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Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

Started by YellowHammer, December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

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Magicman

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AMThe log half is not really clamped, it is really just stabilized.  It takes a little while to trust that the log half won't move when sawing, but its rare for it to happen.   

Quote from: Brad_bb on December 28, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps. 

Notice what Robert said about clamping in the OP.  Those log halves are heavy.  You are not actually clamping it, you are stabilizing it.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 28, 2016, 09:01:44 AM
  At the end of the day, the highly figured boards are sold, and the only thing left is the plain boards.  So these eventually go on the lower priced stacks and we lose $2 per bdft between what I paid for the logs and what our sales price is.









What::) I think you're paying too much for some logs. :new_year:
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

terrifictimbersllc

Thanks for this writeup. I'll try it next time.  First Bibby the log, then (Yellow)Hammer it! :D :D :D

I usually have 3 pieces on the loading arms trying to keep them there or one on the ground too.   And forgetting which face to cut off of one or more of them by the time it comes back onto the mill.

This method seems to:
-neatly organizes the quarter sawing both mentally and in material handling.   Organization helps efficiency and is always good for business.
-do the best for each piece of QS lumber that is in the log
-replace time spent getting a big half vertical, and handling other pieces, with time where the blade is in the wood.


DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

YellowHammer

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 29, 2016, 06:27:16 AM
What::) I think you're paying too much for some logs.

I always think I pay too much for logs!  I just can't convince the loggers that.  However, at just our retail selling price difference of FAS white oak vs QS white oak, it's a difference of $1.50 per Bdft lost if a board doesn't have fleck. 

TerrificTimber
I agree, juggling log quarters is very frustrating and time consuming, and this eliminates that.  The bigger the log, the bigger the pain juggling quarters.  Generally, the only time the log half has to be hand touched would be the second log half, depending on how it lands when it comes off the bottom half, it may have to be flipped over to get the round side down on the bed rails.  Sometime the two plane will do it, sometimes not.  So if it lands wrong side down, then, with the log half on the loader arms, back the two plane into the left side of the log, as outboard as possible, maybe a couple inches up, and raise the loader arms.  The log half will hang on the back of the two plane, and if it doesn't trip and fall over when I raise the loader arms, then I use a logrite to grab the top of the half and nudge it past it's balance point and trip it over on the bed.  Make sure the backstops are all the way up or she will go over the other side of the mill.   
I have a grapple on my tractor I can use to physically remove the top log half if I want, but its just one more thing to do, and tripping it with the two plane while it's on the mill works fine. 

Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

flatrock58

Perfect timing YH.  I have a large red oak I need to cut and try this method. 
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Cooks Dual Tooth Setter
Solar Kiln

WDH

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:04 AM
Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....

Sometimes, those guys can get an attitude  :) ;D. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

4x4American

Quote from: WDH on December 29, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:04 AM
Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....

Sometimes, those guys can get an attitude  :) ;D .


These frozen logs that are covered in ice (and mud) can be a bear to turn with the claw/clamp sometimes...sometimes I wonder how hard it would be to put a chain turner on there, and other times I want to drag the 40 super to WM and trade it in on a 70 super  ;D


But then I figure I'll let them get all the bugs worked out of them before I go and do something like that
Boy, back in my day..

Kbeitz

Around 20 years ago I picked up a new hydraulic chain turner for a saw mill
at our local junkyard. At the time I did not even know what it was. I only
got it for the hoses and the hydraulic motor that was on it. So it has been
sitting out in the weather all this time. Maybe its time to do something with it.
This was in new condition when I found it. I'm not sure that I have room to
mount this unit under my small mill.



 



 



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Peter Drouin

I can't believe someone through that way!! Kbeitz
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Magicman

It could have been from a stolen sawmill and they carried it to the scrapyard a piece at the time.   :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

Kbietz, what an excellent find.  Looks pretty beefy.

I was working on some oversized red oak quarters today, and took a few more photos.  This is more of typical conventional quartersawing, and I wasn't really reverse rolling, just doing what I could to get them up in the mill and sawn.  This log was quartered for me with a chainsaw as a present by someone else and weren't halves.  However, I wasn't complaining, they were as big as my mill would take.

These big guys were difficult to maneuver, and my two plane would barely lift them.  However, with a little bit of wrestling, I got the first quarter in position, and didn't push it over the back side.   

Here is a picture of it rotated so that the growth rings are perpendicular the the band.  The log clamping look precarious, but it's steady. The first wedge has been cut.


I was not real happy with the figure, so did some grain prospecting.  Basically, I'll make slight adjustments, and in this case raised the rear toe board some, and rotated a few more degrees.  Then I took a shallow skim pass and found the fleck.   
In the picture below, the right board is the wedge cut with minimal fleck that I wasn't happy with, the left board is the thin prospecting cut with fleck.  The fleck still wasn't that great, but better than what was in the wedge cut.  I didn't have to change the angle much to see better results.  This is one advantage of taking the first cut off the narrow top, it's easy to search for and find the fleck without wasting a wide board.




Once the fleck is found, then start at the top and work down as far as the mill will go on on the perpendicular rings.  Then do some more rotations and keep whittling.



The cant was so big the left side of the log was brushing the inboard rollers, almost hitting the upright, and the right side was almost touching the outboard side.  Max mill capacity on QS boards, big boards, 26 inch or so across coming off. 





YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Kbeitz

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 30, 2016, 08:35:12 PM
I can't believe someone through that way!! Kbeitz
About one a month I find something as good as that to bring home
from that same yard.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Peter Drouin

Well, It must be you and maybe 2 other guys are picking.
Here you have to be lucky I have 50 guys picking. I do find a lot too.

YH, good job, That's big wood :o I have been doing that too, Near the end of it I sometimes flip the thing so my dog board is 5/4 ¼ sawn too.
:new_year:
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

terrifictimbersllc

Should I move?  I can't pick at my dump.  :-[
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Kbeitz

I would show some of the stuff I found but this is getting off topic.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

4x4American

Quote from: Kbeitz on January 01, 2017, 10:00:12 AM
I would show some of the stuff I found but this is getting off topic.


Make a new thread then over on the general board?  Junkyard finds...
Boy, back in my day..

Andries

Nice Christmas present, and what a load.
That load is centered nicely.
Good thing, otherwise your trailer might be doing a reverse roll too!
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

YellowHammer

I was a doing some more quartersawing and decided I'd take a picture of every cut.  I wanted to see how many misses I would have, and maybe help explain the way I've been doing it lately.  There are lots of ways to quarter saw, but this technique works best for me, and allows me to start with a full half log and not quarter it.  This means a lot less hands on log handling, and less pieces of log pushed on the loader arms to deal with later.  Then by simply rolling the half log up into the band, allows me to just keep on sawing, one board after another.
I put a bunch of marks, way more than I usually do, on the end of the log to make it easier to see the rays and grain in the photos, and also allows me to keep track of the rays in my sawing pattern.  If you look at the pictures, you'll notice that many times I'm coming way off ray, but still take a cut based on the previous cut, knowing I'd get at least one good side.
This goes pretty fast, and I never have to touch the cant, I can do all the rotations with the hydraulics.  Basically just take a half a log and whittle it until it's gone. 

Bottom line, I only missed the QS fleck on one board, and it was a narrow starter wedge, which is the idea because I don't miss on a wide board.  I was able to immediately go back and make a wedge cut, and scored again.  Anyway, lots of pics to follow, generally an end view of the cut, and the resulting board.  I really like this technique, because I know the next board will have fleck, or I can make a simple adjustment to get it.  No guessing, just results.



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 

 

  

A miss, so I make a wedge cut and hit it again



  



  



  



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 

Using the two plane to hold the cant off the bed to get a good angle on the cut



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

4x4American

Beautiful lumber  8)


Thanks for sharing!
Boy, back in my day..

sawwood

I have watch a few you tube videos and have seen some photos on here showing how to quarter saw. I would some one to
make a video showing first on the log where the grain is and where to make the cuts. Then from start all the way to the end
even if it take a two part video to show the hole proses. I all ways seem they cut it two short and I don't get how some of the
cuts are made. We have a manual mill and it take some time to try and cut a log quarter saw.

Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Darrel

Sure looks like you get better results this way than I've gotten sawing off the bottom.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Peter Drouin

Very good job YH, I do the same with marking the ends to show the rings. Sometimes the log has enough trim to cut off a ½" so I can see them better.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

boardmaker

Wonderful tutorial.

Great job and THANKS!

Larry

Rings mean nothing.  I always mark the rays (red marks) for the best flake.



After a while it becomes clear as too which log will be the easiest to quarter saw.  It is also helpful to look at both ends of the log. 

The thickness of the rays are also an excellent predictor of flake quality.  The thicker the ray the better. 

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Engineer

Very nice looking lumber.

Earlier in the thread you said that you don't seal the logs because you can't see the grain or rays.  Maybe worth it to cut off no more than an inch off the end of the log just before you mark it.  That way you can still use sealer, it's protected until you're ready to cut it, and then you just shave off a very thin cookie and can clearly see your rays and mark them.  I always liked to start a log on a clean end, especially if I needed to know where the pith or grain direction was. 

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