Timber framing in High schools

[robbshowe]

I have a meeting with a local Head of Education next week to discuss the prospect of us (Thomson Timber) providing a training courses in heavy timber framing in local High Schools as part of an Alternative Curriculum for some of our disaffected teenagers.  I am also a qualified High School Teacher of Technical subjects and have delivered such a course previously but this was on a voluntary basis as an extra-curricular activity.  This was a great success but I was wondering if any fellow timber-framers had experience of doing something similar on your side of the pond.  I am willing to share my experiences with anyone who may be interested and hoped there may be someone out there who has been involved in a similar activity? If so, what format they used and what outcomes and objectives were the result.  Sorry for the short notice but all comments would be welcome ideally before my meeting on the 12th Dec.

[Jim_Rogers]

I did an after school program with some kids.

We cut a 12' x 24' frame to be used as a museum on school grounds. Isn't finished yet.

I had kids from 6 grade up to 12th grade.

The younger kids made a couple of saw horse for the class to use. And then a shaving horse so that they could make their own pegs. After the shaving horse was done they did make all the pegs for the frame.

I have sold tools to a couple of schools that have timber framing programs.

Some students have to be taught how to read a ruler/tape measure. Some get it right away some take a while.

Doing a small project like a shed or small outbuilding that can be used on the school grounds or sold to raise money for the school is always a great project.

Good luck with your meeting and keep asking questions.

Jim Rogers

[jueston]

i don't have any advice about it but i just wanted to say i think this is great, they didn't offer anything like that when i was in highschool but i would have jumped at the chance to learn something like that. and i think learning skills like this can have a great influince on kids that feel like school has nothing worth while to teach them, when they find something that really interests them, and they excell at, it can change the course of there life forever.

[robbshowe]

Thank you for your comments - they are appreciated.  It is my intention to provide an opportunity for some of our pupils to prove they can excel given the correct stimulus.  Not just to others but also to themselves!  I hope that those people in charge of funding for such projects agree and that I have a fruitful meeting with the powers that be.
I'll keep you posted on developments for those of you who are interested.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Good Day Robbshowe,

I will attach a short C.V. to the bottom of this post.  I would love to help in any way you see that I could.  I would need to know the following:

Time frame of the class?
Number of students and there age group/gender?
Are any students adjudicated/ psych profiled?
What is your target goal for class?
Do you have a prepared syllabus?
Do you have or will you be mandated to use a PPM for safety and methodolgy?

That info will get us started, look forward to helping.

Regards,

Jay


C.V.
I specialization in Indigenous Vernacular Folk Architecture of the Americas, Asia, and the Middle East.  I have taught Guild Arts and Crafts.  I am currently the Tree Warden for Thetford, Vermont and have a long history in the Arborist trade.  I own and operate "Tosa Tomo Designs," subcontracting and consulting to several Architects and Design Build Firms.  I also subcontract in Historical Interpretation, Wilderness Guiding, Indigenous Life skills,  Adventure Sports, Leadership Development/Team Building and Personal Security.  I apprenticed with Amish Barn Wrights from 1975 till 1983, when I became a U.S. Marine.  I have held professional certifications and backgrounds in Rock Climbing-High Angle Rigging, Wilderness Experiential Education, Indigenous Life Skills, and Wilderness Medicine.  I have held certifications in Safe Crisis Management, Leadership Development, and Team Building, Self Defense for Women, and Situational Awareness and Security.  I have worked in the Zoological/Natural History field. 

[Mad Professor]

Be careful with insurance liability.

Be careful of the school ADMINISTRATORS.

We had a local school bid a project (not TF) and sleazy ADMINISTRATORS tried to get a free house, for THEMSELVES!!!  Materials paid by school, labor by students.........

Nobody but ADMINISTRATORS bid???????????? 

Don't work for SCUM, but if you can get kids to learn TF the power to you!!!!!

[robbshowe]

Good morning Jay
Whilst I appreciate your offer I'm not sure if you realised where we are located!  We are based in rural Fife in Scotland, north of Edinburgh.  Your CV is indeed impressive, but commuting may be an issue!   If things take off at this end and we require further assistance I will be in touch but it's early days.  I am still at the discussion stage with the education authorities therefore the format of the course has not yet been finalised.  I do however appreciate the advice and will check our business insurance regarding teaching in the school environment.
I am frantically putting together a course outline which will form the basis of what we hope to deliver.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hello Robbshowe,

Your location sounds absolutely grand, and it does not matter how large or small a community might be, (I live in rural Vermont,) the children there will benefit from this programming you want to offer.  I know full well with what is on my plate I couldn't come, though in my heart, I would love to.  The list of things I said I would like to know, is standard fair for most any type of "experiential," education course.  These bits of data, for your own liability as an instructor, can be rather important.

I learned, several decades ago now, when teaching children or young adults, the degree of scrutiny one can get from "outsiders looking in," at your programming.  Whether I'm teaching three teens, in rural Vermont or two dozen in outer Boston, the general class profiling outlines are very similar, only subject syllabus and PPMs change.  Between, your insurance company, Department of Ed (if they are involved) or the parents of the children themselves, the information I outlined is important for you to know, both for better class achievement rates and personal/professional liability.

The "Mad Professor's" advice is very much warranted and keys into some of that information I suggested you know.  Whether you are a professionally trained Teacher or working in the roll of "Technical Instructor,"  when working with youth, all kinds of things can go "side ways," on you.  They better organized and informed you can be about the students, (that's the question you ask as the instructor beforehand,) to general syllabus preparation, etc., all effect performance outcome for students success and liability should things "go side ways," either with a student, or as has been pointed out, supporting staff like local administrators or parents.  The better prep, the easier it is to navigate these potential challenges or pit falls.

Good luck in your endeavors, and please ask, if there is any question you think I could answer.

Regards,

Jay

[robbshowe]

I can see the merits of all the points raised and I thank you for all your advice.  It has given me the chance to focus on what the most important issues are.  I need to ask the local Head of Education exactly what type of kids he expects me to cater for and what learning outcomes he expects me to meet to attract funding from the Education Department!  My experience with the kids I taught before on a similar project was they became highly motivated learners. Sometimes a little of what they want can be an exciting prospect.  I found they wanted to be involved whenever they could found time, constantly asking me when I was available to teach them.  This usually involved evenings, weekends and school holidays!  Not what I would have expected from some of today's youth and something I am unable to do now due to my business commitments
The completed building was eventually bought by a member of the teaching staff and the proceeds retained by the school.  My only disappointment was the Technical Department of the school never saw any of the money!  I subsequently left teaching for a spell to set up Thomson Timber.  I would like to think I can provide a similarly interesting experience but this time as an outside agency.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Please stay in touch and let us all know how thing progress.  Let me know if I can help further or if you just want to bounce off some ideas.  Would love to see your web page or photos of you work there. 

Regards,

Jay

[shinnlinger]

I had my building construction class build a 16x20 hemlock frame for our town forest a few years ago.  It took twice as long as I thought as the Course is for "instruction, not just construction" and that can be a tough concept for a potential customer to comprehend.  Other issues are it is very difficult to keep 12 kids who have little knowledge/skill/caring consistently focused and productive and the result is you will have some sloppy joinery and a few cut tenons, but unless you are able to actually work each one up yourself that has to be expected.  The kids are learning after all!   I also ended up bringing in some of my personal tools that will never be the same again.

In the end it went together just fine and we were in the paper and the structure is a source of inspiration for the kids that participated in it BUT here in the US it is such a fringe building method I have gone back to teaching conventional framing.  All that said I might get in a TF gazebo for an outdoor classroom at one of the Elementary schools.

[robbshowe]

If you would like to visit our website to see the type of work we do you can do a Google search for Thomson Timber uk and you should be able to find us ok.  We have designed and constructed many other buildings but this should give you a flavour of what we do. 

I trained with Joe Thomson of the Weald and Downland Museum in England and also with Steve Chappell of Fox Maple fame, when he ran a course in Asturias in Northern Spain.  I must say that I favour Steve's method of framing due to simplicity. 

When I teach framing I admit I use techniques from both camps to great effect.  I make extensive use of Go/Nogo gauges, templates and rods to give the kids a chance to achieve a reasonable degree of success.  This has proved to be a very successful strategy in the past.  I also prefer to use many old school techniques that rely heavily on teamwork.  For example,  we encourage the use of hand operated augers with two observers to ensure it stays vertical in both planes when cutting mortices. 

I'm now putting together a course outline which I feel will offer the most benefit to the kids taking part.  I have a short 5 minute promotional video that I produced of the framing course I ran on a previous course in a High School.  Having made hours of video I may produce another video with a different emphasis ie focusing more on what and how it was done more than just a celebration of the specific children involved.  I will keep you posted.

[kettleviewtimber]

I'm a high school technical education teacher.  I had my construction class build a 20' x 30' gambrel barn (Just the frame) for a local organization.  It was a very challenging and exciting experience.  I had built my own timber frame home prior to this barn so I knew what I was in for.  The timbers for the barn were reclaimed timbers from local barns that had been torn down.  We hit plenty of hardware that the metal detector didn't find.  My school administration was very supportive of the building and of the class.

The barn took twice as long as I expected. I had to train two different groups of students.  It was hard toward the end of the project to keep the students focused, but we made it.   

 


  

 

[robbshowe]

That was one hell of an undertaking!  I do this for a living most of the time and I doubt I would have embarked on such an ambitious project with High School kids. Can you give me a little more information about this project as this is very close to what we hope to do and would I like to know a little more of how you went about it?

I had hoped to convince the local heads of education of the merits of introducing such a training course throughout our county and wondered how you convinced them.  When I did a similar project in the past I did so as an extra-curricular activity under the banner of an national scheme called the Enterprise Initiative.  It was to supposed to encourage kids to consider self-employment as an option rather than to rely on others to give them a job when they left High School.  Unfortunately, the organizers could not handle the resounding success that it became and when the building was eventually sold, the proceeds were retained by the school administrators whereas I had hoped for these to be divided up and given to the kids who took part - thus encouraging enterprise!! 

Hey Ho!  I have been encouraged to do this new project as an outside agency(Thomson Timber) rather than as part of my regular teaching responsibilities, which in many ways suits me better.  I had thought a 1/2 scale model of a 6m x 6m building was being realistic to achieve in a school term - probably the main frame only!  The main reason for a scaled down model was to eliminate many of the health and safety issues of scaffolding, heavy timbers etc of the full scale building.  It would also remove the need for the more specialized and expensive framing tools associated with heavier timbers. 

Having said all this the administrators in the school I am working in at the moment (part time) are keen for the project to become an outside Eco-friendly classroom and would therefore need it to be of a more standard height.  Funding may also become an issue so I am pre-empting this by saying Thomson Timber is prepared to supply the main timbers to allow one such project to proceed asap with the condition that the building remains as our property until they can find the funds to purchase the timber, if this becomes an issue. 

I had hoped to attached a couple of photos of the type of building I feel may be appropriate but it looks like I need to create an album on the Forestry Forum first.  I had hope to be able to simply access my Picassa albums and post these directly- any comments welcomed. 

I noticed that Lapeer Community Schools conducted an interesting project at Rolland Warner Middle School in 2011.  I understand it was run by the Michigan Barn Preservation Network.  Does anyone know anything about this?

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Robbshowe,

Sounds like your progressing nicely with your thinking and planning.  6m x 6m is more than doable if you approach it systematically.  I agree with you, that if you are providing the timbers and tools, you should be in control of the building.  Now perhaps if you sold it, you could further fund and encourage your school authorities to become more involved fiscally.

Will you be using hand tools, power or a mix?  I hope I didn't put you off with some of my questions/comments before, that wasn't my intent.  I just had spent over a decade running experiential programming and all programs that faltered or failed, did not take many of those things into consideration.  Those "nit-picky," administrative things really can make a program, big or small, run smoother, and "grease," administrative" bank accounts.  One of our local high school programs, builds an entire spec house from the ground up ever year, and it is just one of many like it.  With the correct planning, you will make this happen.  Good Luck.

Regards,

jay

[shinnlinger]

Like Kettle view,

I had to train two groups how to cut joints and the first group we made some timber frame dog houses.  Perhaps if we had actually finished them off they could have been sold and had more meaning, but since we didn't have time for the finishing part the kids were basically asking "whats the point?".  Again, if we were making them to sell from the get go, that could have been a good thing, but cutting timbers for the sake of cutting timbers has never been a good way to teach the "typical" HS student IMO.  My students are NOT the same as the ones you might find in a $500 weekend timberframe workshop.

For the second group, I brought in my own timbers and let the kids build me an outhouse and the kids got behind that   "Shinn's S*itter" became almost as big a deal as the town timberframe.

A shed to be sold can be a good way to control all factors, but when they don't sell that can be a problem.

[robbshowe]

I take your point! 

It was my experience on the first timber frame project I completed as a technical teacher.  As soon as the kids involved realized there was a significant financial worth to the project their motivation levels improved dramatically.  They could see the added value evident as a direct result of their labors. 

The risk associated with the project not selling in my opinion is minimal.  Given that the main objective of the exercise is to teach a valuable life skill the financial reward is really a secondary consideration. 

That said, the marketing strategy when trying to find a buyer of the finished product can be looked on as another learning experience to be embraced by those involved. 

In Scotland in any case there has been a major change in the objectives of our education system.  We are trying to teach kids they need to adopt a more integrated approach to their learning. 

It is my hope with this project that I can illustrate one example of how important this approach to learning can be.  I will be integrating  a number of traditionally distinct educational disciplines, hopefully good effect. 

These may include some the following:
Graphic communication methods, including sketching, CAD and scale models.
The use of spreadsheets to calculate costs involved with producing the building.
Business strategies including marketing. 
The use of DTP to produce promotional material for the project.

The list goes on but I suppose I need to be realistic as the main thrust is to produce a satisfying and motivating project for all those involved.  I expect some kids may prefer to be more involved with the paperwork aspect whilst others will be more hands on.  If they come to appreciate the importance of both in achieving a successful then I will be pleased.  Here's hoping! 

Thanks everyone for their input as it does wonders in concentrating my thoughts.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

These may include some the following:
Graphic communication methods, including sketching, CAD and scale models.
The use of spreadsheets to calculate costs involved with producing the building.
Business strategies including marketing. 
The use of DTP to produce promotional material for the project.

Hello Robbshowe,

It is refreshing to see these other elements also being made part of you core sylibus.  Whether it comes to fruition on the first class or later on, the fact that you are including these topics opens the class to other student who normally may not get to participate. (some kinds I've met love timber framing, they just are better at drawing them, laying out beams, and not so good at cutting.)

I have always seen better programming coming from instructors that try to create "bridges," between the different elements of a core curriculum.  If a student does not become a timber framer, there exposure to those other elements you want to teach could very well open a career path they had never considered.

Regards,

jay

[robbshowe]

Just giving those who are following this thread an update. 
The meeting with my local head of education went really well!  He nearly bit my hand off to put no finer a point on it.

My proposals ticked all the right boxes for the type of project he would like to see being introduced in some of our local High Schools in North East Fife.  What a relief! 

He has asked me to flesh out my proposal by providing a few optional designs which I feel could be completed in either a single term or perhaps over a two term period.

He agrees that the building chosen will probably become an outdoor classroom for similar style projects in the future.  I suggested that perhaps other outside agencies could become involved at a later date and increase the usability of the building by installing plumbing, electricity and perhaps interior design and decorating. 

This was particularly topical given some students have been attending 'skills for work' courses in local colleges in these specific subjects!  By increasing 'ownership' it is hoped we can also increase their motivation to excel. 

Exciting times for us ahead I hope. 

It all looks very positive at the moment although he did mention any such project will probably not get final approval to commence before March next year. 

Having said that I intend to introduce some Timber framing joints into my existing Practical Woodworking Classes with a view of using the better examples as Go/Nogo gauges for the later project buildings, along with some templates and even scale models of these buildings. 

I will continue to provide updates for those who are interested in developments.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

That sound grand, keep us informed of your progress.