Planting new trees for harvest - spruce or pine

mjeselskis · December 19, 2011, 07:14:10 PM

As I've mentioned before, I've got a couple acres that I would like to dedicate to a future harvest. I was planning on white and red pine, but recently forester that I know recommended white spruce. He said the spruce is more resistant to common insect and disease problems, and grows quickly.

From a financial perspective, is Spruce going to pay off as quickly, or quicker than pine? Is spruce usually harvested for sawlogs, studwood, or just pulp? I don't have any experience with it.

Any recommendations?

SwampDonkey · December 19, 2011, 10:35:04 PM

Eastern spruce (red, white, black) has bigger returns than red pine in the smaller diameters. It's harvested for pulp, saw timber and veneer. That being said red pine grows quicker, and the money is in telephone poles and maybe log homes. But you need big wood. Spruce you can start thinning for returns in 30-40 years, depending on soil. Red pine doesn't seem to suffer from insect problems much in this region, white pine does (weevils) and rust disease. Spruce is not exempt, there are budworm, luper and sawfly. This past summer they had to start a spray program for sawfly in southern NB. Norway spruce, a non native, gets weeviled.

The attack:

The recovery:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17457.60.html

rocksnstumps · December 19, 2011, 11:10:39 PM

In my neck of the woods, high deer numbers made the choice for me. A buddy got kicked out of some CRP type program after the first year when the deer just ravaged his pine (mostly red but some white) just a mile up the road from me. White spruce are a little lower on their preference list so thats what I planted.

I would think the type of soil may have an impact though. On dry sandy stuff, I would think red pine would have quicker growth to reach a return.

Your state forestry web site probably has info on cord prices for the area where your land is. In my area red pine has higher prices and grows well but the deer factor made me plant spruce instead.

thecfarm · December 20, 2011, 07:31:40 AM

Sounds like a good project. Hard to tell the market 20-30 years down the road.I'm only guessing but I think your first cutting wiil be for pulp,just a thinning. This will let the others grow better. I have no idea about the spacing of your planting,but you may want to think enough for a riding lawnmower to keep the junk form growing up around them. Don't forget the limbs lenghts when they start to grow. Than in 5 years or so it won't matter. I was over to one of my friends,friends place just once and he did something like what you did about 15 years. The trees are big now. Your forester will know.

ahlkey · December 20, 2011, 09:08:29 AM

Good Luck

SwampDonkey · December 20, 2011, 12:46:05 PM

Quote from: ahlkey on December 20, 2011, 09:08:29 AM
My feeling though is they are not the best choice for select sawlogs or even high volume pulp.

That has no basis in fact. Ken is currently harvesting 40 cord/acre in 45 year old spruce for studwood. It's not sawlog size and was let go too long for another thinning. If attention were given by the landowner there could have been some small logs. I've seen fir and spruce reach 18" in 45 years, right here on my land, counted the rings.

Growth rate yes the pine exceed the spruce. But on that premise, might as well grow aspen.

Clark · December 20, 2011, 07:45:59 PM

I've seen spruce hit 16" dbh in ~35 years, probably similar to what SD has going on. That is way off the charts and we are talking about a one-time example. I would never expect spruce to grow that good...unless it's Sitka!

Spruce vs. pine is always a good debate. Your ultimate choice should be based on soils and hydrology of the site. If the site is prone to standing water at any time of the year I would rule out red pine, white pine and spruce would be far better. Soils can be so variable from one part of the country to the next. I'd suggest looking it up in a soil survey book (check out the library or SWCD). Then ask Donk what he would recommend!

One thing about spruce is that it likes to take it's time gettin' to grow. What I mean is that you will plant it and then it will sit there, growing very little for 3-6 years. It could be 8 years before it starts really competing with surrounding vegetation. This problem is not as pronounced in pine. What this means for you is that you need to be ready to do adequate site prep for spruce. It might be a multi-step process over 2-4 years to get them where they can fend for themselves.

Clark

mjeselskis · December 20, 2011, 08:18:30 PM

Thanks for all the info. The site is on a south facing slight sidehill. It is very sandy loam with excellent drainage so it's never wet.

If based only on cosmetics, (since I can see it from my house) I do like the look of pine better.

From an economic perspective, it sounds like white and red pine can be worth more if well kept and not hit by disease or bugs. I also like that pine will grow faster and is quicker to dominate the undergrowth. That means less years mowing between the trees for me.

Spruce sounds like it has the possibility to be a fast grower, but not as fast as I was thinking.

With spruce, do you prune off the lower branches like you would with a young pine that was intended to be saw logs eventually?

I'll see what I can find out on the soils. It's mostly scattered oak and white pine growing in the area now.

SwampDonkey · December 20, 2011, 10:48:58 PM

Clark, I am talking about managed spruce and fir. Not sites left to nature. I can show you 50 year old fir 6 feet tall and 2" dbh. :

rocksnstumps · December 20, 2011, 11:10:59 PM

With well drained sandy loam I would think the soils are less of a factor on what to plant. Probably either will do well if the grass competition is suppressed for the first couple of years. But if interested the USDA has an excellent site for soil mapping and what types of soils can grow what types of trees

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

SD's comment on management is important if you're starting out where it grows thigh high grass and weeds. The area I planted was a previous rocky cow pasture on top of some south facing slopes w/fine sandy loam.

In areas I covered with a bucket and sprayed around the trees for a couple of years I have double the growth than where I ran out of time. Too rocky to mow in that area

KBforester · December 21, 2011, 06:26:16 AM

I'd recommend listening to your forester. Obviously there is a chance that they'll be wrong, but in theory your paying them for their expertise, so its probably a good idea to follow it.

I'm writing a management plan for a landowner in eastern Maine, and someone in the past thought it would be a great idea to plant red pine. :

Definitely not pretty. It grew too fast for its own good, so almost every one of the leaders broke in the last 5 years (at about 10 feet up) and nobody took care of them so they still have live branches down to the floor. I'm in a pinch as to what to recommend. There is no pine pulp market here. It really should all be chipped.

SwampDonkey · December 21, 2011, 06:42:33 AM

Some pine has been chipped in this area because someone came along with cash in their hand. When those pine were planted around here, the landowner was told it would be a long time before there was size/value for market. I know I don't like to see it, because for one, they have not replanted those sites. It was nothing but a money grab, plain and simple.

thecfarm · December 21, 2011, 07:49:46 AM

If I was looking at it and I like the looks of pine better,I would plant pine. You will be looking at it for at least 30 years. That's alot of looking for me.If you lose,maybe, a few $1000 for the look so what. You will have enjoyed it all those years.