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Question about hydraulic top link choices

Started by btulloh, August 29, 2021, 08:05:07 PM

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btulloh

A couple weeks ago I bought a new Kubota MX5400 HST with cab along with a grapple. I had two sets of  dual acting remotes installed on the rear. I'm getting ready to add a hydraulic top link and I'm wondering about an option I see for these. It can be just a regular dual port cylinder OR you can get some additional plumbing on top - a double pilot operated check valve between the ports. This is supposed to prevent drift, but I'm using a regular spool for double acting remotes, not a center detent and no float. 

I'm not sure if I need or even want the check valve?  

Hydraulic plumbing is not my strong suit so input would be helpful. 

Thanks. 
HM126

Southside

You want the check valve, it will require pressure from your remote to allow the cylinder to move, so it becomes just as reliable as a regular top link. 

Otherwise if you are using something with a good draft and you encounter a hard spot all the back pressure is against the valve spool, and they will give. 

The check is pretty standard on industrial loaders and such for drift and broken hose protection. Pricy, but worth it. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Patrick NC

Quote from: Southside on August 29, 2021, 08:10:04 PM
You want the check valve, it will require pressure from your remote to allow the cylinder to move, so it becomes just as reliable as a regular top link.

Otherwise if you are using something with a good draft and you encounter a hard spot all the back pressure is against the valve spool, and they will give.

The check is pretty standard on industrial loaders and such for drift and broken hose protection. Pricy, but worth it.
X2
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

btulloh

Well that's a definitive answer.  Thanks guys.

Lot of choices out there for top links and no problem finding ones with the check valve. Just need to figure out a good choice and the correct hoses and fittings. I thought this was going to be a simple thing, but it's got me scratching my head about cylinder sources and correct fittings and such.

I was thinking this would be a good way to get a little acquainted with the plumbing, but I'm tempted to just tell the dealer to figure it out for me.  That would be easy but pricey and I wouldn't know anything more about applied hydraulics than I do now.

FWIW, two sets of couplers came along with the tractor, so I'm just dealing with threaded hoses to get this done. Probably some adapters, rt angle fittings, etc.  amazing how confusing this can be to a rookie. 
HM126

Southside

There should not be any extra plumbing on the tractor side of the equation.  The check valve is usually just a steel block on the side of the cylinder and it will have a relief valve in the block, your hose just goes from the tractor remote and into the block rather than straight into the cylinder.  

Post pictures of anything you have questions on.  Old Dominion Hydraulics in Ashland is my go to when it comes to cylinders, pumps, valves, etc.  Jason is old school and very fair on pricing.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

btulloh

That sounds like a good place to get acquainted with. I can get up there in about a half hour, and usually I have other stops to make in Ashland anyway.

I do realize that it's just the matter of two hoses with the correct fittings on each end, but that leaves a lot of variables. I was thinking about just ordering but probably a lot better to give them the couplers and cylinder and the hose length and get the right stuff the first time.

Or are you suggesting that they can make up the ram if I give them the ends, the length and stroke, etc. and have the make up the cylinder from scratch?  There are quite a few suppliers that offer that service or off the rack cylinders already fabbed up.  My link is nothing unusual lengthwise.
HM126

Southside

My guess is you have "Pioneer" female remotes on the tractor. All you need to do is buy a hydraulic top link, Cat 2 given the tractor size, then get a pair of hoses fabbed up with 1/2" male pipe fittings on the tractor end, and whatever is on the piston end, probably JIC. Two male "Pioneer" fittings thread onto the tractor side of the hoses and it's plug and play. 

I can get you pictures tomorrow. There is a hose shop right next door to Old Dominion. TSC should have the Pioneer quick connects. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

btulloh

Don't worry about the picture. You've got plenty to do besides pictures. 

I guess I'm trying to make this more complicated than it is. 

Yeah, it's cat 2 and pioneer couplers. I already have the couplers.  NAPA is only five miles from me and they can makes the hoses. 

TSC has top links, but not in stock. Agrisupply too, and other vendors.  I guess any of those will be fine as long as I get cat 2 and the same length as my top link.  

Thanks for the replies. 
HM126

John Mc

As someone who cheaped out and went without the double piloted check valve on my hydraulic toplink, I can say that you definitely want the check valves.

One of these days, I'll get around to replacing mine.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mike_belben

Quote from: btulloh on August 30, 2021, 07:31:35 AM
I guess I'm trying to make this more complicated than it is.
yes, but thats natural to do in uncharted waters. soon in hindsight youll see it was easy.  get a checkvalved toplink in your hands for cat 2.  then go to the ag shop and make it connect to the remotes, youll be in business. 
Praise The Lord

Dave Shepard

My factory Kubota top-n-tilt top link is just a double acting cylinder. Never had a problem using the winch, 7' field mower,  two bottom plow, box blade, etc.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

btulloh

Quote from: mike_belben on August 30, 2021, 03:54:53 PM
Quote from: btulloh on August 30, 2021, 07:31:35 AM
I guess I'm trying to make this more complicated than it is.
yes, but thats natural to do in uncharted waters. soon in hindsight youll see it was easy.  get a checkvalved toplink in your hands for cat 2.  then go to the ag shop and make it connect to the remotes, youll be in business.
Yep, that's the way it usually works.  Kinda figured it was time to get over the hump instead of just letting the dealer figure it all out for a small phenomenal fee.
Looks like i can get the top link i need and the right hoses at tsc. Not in stock, but seems to be available in short order.  Should be around $350 or so for everything. 
HM126

Nathan4104

Double check the tractor end top link 'pin' size.   My M7060 is cat 1 on the tractor side and cat 2 on the implement side (factory manual top link).
I don't have a check valve on my Hyd top link cylinder. I can't say I notice any drift but the other comments about valve protection make sense.  Make sure you get one with the biggest rod diameter you can find! 

mike_belben

...and be VERY CAUTIOUS testing the ranges of homemade attachments.  Ive bent 2 toplinks that way on stuff ive built and not maxxed out to check clearance.
Praise The Lord

Dave Shepard

Valves will be protected by the tractor's relief valve. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

mike_belben

The check valves in the live toplink just block fluid from exiting a loaded cylinder if a hose blows with a load on it.  You need pressure on the B port to unseat the check thats keeping fluid in the A port side.  It cant just drain out by gravity. 



Relief valve in the spool is not related at all. Thats in the pump and tank circuit and only come into play when you have lever actuated to block the tank path abd connect the pump to the work path. 

 These checks are in the work circuit. Soon as you let go of a spool handle the work circuit and pump circuit are disconnected by the spool blocking the connection in the valve block.  Being open center, any pressure in the pump line is vented to tank again as normal. 
Praise The Lord

Dave Shepard

I'll have to check my valve, but I thought there was a relief in the block. If so, it would be exclusive to my situation.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

btulloh

Quote from: Nathan4104 on August 30, 2021, 09:52:33 PM
Double check the tractor end top link 'pin' size.   My M7060 is cat 1 on the tractor side and cat 2 on the implement side (factory manual top link).
I don't have a check valve on my Hyd top link cylinder. I can't say I notice any drift but the other comments about valve protection make sense.  Make sure you get one with the biggest rod diameter you can find!
Same with this tractor. Cat 1 at the tractor end. I think there's enough clearance in the bracket to use a bushing with the cat 2 ball end on this particular cylinder. I need to do some careful measuring to make sure though. That's the one potential snag in this plan.  That cat 1 pin at the tractor end seems like a Kubota signature move. Seems like an odd thing to do except to make you hostage to their parts department. 
HM126

Southside

Naa LS does it too. A buddy has a 55 HP can LS that was the same way. About two minutes with an angle grinder and some blue paint and all was well. 

Get into the big stuff and you have Cat 3 narrow and Cat 3 wide, never fails I have the wrong quick hitch on. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

btulloh

Angle grinder always comes in handy in these situations. I just need to make sure I'm in the two minute category and not the fifteen minute category. Plus these cylinders are black, so matching paint won't be an issue. 

Gotta recheck my stroke and length specs too.  There are two AMA cylinders that can work - a two inch with 1 3/16 rod or a two and a half with the same rod. For fifty bucks difference it seems like bigger is better. 

Mike, I don't know the technical term for the Kubota reliefs, but they do what you want when you exceed the weight capacity. I've had lots of practice with my old l3250 trying to pick up something too heavy and the bypass kicks in to save the day. 
HM126

Crusarius

btulloh, I have been toying with the same hydraulic toplink setup for my box blade. When you figure it out can you post what you end up with?

btulloh

Will do.  If you do a lot of box blade work, the hydro would be a game changer. 

I'll post the details when they're worked out, but you'll need to check the geometry on your rig and make choices accordingly. It's simply(? Ha!) a matter of matching the stroke and length to your current top link. And the correct category hitch. And the correct couplers for your rear remotes. 

Most tractors use pioneer type couplers on the rear remotes (unless you have a green tractor.  

The tricky part with the Kubota M series is that they have cat 2 3pt hitch but the tractor end of the top link uses a 3/4 pin, which is the cat 1 spec.  
HM126

mike_belben

hydraulics is a big world and im just a little belben so its very possible that there are locking cylinders that also have overload relief incoorporated into the load check block, it wouldnt be hard to do.  just a cartridge relief inserted into a common passage between the A and B ports in the block should do it.  i have only experience putting the relief in the pumping side of the circuit.  
Praise The Lord

Crusarius

I was just going to buy any old ram cause I had no idea there was such a thing so thanks for the info. 

I definitely do alot of box blade work. biggest reason I want the hydraulic top link. I have a Kubota L2800. so its a cute little guy but work good for what I use it for.

btulloh

Here's the one that I think will work for me.  https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ama-usa-category-2-hydraulic-top-link-22-3-8-in-to-33-1-2-in-6012-6012

Available in many sizes from many sources. Cylinder is made in italy. 
HM126

btulloh

If you're real adventurous you could just buy a ram and weld some ends on it and and so forth. More fun than I want right now.
HM126


Southside

My green tractor has Pioneer and JD couplers on the remotes, my IH has "old style" IH connectors on the remotes - I have a 5 gallon bucket full of adapters.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Corley5

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

btulloh

A final update to close the book on this . . .

I got the AMA top link through TSC that I referenced a few posts back. Ship to store for free. Actually arrived in 2 or 3 days (a lot of other sources for the same cylinder were out of stock).  Also got their hose kit, 36", pioneer couplers, proper thread at cylinder end with right angle, nesting ends.  Included copper crush washers.  All in all a very complete combo, nothing else needed (except a few navy words that always help installation lol).

Been using it for a few months.  Works great, very beneficial, very happy with the cylinder and hoses all at a decent price.  Made in Italy - at least it's not Chinese.
HM126

stavebuyer

Quote from: btulloh on January 20, 2022, 09:59:30 PM
A final update to close the book on this . . .

I got the AMA top link through TSC that I referenced a few posts back. Ship to store for free. Actually arrived in 2 or 3 days (a lot of other sources for the same cylinder were out of stock).  Also got their hose kit, 36", pioneer couplers, proper thread at cylinder end with right angle, nesting ends.  Included copper crush washers.  All in all a very complete combo, nothing else needed (except a few navy words that always help installation lol).

Been using it for a few months.  Works great, very beneficial, very happy with the cylinder and hoses all at a decent price.  Made in Italy - at least it's not Chinese.
This thread motivated me to get the TSC toplink. Same experience as you except mine arrived at the store the day after I ordered. Appears well made. The initial trial was with the pto winch and it is rock solid. Great convenience for not much spending. 

Wlmedley

Being you have a new tractor with new valves check valves should not be needed but unless valves on tractor have circuit reliefs there will be no hose or cylinder protection if overloaded.Check valves wouldn't protect against overload either,if cylinder drifts when spool is in neutral either cylinder is bypassing or control valve is worn.You should be fine.
Bill Medley WM 126-14hp , Husky372xp ,MF1020 ,Homemade log arch,Yamaha Grizzly 450,GMC2500,Oregon log splitter

Dan_Shade

@btulloh how is your top link holding up?

Did you have to modify it to fit on your tractor? 

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

btulloh

No issues. Really couldn't be happier with the way it's holding up. Love the ability to adjust on the fly. I did have to grind a little off the ball end for clearance at the tractor end. The bushing at that same end needed to be ground down from 2" to 1 7/8". Both of those are because the mx5400 is a bit non-standard at the tractor end of the top link. No big deal though. Really pleased with top link and hose kit from TSC. 

I want change the lift link to hydraulic now.  
HM126

customsawyer

I have been using hydraulic top links on my tractors for over 25 years. Maybe it's just my tractors, but I've never put a check valve on any of them. I've hung the planters up in tree stumps and broken the pin end off the end of the ram a few times but have never had one bleed in or out. I'm also not a hydraulic guru so I tend to get by with things that aren't supposed to work.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

John Mc

I've had my current tractor for 22 years, and had a hydraulic toplink (as well as a hydraulic side link) on it for about 20 of those years. It's just a plain cylinder, no check valves. I get by without them, but if I ever do this again, I'll definitely get one with the double piloted check valves.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

beenthere

Mine came with the check valve. For sure, couldn't (wouldn't) do without the hyd. top link. No use for the side link, with the tools and attachments I use. Roots and rocks on my woods trails keep me from using a back blade to ditch them. 



 


Before painting.


 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

I suspect that a top link check valve is now a (safety) requirement such as the "fuse" on the sawmill loader hydraulic cylinder.  It would prevent unexpected movement if a hose burst.
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