Eastern Colorado

[240b]

With money, all things are possible.

Just because somethings possible doesn't mean it ought to be...   Arizona is well on its way to being a real desert... not one with native plants, just sand, The water being put on those fields has so much salt in it, nothing will be growing there sometime in the future. You can see it up in SE UT and SW CO already. From the little I've read this is a problem with irrigated agriculture everywhere in the world, unfortunately.  I recently read something about how the city of Las Vagas is putting in a 56" pipe up into the central part on NV and basicly going to suck two valleys dry... I've forgotten the details but the ranchers that live in those valleys are not to happy. 

[mesquite buckeye]

The salt issue can easily be managed with tile drains to leach the salt out of the soil. We could ship it back east where they would call it fertilizer.

[240b]

Thats interesting, so you can flush the salt out out the soil with the same water?  Or do the tiles somehow prevent the saline ground water from leaching up?    I've never heard of salt being used as fertilizer, anywhere..

[Ianab]

It would be possible to flush salt out with more water. The trick would be to have a significant portion  of the water flowing Through the soil to carry that excess salt away. Problem is that you then need to apply maybe 2X the water, as 1/2 of it is being drained away.

Irrigation is used quite commonly here in NZ, but only to make up for low rainfall during summer etc. Other times are year there is plenty of excess rain to leach that salt away, into the ground water, and hence into the rivers and out to the sea.

But in an arid area you need to take those extra precautions as you don't have the natural rainfall for the other 6 months, so salt build up is an issue if you only irrigate enough for the plants, and don't have that run-off. You keep adding water with a trace of salt, but it's all evaporated via the plants, the salt is left behind and concentrated over the years.

Ian

[mesquite buckeye]

Thats interesting, so you can flush the salt out out the soil with the same water?  Or do the tiles somehow prevent the saline ground water from leaching up?    I've never heard of salt being used as fertilizer, anywhere..

You might have to do that maybe once every year or two. The "salt" we are talking about is actually a complex of things like NaCl, CaCO₃, and lots of things like Iodine and Selenium that are actually deficient in many high rainfall areas. It was a bit of a joke, but it's true that applying our waste salts to highly leached soils would be beneficial in terms of pH and micronutrients.

[Al_Smith]

I've been doing my best to digest this theory but I can't wrap my head around it.

So they came up with a scheme to divert a portion of the glacial melt that feeds the Yukon and Dawson rivers to meander over the Rocky Mountains and water portions of Arizona .That would be a good trick all by itself considering thousands of feet of elevation changes .

Okay green grass in Tucson aside what about those rivers that evidently dump into the Beaford sea or whatever it's called ,cold water  .Does the Corps of engineers really think they have the knowledge to change several  zillion years of geoligical fact .Not to mention breaking the bank of the USA if not Canada if they go for it which if they are smart they won't .

Did anybody on this group of wizards ever consider the environmental impact even diverting 10 percant of that water would do .

[mesquite buckeye]

There was no EPA at the time, so no environmental impact statement...

Not water to only Arizona, much of the west and high plains and Sonora, Mexico. Interesting stuff, as there is already a delivery system in the SW to both parts of CA and AZ. I'm sure it would easily connect to other existing systems as well.

The Snake river passes very close to the Columbia, the Colorado system extends into Utah and Colorado, south to Sonora. The system utilizes existing river systems and existing dams, as well as new dams and canals. I haven't looked at the thing for probably 25 years, but it is indeed well thought out. and it would be the biggest public works project in world history. It would probably more than double the food that could be grown.

I'm not advocating this at this time, only stating what will come when enough hungry people are demanding to be fed make it necessary.

The world is full of impossible things that eventually got done.

The transcontinental railroad.

Telephone.

Travel faster than the speed of sound.

ICBM

A missile that can shoot down an incoming missile.

Stealth technology.

Going to the moon.

and on and on.

[mesquite buckeye]

Not so much green grass in Tucson, except during the Monsoon in the summer. Try LA for that one. They got their water from the Owens Valley, east of the Sierra Nevada a long time ago.

[pappy19]

Many years ago there was a move by a bunch of private investors to pipe water from the Great Lakes down to the Wyoming coal fields and another pipeline back to the refineries. The coal companies would pulverize the coal and mix with the water to form a coal-slurry. At the time, the railroads were making a ton of money off of hauling coal, still do today. Anyway, the RR's said they would not allow any encroachment permits for the pipelines to cross any their RR tracks. It went to court and appeals kept it going for almost 20 years. The RR companies lost but by that time, the private money dried up. Also along the way from the Great Lakes to Wyoming, some irrigation water stations were planned. Could have been an interesting idea.

[beenthere]

pappy
Thanks for your comment, as it reminded me of the Great Lakes pact that is set up to protect the water there. Quite a bit of info about the coal slurry proposal, as well as other proposals ongoing over the years about using water in the lakes.
Can read some here with a good map showing the Great Lakes and the diversions into and out of the GL now.
http://www.watershedcouncil.org/water%20resources/great%20lakes/threats-to-the-great-lakes/great-lakes-water-use-and-diversion/

Now a lot of concern to protect the GL from getting invasives that will cause problems.

[Autocar]

Al I was just comenting on how much freash water was flowing down the Yukon river, and didn't want anyone to think I thought they should pump it any where. The only pumping I talked about was when the rivers here at home or the rivers west of us were at flood stage it would be nice is we could schare it with the folks west of use by pumping it over abandoned pipe lines.

[Al_Smith]

Yeah but this river system depends on exactly where you're at in the state .

The stuff where I'm at goes north to lake Erie and eventually over the falls of Niagra .Slightly south it goes to the Ohio river  and eventually to the Mississippi . Flood stage on our rivers usually is short lived ,a couple days ,week at best .

While it might be a noble thought the massive amounts of water although small by comparison to the Mississippi is massive .It would take huge pipe lines and huge pumps just to make a dent in moving that much water .

[red]

we figured out how to pump water from Kuait to Bagdad . . any effort is a start

[Axe Handle Hound]

We can definitely build the pipeline and pump vast amounts of water, but to what end?  We're throwing money and resources at something simply to prove we can do it.  It doesn't matter how much we try, we'll never be able to sustainably turn arid desert climates into lush farmfields.  Sure we can prove that desert soils can grow crops and they probably will grow them amazingly well, but only as long as the water continues to flow.  Eventually, it will dry up.  We've proven to be highly effective at using up what at first appeared to be an inexhaustible resource.  I still stand by my earlier point of learning to work within the limitations of the environment we exist in.  Native Americans successfully grew corn, beans and squash in the hot, arid southwest thousands of years ago by cultivating seed stocks that did well in that environment.  I think we could probably do the same.   

[mesquite buckeye]

I'm sure we could. I've done it myself. There were very few of them.

We will have to deal with the realities of humanity, among which is the need for enough food.

[fuzzybear]

Al I was just comenting on how much freash water was flowing down the Yukon river, and didn't want anyone to think I thought they should pump it any where. The only pumping I talked about was when the rivers here at home or the rivers west of us were at flood stage it would be nice is we could schare it with the folks west of use by pumping it over abandoned pipe lines.

The problem with diverting the Yukon river is simple.  It flows the wrong way to help anyone but the people in Alaska. The Yukon is a westerly flowing river to a point, it's true flow through out is north. And it empties into the Arctic Ocean.
  That coupled with the fact that it is currently 9' thick ice this time of year. and frozen over for 6 months a year. The river still flows but is limited due to ice. The Yukon is the 2nd fastest flowing river next to the Frazier.
  It was figured that the Yukon river at Dawson produces a little over 1,000,000 horse power per minute. That is a large volume of water to try and harness.
  It would be nice to divert water to the south. It is not impossible, but impractical. The pumping stations required to raise the water up over 10,000' elevation would bankrupt most companies. Then laying pipe line over the roughest most unforgiving ground for the 6000km journey is an engineering nightmare.  Then to service those lines would be a lot of money.
  Keeping the water in liquid form also presents a problem. This is a land where we have 3-6 weeks of -50 temperatures and temperatures have and can reach -70. Not an easy task to keep it flowing.
  The whole proposed project was a pork project, I rank it right up there with the money the US government spent to research the potential to harness the power of the Northern Lights.  :  they built a nice research center that was left after one winter and spending close to $500,000 to build.
FB

[mesquite buckeye]

Check out some of the canals for irrigation throughout the world. You don't go over the mountain tops, you go around or go through. You would not use pipelines for gigantic volumes of water, you use canals, lift the water high enough to flow to the next lift point, if needed and so on.

You just said it yourself. I have no idea if the numbers you quote are accurate or not, but just for the sake of discussion, let's say that they are. You could do a lot of lifting with 1 million horsepower, just from that one river.

Granted, it freezes in the Great White North in the winter, but please realize that the greatest need for water by crops is during the summer, when the rivers are roaring. Also, water can be stored in reservoirs for future use. This portion of the discussion simply limits the time of the year available, and would require a larger canal system to handle the total volume than a year round system would need to be. The big canal would only need to be extra large in the coldest portion  of the route.

It's so fun to see the reactions to a 50 year old idea that probably will built by our great grandchildren or great great grandchildern. They will make the decisions for the world through different eyes than we do. I hope they will be smarter than we are ;D 8) 8).

[Axe Handle Hound]

I'm sure we could. I've done it myself. There were very few of them.

We will have to deal with the realities of humanity, among which is the need for enough food.

There were fewer of them, but that doesn't mean the idea can't be expanded on.  There must be plenty of additional room out there to plant in if we're talking about piping water that way.  Another reality to consider (and the basis of my argument) is that there is a limit to available water.  It's easy to use it while it exists, why not, right?  What happens when it's gone and you still have hungry people that need food.  At that moment we'll have just passed the problem on down the line to our kids and grandkids all while depleting another resource.  I, like you, hope that they're smarter than we are and can come up with a good solution, but in the meantime I think not doing any additional harm is a good start.       

[Al_Smith]

Again an interesting concept .It would take Caterpillar or most likely some Chinese concern the next 10 years just to make the equipment for such a mass undertaking to start with .If it were some type of pipe line or pipe lines the amount of materials alone would be staggering .

There's a thing called right of way which that alone could be in courts for the next 20-30 years itself .In short a giant can of worms .

[fuzzybear]

There's a thing called right of way which that alone could be in courts for the next 20-30 years itself .In short a giant can of worms .

To get water to the south it will have to pass through First Nation lands. Here in the Yukon that will never happen. Anything that will have an adverse effect on Salmon spawns, caribou migration, or their way of life,   weather real or perceived will never pass with them.  First Nation Lands cover about 75% of the Yukon so they have a huge say in it.
  Of course of our fearless leader Steven Harper will probably come up with some backroom deal to sell out, and trump democracy, like everything else he's done.
FB

[Al_Smith]

Just my feelings ,take them with a grain of salt .In terms of agriculture I think what ever grows best should be cultivated in a specific area where it does best .

Nebraska and parts of Kansas  grow wonderfull spring wheat .Ohio ,Indiana,Iowa and  several  others are in the corn belt .Portions of California produce wonderfull fresh vegatables .

I don't think it's realistic to expect every area in the US and Canada to be able to produce every crop as good as specific other areas .What they do in Mexico I have no idea and could care less .

Further more I don't foresee the North American continent starving for lack of food unless some catastrophic natural event takes place .If it did there is nothing in the power of mankind that will ever take charge over mother nature ,so there nothing that could be done about it .

[mesquite buckeye]

If man had been meant to fly, he would have been given wings. ;D 8) 8) 8)

[mesquite buckeye]

BTW- we should care about Mexico. That's where most of our tomatoes and bell peppers come from, esp in the wintertime. Also most of the tropical fruit.

[Al_Smith]

I try not to knowingly buy anything made or grown in Mexico .That's my perogative I guess . ;)

[mesquite buckeye]

Better not buy an "American" car or truck then. ;D

My Dodge Ram diesel was made in NE Mexico.