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What size tractor will I need? How much can be done without one?

Started by fugg, November 26, 2022, 03:48:37 PM

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Magicman

Quote from: fugg on November 26, 2022, 10:37:04 PMI wonder, how often do you guys go through the effort of estimating log weight?
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customsawyer

I'm going to offer a little bit of different advice. I grew up in Monte Vista, CO. just north of you. We had a good number of those same elms that you're referring to in our area. I will suggest you start looking for some better quality logs to make this venture more successful than those elm yard trees. I'm not saying you can't cut a few of them but the amount of movement in elm lumber, during the drying, can be a problem and makes for a lot of wasted lumber. It will be difficult for you to control the drying rate in your area of the world and this won't help much with elm.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
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stavebuyer

I will also mention a small machine has some advantages like cleaning up in tight quarters. Forks are essential around a sawmill but so is a bucket. 

alan gage

I haven't read any of the other responses so apologies if I'm just parroting everyone else but, depending on what else you might need the machine for,  I think you would be better suited with a skidloader or fork lift.  

Personally I had a lot of other uses for a skidloader and also needed something that could be used off site so that's what I went with.

When I first got my mill I was using my father's 70hp Kubota a quickly realized how limited the lift capacity was (2000 lbs).

The skidloader I found has a tipping limit of a little over 4000 pounds and even that has often not been able to pick up even 8' white oak logs of large diameter but it handles most of what I needed and has been invaluable for other projects. 

The tractor was scary when approaching the maximum lift.  The skidloader feels much more solid and stable with heavy loads and when you do overload it the nose just drops straight down rather than trying to flip over on its side. 

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

fugg

Quote from: customsawyer on November 27, 2022, 07:38:36 AM
I'm going to offer a little bit of different advice. I grew up in Monte Vista, CO. just north of you. We had a good number of those same elms that you're referring to in our area. I will suggest you start looking for some better quality logs to make this venture more successful than those elm yard trees. I'm not saying you can't cut a few of them but the amount of movement in elm lumber, during the drying, can be a problem and makes for a lot of wasted lumber. It will be difficult for you to control the drying rate in your area of the world and this won't help much with elm.
Small world - I lived in Monte Vista near Ski-Hi stadium for a number of years, I just recently moved.
That really stinks that the elm isn't a quality log to work with, its absolutely everywhere, and they're so large as well.  I just did some googling about other people trying to dry Siberian elm, and they tend to agree with you.  Lots of people having trouble with movement like you've said. It does show some people still go through the effort, with stack weighting and a specific schedule.  Still, he says he has degrade losses. And I'd still have to battle with how dry it is here. I'm still stubborn enough to try, but I'm picturing myself learning the same lesson you are trying to tell me, hah.

So then, I need to figure out the other valuable logs in my area.  The next best thing I can think of are the junipers, some russian olive, but beyond that I can only think of fir, spruce, pine, and aspen.  There are some other species of trees that have been planted in folks yards that come down, saw a nice silver maple get taken down on the job site two weeks ago, but those are few and far between.  There is an established local mill that does rough sawn lumber for local builders, but they don't do anything other than the fir, spruce, pine.  That's why I was hoping to be able to do something different, like live edge slabs, so I don't have to compete with them.

Looking for lightly used year old mill, tractor, a bigger truck, pre-cut stickers, and a magic sharpener.

KWH

Larry, thanks for the post of the piggyback forklift. I have thought about getting one. It would be easier to move lumber stacks then our farm tractors that always seem to be used right be for I get on it. I would like to see him pack silage with it.

scsmith42

I've used farm tractors with loaders, skid steers, backhoe's, telehandlers and large articulating loaders around my mill.

Personally I'd stay away from a farm tractor due to limited lifting capability, difficulty in seeing the forks, and easy to tip if the load is high.

I'd size your machine to the maximum log size that you will handle.  If your logs are 3,500 lbs and under, a skid or compact track loader may be your optimum machine.  It will allow you to easily switch between a grapple rake (for log handling), forks (for lumber handling), and bucket (for sawdust removal).  If you have a dually and a 40' trailer, you can transport both sawmill and skid loader to a remote job site in one trip.

Telehandlers are great pieces of equipment for lumber and log handling, but not as versatile as a skid loader.  One nice feature is the side tilt (which skid loaders usually lack).
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

charles mann

Quote from: scsmith42 on November 28, 2022, 11:55:20 AM
 If you have a dually and a 40' trailer, you can transport both sawmill and skid loader to a remote job site in one trip.
Which then could require a CDL, depending which state an ag license may be acceptable but with limitations, as in tx has a 150 radial mile restriction. 
Additionally, if a full cdl is required per state and or federal law, it now requires attending a cdl driving/training school under the new (feb 7 2022) fmca regulation change. 
I got pulled over for running 70 in a 60 pulling my dozer with my trailer tagged as ag/farm and my tck tagged with disabled vet plates. I didnt have a cdl and the wt. and measure trooper said i needed at a minimum of an ag non commercial cdl bc my trailer was a 24k gvwr. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

aigheadish

Larry, that is a great buy! I don't have a need for one at my place but I'd still love to have one! That sideways driving part is incredible. They delivered 40 foot long barn trusses to my house with one of those and he just turned the wheels 90 degrees and came straight on down the driveway. Too cool. 

I move logs with the backhoe, 95hp, but I do a lot of other junk in the yard too so that was the right choice for me. I don't saw the logs though, too much, and not on a mill. So far, with the over the bucket forks (the kind on a bar that grabs onto some hooks welded to the top of the loader bucket, not the garbagey clamp-on forks that I bent up on my first use) I've moved some pretty substantial logs without any trouble. If I was running a mill I'd go with an off road forklift, but missing a loader bucket to move sawdust would still be an issue.  
New Holland LB75b, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Husqvarna GTH52XLS, Hammerhead 250, Honda VTX1300 for now and probably for sale (let me know if you are interested!)

Southside

The Ag / non Class A CDL is a good option if your state allows it. I have one in KS that lets me drive a semi with grain to the elevator. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

charles mann

Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 01:38:34 PM
The Ag / non Class A CDL is a good option if your state allows it. I have one in KS that lets me drive a semi with grain to the elevator.
Im trying to get my wife to get her ag class B so she can drive my 5 ton 936 crane truck so i can pull my gn with my dually and we can load felled logs in a much faster method than a log arch. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Southside

Let me know how that works out for you. I am still trying to get my wife to drive the dually.  :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

charles mann

Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 05:31:39 PM
Let me know how that works out for you. I am still trying to get my wife to drive the dually.  :D
She got the writtens out of the way but i was having a brake dragging issue on the back rear axle, then my low air pressure warning buzzer wouldnt shut up, troubleshooting pointed to replacing the buzz box, but @ $400, i just disconnected the cannon plug. I need to source a civi unit in 24v dc. 
With those issues, i figured the driving test place wouldnt pass the tck. Since ag class a/b doesnt require a driving school, the wife is waiting till i get the issues resolved then she'll retake the writtens and then the driving test. 
She will be in for a surprise when she realizes 55-60 is max mph, she will have to actually drive it, not just point and go, it rides stupid rough, no heat or a/c and no bluetooth radio with touch screen. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Southside

Never thought of myself as being clairvoyant, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I know what the future holds.  :D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

charles mann

Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Never thought of myself as being clairvoyant, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I know what the future holds.  :D
well, i'll at least get her to drive from hm to logs (150 miles one way) then back. but she probably won't ever drive it again. i gave her the choice, get her a and she can pull the gn, maxed @24,000 lbs (probably a few 1000 over) and i can drive the 5 ton, and she gladly accepted the getting the b license. she thought it was cool to drive it in the hay field and back hm, all 400' to the house.
I'm betting it'll go over as well as a fart in church on hot day and no a/c
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

scsmith42

Quote from: Southside on November 28, 2022, 05:31:39 PM
Let me know how that works out for you. I am still trying to get my wife to drive the dually.  :D
Wow, I guess that I got lucky because my wife has her own dually!  Now getting her to use it to help me, that's another story....
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

jpassardi

If you're looking for max bang for the buck, I agree with Magicman - it's tough to beat a backhoe. If you can afford 4WD, even better. I fabbed hooks for my CAT so I can drive up and grab the forks when needed.
LT15 W/Trailer, Log Turner, Power Feed & up/down
CAT 416 Backhoe W/ Self Built Hydraulic Thumb and Forks
Husky 372XP, 550XPG, 60, 50,   WM CBN Sharpener & Setter
40K # Excavator, Bobcat 763, Kubota RTV 900
Orlan Wood Gasification Boiler -Slab Disposer

Bostonstrong

Lots of great advice in this thread.....

I just want to put out there that lifting capability is less about HP and more about hydraulics.  I have a Kubota L2501 (25hp) that has the exact same FEL and 3pt lift capacity as the L3901 (39hp).  The reason that much larger HP machines can lift more is that their hydro flow is greater.  That being said, I have lifted logs much heavier than the listed capacity simply by keeping the logs very low to the ground via shorter lifting straps hooked onto bucket hooks and rolling the bucket back as far as it goes to get the log more under the pivot points.  I also have a 700lb PTO chipper that I keep on the 3 pt as ballast and have never had major issues as long as I go slow and take my time.  
I can certainly imagine that for logs in the 4K range, construction/commercial equip would be the way to go, especially if that will be the rule rather than the exception.  Just be ready to get your ground torn up quite a bit if you are on soil versus stone or pavement.  
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back."
G.K. Chesterton

Southside

Buddy of mine just got back his LS  55 HP tractor that he broke by overloading the bucket using a heavy counterweight on the back as ballast. Had it teeter tottering in 4WD backing up when the rear tires came down, destroyed internal drive axle, planetary gear, etc. 

Yes, you can do it, just be prepared to pay to play. 

His wife can get a bit excited, I can't imagine having to explain that to her. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

123maxbars

Modern day hydraulics on new tractors are pretty impressive. I run two tractors at my mill. A 75hp for logs and a 55hp for lumber off the mill. Key is I think to know the weight limits and don't do anything stupid like trying to pick up a thousand bf of green oak boards. I have to make my stacks smaller for this reason but it's manageable and I am in no hurry. If your not high production or sawing over size logs a tractor will find a good place in your tool kit. 
Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
Woodmizer LT70 Super Wide, Nyle L53 and 200 kiln, too many other machines to list.
outofthewoods
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KenMac

Very true, Nathan. I've seen most of your videos and you use your equipment wisely. I have checked ag tractors' specs and have noticed that Mahindra brand tractors seem to have more lift capacity than most others of comparable HP. Not saying that would be my first choice since they have had other issues, but if I ran across one at the right price I'd consider it. I can fix most things if I put my mind to it.
Cook's AC3667t, Cat Claw sharpener, Dual tooth setter, and Band Roller, Kubota B26 TLB, Takeuchi TB260C

caveman

I agree with Nathan on sizing your work to your tractor.  We stack our wood on pallets to dry.  With 1x, we stack 16' lumber only seven layers, on 8', we stack 13 layers.  With the telehandler, we could stack a lot higher but then it limits us to moving with one machine.  We just move more than one pallet at a time when using the telehandler.

The 3pt hitch and forks will likely lift more than the tractors front hydraulics.  This might be a good option for moving oversized logs.  Until a few months ago, we moved logs and lumber with only a tractor (for the past 12-13 years).  Our tractor is a Kubota M7040 (about 70 hp), but as far as hydraulic capability goes, the 50-70's are the same).  There are other tractors of the same hp that will lift a lot more.
Caveman

Ventryjr

Not sure in that species of elm weight.  But I have a 75hp skid steer that's rated for 2800lbs.   And I've carried 16' 36" hemlock logs before.  A little tippy but it loaded them on to the log mill.  Good luck! 
-2x belsaw m14s and a Lane circle mill.

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