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Author Topic: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?  (Read 2075 times)

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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2021, 12:47:21 AM »
Could up put up a link to the type of material you are talking about?


This stuff right here:https://www.loghomestore.com/product-category/sealants-and-chinking/insulation-wool/wool-rope-insulation/

And i hear you on synthetic goops and putties,i'd prefer to not mess with them if reasonable alternative was practical.
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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2021, 01:00:59 AM »
P.S.

Looking up that wool chinking this has popped up:
Amazon.com: Sioux Chief Brown Oakum (963-15PK2): Garden & Outdoor

Seems kinda weird-$23 per lb?...(not that i've any earthly idea of how far oakum would go in an average log seam...).

By sheer accident the gal i'm building for has come up with,completely out of the blue, a roll of hemp/manila cordage.
It's a 1/4"(so about 3/8" dia),3-strand twisted stuff,and looks about Ideal for the outside seams that i'm ending up with...
I may try an experiment,but maybe wait another course or two,to give the logs above some mass to counteract the forces of wedging this stuff in there.

Wonder if such oakum-ish stuff was also soaked in oil,or ...? It'd make a good matrix to hold something oily or sticky...
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2021, 08:08:44 AM »
To see a large number of re-located old hewn log buildings in one spot, visit- The Museum of Appalachian, just off I-75 in Clinton, TN just N of Knoxville, TN.
It was established by John Rice Irwin some years back. He essentially rescued many old log buildings, barns, homes etc., and placed them on the property. Most all represent superior original craftsmanship and have been setup using hand rived shingles, old style mud chinking and have rived rail fences around them with livestock inside. There is a museum building full of Appalachian cultural items which is very well worth your time besides the outdoor items.
We used to visit yearly for the October Fall Festival which had days full of music, sorghum mill, fence making, apple butter, etc. displays, crafts booths and food, but now discontinued. Over the years I met and enjoyed the many people who came each fall to help put it on-many are gone now along with their skill sets they displayed. An old sawmill was operated each year during the festival onsite too.
There's still a restaurant on site with a retail store still operating.

From my many visits there it seems that the old mud chinking is fairly durable?

Check out their website: Home - The Museum Of Appalachia to see the place.
 
Just down the road from my home here in KY the Daniel Boone NF has a smaller setup of some old farmstead buildings at the Gladie Visitor Center, near Stanton, KY. other than the interpretive main bldg, the buildings were moved in from the NF off of old farmsteads and fully restored. I used that location to provide gifted & talented kids from my school with programs related to their culture and brought in local arts & crafts people, plus myself and a few other school staff. Neat place, especially if ya like old buildings! 
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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2021, 09:21:55 AM »
To see a large number of re-located old hewn log buildings in one spot, visit- The Museum of Appalachian, just off I-75 in Clinton, TN just N of Knoxville, TN. It was established by John Rice Irwin some years back. He essentially rescued many old log buildings, barns, homes etc., and placed them on the property. Most all represent superior original craftsmanship and have been setup using hand rived shingles, old style mud chinking and have rived rail fences around them with livestock inside. There is a museum building full of Appalachian cultural items which is very well worth your time besides the outdoor items.


That sounds like a Wonderful place,how i'd have loved to visit there...Especially if one was to ever try to build in this style...Sounds like an incredibly valuable resource.
(i've met a man once,long ago,who built like that commercially,(in a small way,with just his wife as crew);i believeve he said he spaced everything to where the timbers rested on a 2" thick polystyrene foam,then that space got screened and chinked).
  
And separate Thank you for participating in hands-on educational programs.I don't believe there's anything more valid or important than the passing on of old understanding of materials,through use of hand-tools and other ways.
I've done a little of that too,as the occasions came up,mostly forging,and most often for the young...
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2021, 11:45:12 AM »
;i believeve he said he spaced everything to where the timbers rested on a 2" thick polystyrene foam,then that space got screened and chinked).
  

I had thought of doing something similar to that as well.  I doubted the Styrofoam could hold up to the weight of the cabin above without crushing long term.  So then I thought I could put wooden blocks the same thickness as the foam along the length of the logs.  But then I still need to account for tapering shrinkage of the logs and leaving room for chinking would mean the strips are a ways back and would maybe cause the logs to be more likely to tip outward.
By the time I gave it some real thought I figured it got so complicated it wasn't worth bothering with.  On the bright side it would allow me to get by with 3 or 4 less rows of logs because of the added thickness of the Styrofoam.

Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2021, 11:55:41 AM »
Is there a reason other than look you are hiding your butt joints where the ends of two logs come together not at a corner?

My main plan is to avoid butt joints as much as possible.  I have about a dozen full length logs for below and above doors and windows and I hope the short logs will work in the smaller spaces between the doors and windows.  But I still figure I may have as many as 20-30 butt joints.   I plan to stagger them so they don't end up near each other.  Other than that I plan to just spike them together and leave them exposed and eventually chink that gap as well.

Offline kantuckid

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2021, 05:58:37 PM »
I have a few butt joints in my home and never an issue other than if the builder doesn't like to see them when finished. They are always staggered and always not where an opening needs several logs for support or nearby an opening edge. 

I saw an interesting ad on FB in MI. The seller/producer had white cedar in natural round, hand peeled logs, ~10"dia original, that had a double T&G on them. No price given but would take trailer load to me and ~750-800k down here one way. I don't suppose EWC is any more resistant than ERC in the round? 
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Offline Don P

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2021, 10:39:21 PM »
I'm not understanding how you can have a molded T&G on a hand peeled random width timber ???. No sapwood is decay resistant. That is pretty big for northern white cedar.

The logs in an Appalachian chink style are full length but it is not uncommon to see wood blocks between logs helping to support the logs. Usually when I've run into old clay chinking it has been home to various critters where the old slack lime/ river sand chinking was not a hospitable home for them.

The backer rod here was organic  :D. You can see the remnants of the first clay chinking... Now some folks would call the corn cob the chinking and the clay the daubing, so we nicknamed this one cob and daub. The white crumbles are from the next remodel with lime/sand chinking made with a "hot mix" of unslaked freshly burnt lime, lots of pieces of unslaked course limestone in it. The final rechinking was from the 70's in modern mortar, poorly detailed, it funneled in and trapped water, by '02 there was lots of damage.


 

I think old time oakum for boatbuilding was treated with thinned pine tar for both stickum and preservative. At least on the decks it formed a dam in the cracks, then hot pine tar was poured in each seam.

If you plane to regain bearing now the logs will shrink more as they dry but there will be less overall gapping. One thing most folks don't think about is that shrinkage begins at the fiber saturation point. The entire amount of shrinkage happens between around 28%, the FSP, and whatever the equilibrium moisture content ends up being. And then it is common for folks to think about the FSP as something that happens to the wood all at once, it is a cell by cell thing. The outer shell may be well below FSP while the core is green as a gourd. When the core begins to shrink there is a stress reversal, the core that was in compression goes into tension. Dry wood is about twice as strong as green, so even though there is a stress reversal within the timber the stronger dry shell resists most of that reversal.
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2021, 07:57:58 AM »
Obviously I miss-spoke on the hand peeled cedar being milled as well cause they wouldn't feed into a machine that way. I looked at the picture a bit too fast. :D 
The guy has 12" EWC raw logs and selling 10" & 8" milled logs that he apparently makes himself. The guy shows half round, milled corner notches.
In my own experience red cedar used outdoors is a mixed bag exposure wise. The concrete spring box where we got or home water supply for over 30 years had a ERC heartwood top covered in newsprint alu sheets that stayed perpetually wet and still intact. For the outdoor, exposed deck I built on my timber frame LR addition- I used ERC hand peeled poles as rustic railings and it was rotting away and removed within only a few years. It had the rustic look I was after but simply didn't last even when used as railings.
Corn cobs for backers sounds real inviting to critters. Those old builders just did with what was at hand and had very few mfg type materials other than a sawmill board. An old farm house we rented for 6+ years had a footlocker sized wooden crate in an old chicken house that was full of old bent nails-maybe 75 pounds of them. Makes you love store bought stuff to build with.

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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2021, 09:15:17 AM »
If you plane to regain bearing now the logs will shrink more as they dry but there will be less overall gapping. One thing most folks don't think about is that shrinkage begins at the fiber saturation point. The entire amount of shrinkage happens between around 28%, the FSP, and whatever the equilibrium moisture content ends up being. And then it is common for folks to think about the FSP as something that happens to the wood all at once, it is a cell by cell thing. The outer shell may be well below FSP while the core is green as a gourd. When the core begins to shrink there is a stress reversal, the core that was in compression goes into tension. Dry wood is about twice as strong as green, so even though there is a stress reversal within the timber the stronger dry shell resists most of that reversal.


This is Very important stuff,and put very well,too.I stared at it last night after work trying to internalize it and apply somehow but failed,so far(for "free" time i've only a few minutes at night before tipping over and a few over the first cup of coffee,the rest of my thinking has to be done during the duller phases of carving them logs...).

When i check the weather on internet i often note Ambient humidity,in winter it often ranges from upper 60-ies to lower-/mid -80-ies.

Inside,in a Log,woodstove-heated home...i dunno...Want to say that i've noticed,when visiting friends with that electronic Temp/Humidity?et c. readout thingy on the wall somewhere in mid/upper 30-ies.

I don't own a moisture meter,and with heavy section timbers or logs it's weird anyway...I hear that you can drive a couple of 8d galvies in and put the electrodes to them,but never tried that...

I mostly build sopping green,as in go logging,come back and start building.
That place 8 years ago,8" two-sided used on the Vertical&scribed,shrank enough on the inside to break the Perma-chink in places(across the middle of compound,the bonding held to wood).
On the outside the scribe-lines remain tight.

In regards to planing:I'm about to start doing so.Just finished the 3rd course,and the twist in some timbers will necessitate knocking the top surfaces down.
However,i can't very well conceive even the planing tgo eliminate that outward-sloping deal,i've 150'+ a course,6"+ wide surface area,it seems like an insane amount of work...   
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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2021, 09:48:16 AM »
Is there a reason other than look you are hiding your butt joints where the ends of two logs come together not at a corner?


Joe,the answer to that is kinda right there in the question:When we try to do our best to avoid,or blend in as best we can,et c.,those joints-it's because we Feel like it's somehow not ok,right?

The building surrounding us affect us,mentally,if we like it or not,if we notice it or think about it or not.
We're visual predators,with excellent eyesight,an ability to see gazillion shades of any color and detail.
We constantly crunch visual data in our heads,with a certain effect as a result.

It Matters to us what surrounds us.Look at how highly valued a log-home is-it's not for any practical reason that people choose to live in a log or timber structure(that costs half again more to build than a frame too).

So it's just somehow not Right or something,a type of joint that stops your eye and says:"Wait a minute...trees don't do that..that line is Off,somehow..".

Having written all that psycho-babble i must add this:
(btw,i'm an entirely unschooled dolt,never made it through 7th grade,and failed to pass for GED twice...so please don't think me coming like a conceited psychologist nor any other professional,you're talking with an old,not overly bright river-rat here)


The two cross-walls that are so far entirely fake are located in the middle of the two long outside walls.Once above head-height i May start growing them out towards the center of the house,eventually capping them with a solid beam right across.So they'll together form an arch.

That beam may serve as the main support for me to put a half-story on top of this structure,it'll carry one end of floor beams that'll span from it to the back wall,breaking the joist span to allow for a good solid floor that is not overly thick(may also add that pleasant Tudor-ish feel inside underneath).

In other words these goofy cross-walls make for a significantly strong points to transfer weight,sturdy and versatile.  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
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Offline Don P

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2021, 08:38:43 PM »
 :D I wrote that after a similar day, the last foot of the dig was jackhammer and shovel work. Just off the top but fairly close, from those relative humidity numbers your equilibrium moisture content is going to want to be around 14% outside and 7% inside in winter. The tangential grain outside is going to shrink twice as much as the radial grain inside. It's looking to me like if you start out tight you won't end up too bad in the end. Great in theory, in the real world knots and abnormal grain get into the mix.

Checking, or, severe checking is the shell drying over a still green and swollen core. If the client can live cooler for the first winter till the core is shrinking that internal stress reversal will help keep checking from becoming severe, it begins pulling on the shell.

If you drive bright nails in, I suppose galvy's would work too and hook the meter to them it will read the point of lowest resistance, the wettest place along the nail, which is probably the tips. I have insulated 3" prongs that only have the metal on the tips exposed so you know where the reading is coming from as you drive them in. I can see the moisture gradient as I drive them in. I think I have an old pic in my gallery..


 
Pretty bad pic but it shows the slide hammer and probes. A couple had bought this kit and asked us to build it. The logs were cypress, supposedly kiln dried to 17%. The first few cutoffs let me know that was a lie, the core was obviously still above FSP. I didn't have to hammer the pins in far to peg the meter. Running a lag in squeezed water out, dead green. I took those pictures just in case anything happened but they were happy with it.
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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2021, 02:58:30 AM »
:D I wrote that after a similar day, the last foot of the dig was jackhammer and shovel work. Just off the top but fairly close, from those relative humidity numbers your equilibrium moisture content is going to want to be around 14% outside and 7% inside in winter. The tangential grain outside is going to shrink twice as much as the radial grain inside. It's looking to me like if you start out tight you won't end up too bad in the end. Great in theory, in the real world knots and abnormal grain get into the mix.

Checking, or, severe checking is the shell drying over a still green and swollen core. If the client can live cooler for the first winter till the core is shrinking that internal stress reversal will help keep checking from becoming severe, it begins pulling on the shell.

If you drive bright nails in, I suppose galvy's would work too and hook the meter to them it will read the point of lowest resistance, the wettest place along the nail, which is probably the tips. I have insulated 3" prongs that only have the metal on the tips exposed so you know where the reading is coming from as you drive them in. I can see the moisture gradient as I drive them in. I think I have an old pic in my gallery..

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
Pretty bad pic but it shows the slide hammer and probes. A couple had bought this kit and asked us to build it. The logs were cypress, supposedly kiln dried to 17%. The first few cutoffs let me know that was a lie, the core was obviously still above FSP. I didn't have to hammer the pins in far to peg the meter. Running a lag in squeezed water out, dead green. I took those pictures just in case anything happened but they were happy with it.

Don,the extent of your knowledge and understanding,And your ability of telling it so clearly is Outstanding.
I can't thank you enough,and want to make sure that you know that it is greatly appreciated.
(i don't understand the internet none too well,but i think these kinds of forum topics often come up in searches,and so this will benefit a very large number of people).

I'm sure you're right about the planing.
I had to plane today,finally,to  knock the twist down on two logs.
With an 1806(6 3/4") it was very fast and painless.

The scary part is that i can actually See planing All top surfaces right after the logs go in place.

Even scarier-logs can be placed/planed flat on top/inverted onto a straight surface and bottom side planed in plane with the top!:)

But it'd be a crazy amount of time and effort...

There's a forging term,a "one-armed smith",i don't know the woodworking equivalent...
In the forge working alone changes Lots,some actions require special tooling,or cannot be done at all,without a striker(or two, or five:))

Log-building site is similar,of course.I'm not building no 5000' sq. palace,but ...By my rough estimate i'll be on the walls till end of August.
That's including milling the 2+(maybe more) courses of 8" D-log that i'm missing.
That'll leave +/_ 6 weeks to mill,assemble,and set-up all roof trusses,stringers,and everything else for the roof,gable ends,the works.

The windows will be visqueen(way warmer than glass),but that tin Must go on.

Then a barrel stove gets stuck in the and-magically-i've a Shop!!!

Tons of stuff to do inside there during the winter,taking care of the interior of the logs first and foremost,but also building lots of stuff for the house.
Our tin has been paid for,and delivered by barge,our budget is now nonexistent-this is It,the siege is on!:)

Just out of pure contrariness alone i'd like to see just how much i can do inside the place with driftwood lumber alone.
Kitchen,for sure,but lots of other stuff...(in place of closets many nice Scandinavian-style blanket chests along all walls:))

My strength here is the ultimate versatility-i can mill Anything i want,and have some wonderful trees to do it with.
I just need the brain to plan it correctly,with sound strategy there're no limits.

I've all sorts of evil ideas(not necessarily plans for this house,but,who knows).Things like a edge-set&bisquited&glued 3"x3" or so flooring...
Or one like in some Swiss chalets-t&g 2x12's angled slightly fan-shape,with a central master driven in from outside,through special through-mortise in the wall...(Where it protrudes outside,you set your pot of begonias on:)...and on the wall next to it hangs a mallet for regulating your floor..). 

But,for Any of that fun-i Must get closed in before end of October.
Once you no longer capable of handling a fastener with bare fingers or -20F,is pretty much a done site...
 


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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2021, 09:26:32 AM »
 

 

Still alive,in the middle of 8th course now(out of total 12,+ the pony wall/half-story of some sort,possibly framed).

Milling my own timbers since the 5th course.
An insult to injury,as i'm finding more and more things wrong with "D-logs",and now not only have to use them but actually produce them myself(wasting all kinds of lovely round logs to do so,producing this piddly 8" of wall-height,+some ultra-low quality lumber as byproduct,for reason of cant being parallel not to heart but to one of the bark sides instead).

But the show must go on.

Working entirely by myself,a worn out old fart and a half-century old Allis Chalmers 500-series,it takes me about 4 days a course,plus a day and a half to mill enough for it;with pegging and splining(splining as i go)about a week a course.
It's raining every day now,the platform is pretty well flooded.

Due to all surfaces being planed the mold has only just began,on the outer,north-facing wall,on the outside of it.
Will eventually fight it with glycol(if it ever stops raining),or bleach of whatever strength if i must...

 

That beautiful new LT40 never came on line,still flogging a friend's old Norwood that i've abused for over 20 years now...

 

Were i a real construction company,i'd use that old Hunter S Thompson quote as the company's motto:
"When the going gets weird the weird turn pro".

Speaking of "Timberlocks" or similar "log fasteners"(in the other thread):I abhore those,and only use them in extremis.
On this project so far i punched in 14 of these,pre-drilled with a 3/8" bit(for 1/4" fastener),and countersunk a couple inches down from top surface.
Believe them to be much misused,many here rely on these as primary fastener,with woeful long-term results.Wall logs get hung up,and many buckle later...  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
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Offline kantuckid

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2021, 05:13:15 PM »
So, what stack wall fastener do you like? My home was pre-long timber screws and I used 100d, i.e., 12" x 3'8" dia common nails. I pilot drilled a 5/16" dia hole that allowed for settling later and a cutoff 6# sledge that I used today as a matter of fact. I was beating on the end of a heavy steel tube to adjust the length of my old wagon gear I bought to fabricate a 14' hay wagon ala wall logs etc. building material wagon. IN the heat last few days it was brutal, swampy humidity combo'ed with 90's temps it's about all I can stand. Your rain might be the better place?
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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2021, 08:41:21 AM »
So, what stack wall fastener do you like? My home was pre-long timber screws and I used 100d, i.e., 12" x 3'8" dia common nails. I pilot drilled a 5/16" dia hole that allowed for settling later and a cutoff 6# sledge that I used today as a matter of fact.


I thought about your question and the answer i'm afraid is "i don't know..."...

My mind is admittedly uneasy about this,yet there it is.
I've just completed the 8th course on a 40'+ x 30' building not fastening any of the logs to one another...(i've used 14 timberlocks so far,in problem locations).

I wanted to through-fasten the entire 8' of these walls with 1" dia all-thread,but didn't have the hardware at the crucial time and it's now too late.

The first course is through-fastened to the H-beam below with 1/2" all-thread,at about 4' centers,the rest of the logs are only pegged and float otherwise.

Again,i'm far from easy about this in my mind,but could not think of what else i could do.
Timberlocks are skinny and flexy,their thread flats areas are entirely wrong for soft woods such as spruce,so they contribute neither the holding power nor stiffness,but only increase the risk of logs hanging up in settling,so they were a poor choice,i felt.

I've seen some vastly superior helical fasteners in a u-tube video of a trade show/expo in Germany,but nothing like that is available anywhere i 'm capable of accessing...    
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
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Offline Don P

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2021, 11:30:11 PM »
You don't have a continuous load path and low shear strength.

Most of the D logs we did were 3/8x10 lags in a prebored countersunk hole. The timber screws hadn't taken hold yet, I think we did one and I went through a bucket of my lags. I prefer to draw things down at assembly, which is why I say dryer is better. I don't think allthread can pull a stack down as tight as I can get it layer by layer. I've also drilled as we stack and installed allthread full height. That is a more positive load path and can be set up to tighten more later. I think I would at a minimum timberlock the header row to the stacks below and then whatever rows are above that up to the rafter plate.

Predrilling the upper log for the timberlock would allow some degree of room for divergent angles. The lag hole, although 1/8" oversize doesn't allow for much of that. And then twisting or bowing logs are pinching on the holes to whatever degree as well. No free lunch  :D
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline kantuckid

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2021, 07:49:48 AM »
Don P- have you constructed a stack log wall using log construction wall jacks (as sold by log building suppliers) to allow future wall height adjustments? 
A local FT sawmill owner who also was formerly in the EWP log home business (materials and the construction too) used them in his own home. 
Many years ago I visited a kit log home in N KY that used all-thread and milled stack logs. 

jake pogg- check out Montana Log Homes | Amish Log Builders | Meadowlark Log Homes - Meadowlark Log Homes to see their version of stack log construction. They are an Amish group who build in MT commercially. They have a bit different approach than any other I've seen, especially their corners. 
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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2021, 10:25:12 AM »
Great info,Don,thank you.
Sounds like a very sound plan,to fasten the header course,i think i'll do that(and maybe the next one-which will be the last-to that).

I pre-drill the upper log for 1/4" timberlocks with a 3/8" bit,and countersick with a 1 3/8 forstener bit a couple inches down,for the large washers i use with it all.

Kantuckid,thank you;i looked at that link,and i'm sure those are sound,solid cabins,but those "butt-and-run" corners,and the random vertical joints in walls is just how folks build around here,and it's exactly what i'm going through all this trouble to avoid!:)
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
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Offline jake pogg

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Re: "Lugged" half-dovetails as cabin corner notches?
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2021, 10:35:02 AM »
 

 

I'm finally at that 11th,the header course.The first clear night in...weeks,i think,the first time i've seen the moon and the stars since May.
My perpetually-flooded platform is covered by about 1/4" of ice,the time is running out...
The mold issue,that i've been attempting to battle with ethylene glycol is getting the upper hand...Everything hangs in the balance,and with the dark and the cold looming,one feels it more urgently.
That's how it goes,for all the effort i may well end up with a tarped-down moldy ruin...
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain


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