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Author Topic: Looking for Rigging Ideas  (Read 2060 times)

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Offline John Vander

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Looking for Rigging Ideas
« on: May 12, 2014, 08:41:18 PM »
Anyone out there have any good info or diagrams for riggng difficult trees? I don't mean arborist rigging up in trees. I mean on the ground. I want to collect various methods and try out some of them. i know a few but would like to add to my skills.
Thanx
 John
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline thenorthman

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 09:22:24 PM »
Pretty blank canvass ya gave us there...

All depends on what you intend to do with the tree...

Find a problem and I'm sure there is a solution on here somewhere.
well that didn't work

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 10:40:10 PM »
do you mean with heavy equipment or manual labor?

Offline John Vander

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 11:49:07 PM »
My apologies, I should have been more specific. Manual labor, using a hand winch. Not for very large trees. Mainly for snow damaged smaller trees in a stand where large machines cannot get into.
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline thenorthman

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2014, 12:54:11 AM »
So the real deal hand logging then?  Dragging out the logs by hand winch and what not.

Back in 1800's the folks around here would use a jack to pick up the end of big logs over stumps so the oxen would have a fighting chance.  Or so gravity could take its effect and the logs would slide down a steep hill and splash into the water.

Also a peavy or cant hook would be a wonderful addition to the arsenal.  Along with a pulley or snatch block or two for redirecting or multiplying of power, just remember to use a nylon type sling around the base of any leave trees you hook the pulley too.

Then the other option is to get yourself one of them gas or chainsaw powered winches, either the capstan type or the lewis winch type, not real sure what you have available in Japan, but there should be something similar.
well that didn't work

Offline beenthere

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2014, 01:30:34 AM »
How many laborers? One, or unlimited?

Length of logs of small diameter? i.e. for firewood, or for sawing to lumber?

Max diameter of logs, distance to move them, width of trails?

Availability (or limits) of rope and/or cable size and/or length?

Budget limit?
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Offthebeatenpath

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2014, 08:20:42 AM »
You struck a chord with me John.  I'm working on a manual with the USFS of backcountry rigging for trail work.  Although it's not logging based, it is about how to move logs and rocks around in the woods with hand powered winches.  There's a lot about how to set blocks in trees without pulling the tree over, which is kind of the opposite of what you're looking for.  But there will be applicable info on mechanical advantage, directional changes, anchor setting, equalizing, etc.
We just got the second set of edits back, so hopefully the manual will be inn production by the end of the year.  It will be a free download (I'm getting no money for this), and I'll be sure to post a link when it comes to fruition.

Here's a couple pics from one training in Southern California, showing volunteers how to pull down snags safely.  The line is on a directional block, keeping the winch operator away from the direction of force on the snag.  The hoist being used is a 4000lb. Griphoist.



  



 
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offline John Vander

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2014, 07:51:50 PM »
beenthere: The trees are not that big (about 30cm diameter) but they are pretty tall (about 10 to 15 meters) They are mostly windthrown and lodged between other trees. Distance is not a problem since they get cut real short and get used as firewood. Rope length is a bit limited to 20 meters. There are no trails and I mostly work alone.
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline John Vander

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2014, 08:00:59 PM »
Offthebeatenpath: Thanx for those pics! I'm looking forward to that pdf. Thank you very much.
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 09:07:39 PM »
So, if I understand, mostly rigging to just get the trees down on the ground.
Capstan winch like member quebecnewf has and has demonstrated comes to mind. Also any portable winch or even a good fence stretcher or chainfall should come in real handy and workable.
Also, using poles for levers can be used to nudge these trees down if they are free of the stump.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline John Vander

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 10:36:41 PM »
beenthere: Thank you for the reply. Yes, the main idea is to get those trees on the ground. My work revolves mostly around clean-up jobs. The lever idea is a good one, thank you. Any suggestions on what to do when wanting to remove a tree while trying to minimize damage to surrounding trees. I mean, there are sometimes some beautiful maples and stuff in the understory. One time I failed trying to save a small tree that was located under a windthrown cedar. I tried but messed up and landed the cedar on it  :). Any other advice is well appreciated.
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 11:51:38 PM »
Sometimes, when trying to drop a tree to the ground, using a pole or two propped against another tree as a bumper or as a guide for the tree to slide down. Takes some rigging to put something like a pole in the right place and to keep it there. Tie two together near the top and the Y that is formed will lay up nice and stay.

You'll win some and lose some, but fun to try.

Sometimes, cutting short sections off the butt end will get the hung-up tree to stand up straighter, allowing you to change its direction of fall to where you want it to come down with some ropes or cabling. Not always regarded as the safest way to get trees down however.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline enigmaT120

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 01:32:21 PM »
Sometimes, cutting short sections off the butt end will get the hung-up tree to stand up straighter, allowing you to change its direction of fall to where you want it to come down with some ropes or cabling. Not always regarded as the safest way to get trees down however.

I hate doing that.  Which doesn't always stop me.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Offline John Vander

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 07:26:10 PM »
Sometimes, when trying to drop a tree to the ground, using a pole or two propped against another tree as a bumper or as a guide for the tree to slide down. Takes some rigging to put something like a pole in the right place and to keep it there. Tie two together near the top and the Y that is formed will lay up nice and stay.

Many stands here in Japan have a lot of bamboo standing around. Maybe I can think of ways to employ this as bumpers or for sliding the tree etc. The bamboo is pretty thick and strong.

Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline macpower

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 07:37:24 PM »
Offthebeatenpath,
Your bottom photo, is the light green hardhat "inside" a snatch block rigging? Looks like a cable coming back over their right shoulder? If so, not a good place to be.
Purveyor of Stihl chain saws.
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Offline Offthebeatenpath

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 12:51:28 PM »
Macpower- Thanks for the critical eye.  It does appear that the hoist operator might be in the bight (or angle of death as we sometimes call it), but the wire rope you see over his shoulder has no tension on it.  It is what is coming out of the rear of the Griphoist.  The hoist is a continuous feed machine- wire rope is fed in one end and comes out the other.  You put the handle on one lever to move the wire rope one direction (i.e apply tension), switch the handle to the other lever to feed it the other way (i.e. feed out slack).  These little machines are power houses and I can say enough good about them.  I have four.

Anyway, the photos were taken at a rigging training I instructed so you can rest assured that everyone was far from potential fly zones and angles of death.  We had a dynamometer measuring the force on the Griphoist and we were calculating the direction of force and maximum quantity of force on each sling, shackle, block, and load during each step of the process.

I have pulled quite a number of snags down with power sources hooked up to a dynamometer and it is sometimes amazing what the holding power of a few branches can be. It often takes in excess of 5000 pounds of force to pull a tree down, sometimes it takes much much more.  To that end, I would encourage John NOT to use a come-along, fence stretcher, or chain fall to try and pull down hung up trees.  Get a real, heavy duty power source that is designed for an application similar to what you'll be using it for.  The capstan winches and Lewis winches are great tools, although I'm confidant that in a tug of war, the Griphoist would overpower the capstan (and break the rope unless it was fitted with an Amsteel Blue or equivalent synthetic rope) and it would pull the Lewis apart or snap the undersized wire rope that comes with it.
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offline John Vander

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 06:55:31 PM »
I want to learn more about this stuff... :P
Tree and saw accidents nullify years of forestry experience.

Offline enigmaT120

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Re: Looking for Rigging Ideas
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 12:41:48 PM »
Griphoist, just one more thing I didn't know I needed but now know I do.

There's one for sale over in Redmond for a few hundred bucks....

Ed Miller
Falls City, Or


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