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What size tractor will I need? How much can be done without one?

Started by fugg, November 26, 2022, 03:48:37 PM

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fugg

Hi all, I am looking at buying a Norwood HD38, and need advice on sizing a tractor to match.

I want to be able to slab siberian elm.  A green Siberian Elm at 36" diameter and 10' long comes out to about 4000lbs. (Correct?)

I'm not seeing many (if any) tractors that I could afford with that sort of lifting capacity.

How much could I manage without a tractor at all? 
How much could I manage with a compact tractor (30-60hp)
Finally, how large of a tractor would I need to be able to fully utilize the capability of the HD38, from my guess-timations, I would need something massive (and therefore expensive $$$)
Looking for lightly used year old mill, tractor, a bigger truck, pre-cut stickers, and a magic sharpener.

fugg

I've seen some interesting things done with log arches and winches that might help a compact tractor to move around logs that it otherwise wouldn't be able to lift with the FEL.  Not sure how viable it really is
Looking for lightly used year old mill, tractor, a bigger truck, pre-cut stickers, and a magic sharpener.

SawyerTed

I sometimes drag and nudge logs around with a 50 hp 2 wheel drive tractor with a loader.  It would handle a 4,000 pound log with a log arch just fine.  If your mill has a log lift then you could get by with a 50 ish hp tractor. My 50 hp tractor will lift 1,800 pounds but going anywhere with it can be challenging.   :D

Look for used rough terrain forklifts.  We bought one a while back for $13,500.  It was an older machine and ugly (DuPont overhaul) but in good condition.  The only thing we did to it was put a battery in it and replaced a couple of cracked windows.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Ianab

Log arch is your friend when it comes to bigger logs (or small logs with lighter machinery). Providing you aren't on steep ground any tractor can TOW much more than it can lift. 

Sure it's a bit more messing about than a machine that can just grab and move the log, and you sill need a way to get the log onto the band mill, but that's what hydraulic loader arms are for. Or ramps and winch if you are on a budget. 

You know the old saying? "Cheap, Good or Fast, pick any 2?" Log arch and smaller tractor is cheaper, but still good. It's not as fast as a wheel loader with ~6,000 lb lift of course, but that's not cheap. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Wlmedley

If the logs are that heavy and you are cutting slabs.How much are the slabs going to weigh?That's what I would be worried about .Probably more than can be handled by hand and they will need to be stacked and stickered.
Bill Medley WM 126-14hp , Husky372xp ,MF1020 ,Homemade log arch,Yamaha Grizzly 450,GMC2500,Oregon log splitter

charles mann

I just CSMed a red oak into 3" thick slabs, 31" on the big and 24" on the small end, 11' long. My 2016 70hp kubota has a 3000# front lift capacity and that log was at max capacity. I was able to curl the forks but not pick it up. I backed it off my trailer, lowered it and got the log into position and lowered the log onto some dunnage to get it off the ground. I would estimate 200-250 lbs for the slabs. 

That tractor when i purchased it was $39,000, and prices have only gone up. 

Google a youtuber, matt cremona. He built a wide cut mill and a car hauler style trailer that he outfitted with a log arch he built. He would back up to his mill and use a winch to either push the log off the trailer and onto the mill, and then finally got a winch for his sawmill and would winch the logs off and onto the mill. 


He now has a jlg rough terrain telehandler forklift to do his log handling. 

An arch can do many tasks, so dont discount the arch. As wlmedley said, and i will agree with the wt. of the slabs, you'll need 2-3 people to handle them, or a 25-50hp tractor. 
Temple, Tx
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Magicman

 

 
Sometime older backhoes are available that can easily handle the heavy stuff that an agriculture tractor won't budge. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

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charles mann

@Magicman 
Where did you get those log spikes/tong ends you have buried in the end of that log? 
Temple, Tx
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Magicman

Those are my Magic Hooks that you see mentioned here quite often.


 
I made mine from two broken logging tongs.  I split the eye, inserted the ring, and then welded it back.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

charles mann

Quote from: Magicman on November 26, 2022, 05:40:54 PM
Those are my Magic Hooks that you see mentioned here quite often.


 
I made mine from two broken logging tongs.  I split the eye, inserted the ring, and then welded it back.
Iv seen them mentioned, never dug in to far to find out more. But since i couldnt find anything that would work for me, i was thinking of buying tongs just to cut them aprat for the individual tongs like you did, or was going to build some out of 4140, weld a plate to hammer on, heat treat just the spikes, then temper them. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Southside

Unless you need a PTO or 3 point hitch I would look at industrial equipment over AG equipment. Most AG loader tracrors were built with the thought of moving a round bale of hay, and not doing that all day, every day. The loaders, hydraulics, and front ends are not built to be dealing with max weight logs all the time. Yes, you can do it, yes some will spec a tractor to handle the weight, but if you are looking at used that's not going to be the case. 

My log handling now is all done via a Lull telehandler, hands down it kicks the butt of any of my tractors when it comes to lifting and carrying a load. With a little modification I have two hydraulic remotes at the front and a Quick Tack head, so it will hook to and run any skid steer attachment, and run it 20' in the air. 
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stavebuyer

Not ideal but life is full of compromise. All tractors will lift significantly more with little chance of damage on the 3pt hitch end rather than the FEL. 3pt hitch forks with a hydraulic top link for tilt can do wonders on a 50hp class machine. 2wd will lift every bit as good from the back as 4wd.

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Wlmedley

I agree.My small tractor is all I have ever had.I have moved up to 30" x12' logs with it and log arch and 3 point hitch has always picked one end up.With a set of rear forks on a larger tractor it would surprise you what it would lift.Older forklifts we're mostly farm tractors turned around backwards with forks lifting from rear axle.
Bill Medley WM 126-14hp , Husky372xp ,MF1020 ,Homemade log arch,Yamaha Grizzly 450,GMC2500,Oregon log splitter

Larry

I bought a piggyback forklift 12 years ago for $7,000.  It will turn on a dime, lifts 6,000 pounds to 12', forks go in/out, gets good traction off road, doesn't tear up the ground, and has side shift.  I think for the money, it way out performs any machine out there for sawmill use.

Besides the ability to lift big logs I needed a machine that would lift stacks of lumber.  I stack as I saw.  When I sticker stack, it is normally 600 board foot.  When flat stacking for custom sawing I might make the stack bigger....  It is the perfect match to load my Nyle L53 kiln as I can put in a full load with one lift.



Around the mill it doesn't get hardly any hours and other than fluid changes the only maintenance has been a couple of batteries.
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fugg

Quote from: SawyerTed on November 26, 2022, 04:13:59 PM
I sometimes drag and nudge logs around with a 50 hp 2 wheel drive tractor with a loader.  It would handle a 4,000 pound log with a log arch just fine.  If your mill has a log lift then you could get by with a 50 ish hp tractor. My 50 hp tractor will lift 1,800 pounds but going anywhere with it can be challenging.   :D

Look for used rough terrain forklifts.  We bought one a while back for $13,500.  It was an older machine and ugly (DuPont overhaul) but in good condition.  The only thing we did to it was put a battery in it and replaced a couple of cracked windows.  


Those rough terrain forklifts look real promising! From the quick search i did they seem like a good value, some have some really huge lifting capacity!  cut_tree
Looking for lightly used year old mill, tractor, a bigger truck, pre-cut stickers, and a magic sharpener.

Ianab

Quote from: Wlmedley on November 26, 2022, 04:44:29 PM
If the logs are that heavy and you are cutting slabs.How much are the slabs going to weigh?That's what I would be worried about .Probably more than can be handled by hand and they will need to be stacked and stickered.
True. but a even a smaller tractor can move a ~300 lb green slab easy enough. I think the OP does need some sort of machinery, but it probably doesn't need to be able to pick up a ~4,000 lb log. 

The industrial machinery IS better for material handling, because that's what they were primarily designed for. Farm tractors are more multi-purpose. They can be used to move stuff, but their capacity is more limited. But they are more common and have many more uses around a farm. If you can only justify one machine for multi-purposes, they are a good option. Like a small tractor and log arch can haul a large log 1/2 a mile or even down a back country road. 

Personally my mill is lighter and easier to move than most logs, so I go to the logs, and can mill 36" logs without machinery. But given the option, a decent farm tractor does make life a lot easier. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Iwawoodwork

You have received good advice on looking beyond the AG tractors. The industrial type tractors/skip loaders front ens are a lot heavier built, also look at the smaller articulating front loaders as those can be purchased at times quite reasonable also as wes previously mentioned the off-road forklift both ridged frame and articulate frame can be found on auction sites going for a reasonable price, I think most any of the above machines will be much more durable than an ag tractor unless you plan to spend $$$$$ for a custom built  unit.

fugg

Quote from: Larry on November 26, 2022, 09:46:39 PM
I bought a piggyback forklift 12 years ago for $7,000.  It will turn on a dime, lifts 6,000 pounds to 12', forks go in/out, gets good traction off road, doesn't tear up the ground, and has side shift.  I think for the money, it way out performs any machine out there for sawmill use.

Besides the ability to lift big logs I needed a machine that would lift stacks of lumber.  I stack as I saw.  When I sticker stack, it is normally 600 board foot.  When flat stacking for custom sawing I might make the stack bigger....  It is the perfect match to load my Nyle L53 kiln as I can put in a full load with one lift.



Around the mill it doesn't get hardly any hours and other than fluid changes the only maintenance has been a couple of batteries.


Very nice, that looks like perfect. Compact, doesnt need a lot of room to operate, which im imagining is very handy when getting urban logs.

I wonder, how often do you guys go through the effort of estimating log weight?  I'll bet many of you could guess by looking at it, but I'll have to be keeping track
Looking for lightly used year old mill, tractor, a bigger truck, pre-cut stickers, and a magic sharpener.

charles mann

Another thing to look at, esp looking outside the ag tractor, what equipment do you have to move that equipment? 

My first ag tractor was a 35hp kubota, purchased a 12k gvw with 9k load capacity bumper pull. That was fine for my 35 and 50 ho tractors. My 70 hp with bucket and shredder put me a lil over the 9k capacity. I still use the bp to haul the tractor short distances but for any long distance, i feel safer and stay legal by using my 24k 30+5 gn. 

When looking at your log handling equipment, dont forget to see if your tck and trailer can haul the equip without having to buy another tck and or trailer just to haul the log handler. 

If your plans are that it never leaves your property, then paying someone a 1 time hauling fee would work out good for you. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

Quote from: fugg on November 26, 2022, 10:37:04 PM

Very nice, that looks like perfect. Compact, doesnt need a lot of room to operate, which im imagining is very handy when getting urban logs.

I wonder, how often do you guys go through the effort of estimating log weight?  I'll bet many of you could guess by looking at it, but I'll have to be keeping track
I have to do the estimation when looking at logs/trees to figure out if taking my tractor and gn will keep me around my 17,400 capacity plus room for both tractor and logs, or do i take just my gn and use my log arch. 
Downside to my arch, i havent figured out how to stack logs on top of each other vs. having only running 1 tier of logs. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

rusticretreater

I have a small kubota BX25, front end loader/backhoe, only 23 HP.  I put a quick change on it and also have a grapple.  I can lift smaller logs,  8ft x 20 inches though I have wrangled a 16 footer w/ smaller diameters.  I can move huge logs with my long arch and trailing dolley including 20 footers.  I can move logs around with the grapple and roll them pretty easy.  The grapple allows me to make nice neat piles of logs too.  I have forks to put on my FEL but they are not all that great.  They do get the job done.

A forklift dedicated to just doing the lumber mill operations would be great.  But to make the money go further, a multipurpose tractor might be the ticket.  I know I have to go multipurpose.  A larger FEL in the same configuration would be ideal.

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fugg

Quote from: charles mann on November 26, 2022, 10:45:09 PM
Another thing to look at, esp looking outside the ag tractor, what equipment do you have to move that equipment?

My first ag tractor was a 35hp kubota, purchased a 12k gvw with 9k load capacity bumper pull. That was fine for my 35 and 50 ho tractors. My 70 hp with bucket and shredder put me a lil over the 9k capacity. I still use the bp to haul the tractor short distances but for any long distance, i feel safer and stay legal by using my 24k 30+5 gn.

When looking at your log handling equipment, dont forget to see if your tck and trailer can haul the equip without having to buy another tck and or trailer just to haul the log handler.

If your plans are that it never leaves your property, then paying someone a 1 time hauling fee would work out good for you.
I actually can not decide whether to go portable or not with the mill.  I really like the idea of having a stationary electric mill. I had an epiphany that I need to go skip the mill for now, and focus on getting the logs here. If I can't move them from there to here, there's no point in having a mill. (duh) 
I'm picturing that I could spend the next year getting some log handling equipment together and just store these logs in my yard.  

If I'm able to move and store large logs here, how high should I sticker them off the ground?  And how long could I keep them in the yard before they start to deteriorate?  Multiple years?

Does anyone have experience getting urban trees?  There are many of these large elms that were downed last year in a wind storm.  I imagine showing up to someone's door and offering to buy and remove their downed trees could have some success. But getting them for free would be even better.  How should I approach that issue?  I don't want to go around asking for free downed trees, many many families heat with wood around here and might be insulting to just ask for the log. 
Looking for lightly used year old mill, tractor, a bigger truck, pre-cut stickers, and a magic sharpener.

beenthere

You could get the logs and being in NM, put water sprinklers on the logs to keep them wet so they last longer and don't crack from drying out. But water may be a limiting variable in NM too. Doubt storing logs is a good plan for your endeavor, but don't know what you have available either. 
south central Wisconsin
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Ianab

Log storage is problematic. How long depends on the species and climate, but locally large borers will be into pine logs in months. More durable logs can still be worth milling after several years, but generally it's best to mill and dry as soon as possible. 

I guess you need to decide on what your initial operation is going to be like. If you intend to collect urban logs, how are you going to pick them up? There are various designs for log loading frames to winch logs onto a trailer. Maybe that would be more use? 

This is the sort of "urban salvage milling" I've done. No way to get heavy machinery into this guys backyard, but we got these logs milled with manpower, levers, jacks and at one point a tow strop hooked to my little Toyota. 
Dusted off the mill.. in Sawmills and Milling

Either way, the mill is only a part of the operation. You can certainly go mobile and take the mill to the logs. Assume that anyone that can collect a stack of logs also has a means to move them? But if logs are coming to you, then YOU need a way to move them around your site. AND you need a site to work from.

Magicman for example only saws mobile, log and slab handling are up to the log owner. He "saws em and leaves em", which is a perfectly good business model. I'm only sawing as a hobby, and have a super light weight setup. This is my mill ready to roll, and if the log owner has a tractor to assist, that's a BIG bonus. 
Tasmanian Blackwood in Sawmills and Milling

So there is no "one size fits all" answer. What do YOU need for your operation?
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

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