to watch.
It is a good feeling to get dried in. Shelter, its primal stuff.

We got called in on one, it's been too long to remember but a dutch gable was the solution on that one too. I think it looks really sharp.

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