Get into logging at WHAT age?

[jstiff]

Hey guys, new to the forum. 

I'm from Minnesota, 44 years old, and I'm considering getting into logging. 

Am I crazy? Probably,  :D.

Would love to hear from people on this forum about what it's like to be a logger. How old are you? Are you still going strong? What equipment do you have and how much volume do you move each year.

I most likely will start at the very bottom. Would like to avoid borrowing 1 million dollars to start out. 

Most likely, I would log pulp/firewood volume in Northern Minnesota. Duluth, Two Harbors area, or maybe northern Wisconsin area.  

If it's feasible, I will cut by hand for a few years till I feel comfortable financing a Harvester or Feller Buncher. 

Maybe you guys will talk me out of it, who knows. 

Any advice is much appreciated! 

[Satamax]

I am a smidge older, 50 yo. Never logged much. Milling and roofing, timber framing, carpentry. I would not consider it, past the heavy hobby side. 40 trees a year would do me fine. 

Good luck. 

[barbender]

 It's a hard business to get into, unless you are starting out with a chainsaw and cable skidder. And then it us a lot if hard work. Certainly doable if it's what you really want to do.

[sawguy21]

With no experience you would be wise to get on with a seasoned crew and work your way up. It is hard work and too many ways to get hurt if you don't know what you are doing and at your age be aware of your limitations. We just buried a long time friend with 60 years experience, he was hit by a falling tree. :'(

[jstiff]

Thanks for the replies so far...

Yes! I would definitely seek experience with a crew if I committed to the idea. 

Does anyone have an opinion on older Ponsse harvesters? 

How many hours are too many for a Ponsse? 

[BargeMonkey]

 I would go work for someone, see what your getting into. Chainsaw and a skidder / small forwarder, pick up work as you go. 

[AndyVT]

I'm 72 and have been logging my 50 acre property for 30+ years so I was about your age when I started. Let me state up front that I would never log as a regular job for the reasons mentioned by others but regularly working my woods is a satisfying and enjoyable experience. I worked my way up from a chainsaw and portable winch to multiple saws, tractor mounted pto winch and forestry equipped dozer which for my scale is ideal. Know your skills and limitations and don't get in over your head and you'll learn when to move up. Good luck 👍 

[barbender]

 When you ask how many hours is too many for a Ponsse, the first question I would ask is how good of a mechanic are you? An older processor will require good mechanical and electrical troubleshooting skills. 

 Jumping right into a cut to length team, if you borrow money and have payments to make, can you move the 150+ cords of wood a week that you should be producing? It's one thing to cut wood, it's another thing to sell it. 

 I've seen guys lose their butts on some really great looking piles of wood that they put up, and ended up with no where to go.

 Markets in northern MN aren't great at the moment. Savanna Pallet quit taking wood for the entire month of November. I don't know how Sappi is sitting. 

 

[Firewoodjoe]

If you know how to log, can fix most daily repairs, can get the wood and can sell the wood. Go for it. You're not too old. But I will say be sure of all that and I'd definitely consider a cutter of some kind. Either one in the beginning (at the stump) or one at the end like a slasher. Either one would be a huge help over doing it all with a saw. And it does pay for itself. I know I wish I would have went in right off with a cutter. Good luck be safe. 

[Dom]

I often think the same, and my biggest challenge is not the equipment knowledge, but how to market the tree. I can't look at a tree or log and determine how to get the best value from it.

In my opinion that likely separate the true loggers from the average person. Knowing the tree species and how to market every stump. 

Can be learned from a crew or a seasoned logger. 

[thecfarm]

Need a way to sell pulp.
When I was cutting on this land, we hauled under someone else's pulp contract. But that that was on a small scale, like maybe a load a month.
We sold logs mostly.
Have you ever logged at all?
Directional falling is a big deal too. Meaning falling a tree to make the least damage.

[jstiff]

thecfarm I've spent a lot of time with a chainsaw, log home building and owned a portable sawmill for a few years. 

But NO actual logging experience. 

I've been to the landing of a few loggers to buy custom lengths in the past, and I was instantly in love with what I saw  :D. 

[jstiff]

Thanks for the replies...a lot of good advice. 

Selling the wood or "moving it" is what makes me nervous. 

Especially as a new guy. 

But an old cable skidder with a loader slasher at the landing until I pay my dues in the industry is what I'm aiming at.
 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Around here it's harder and harder for a little guy to move pulpwood. Most pulpwood contracts are given to producers that can move pretty good volumes day after day. A handcutter with a skidder and slasher wouldn't be able to compete for one of those contracts around here.

[Old Greenhorn]

 

[Ron Scott]

A lot of good advice provided. 

[BargeMonkey]

The iron is around, just don't buy the most clapped out piece you can find and plan to go fulltime and turn a profit. Going into it as a side hustle ? How do you feel about 18hr days, 8x days a wk, and possible borderline starvation sometimes ? Like others said, just how mechanical are you ?  Does your spouse work ? Insurance ? How little can you afford to live on till you've got the ball rolling ? That's where I see guys jump into cutting wood, get in the hole and never get out. I lost an engine, a final drive and almost new tire like Monday thru Thursday one week, over 40k and your gonna have to eat it. Putting 80%+  of the money you make back in, repairs, saws, fuel, parts, lost time, weather, waiting on a job, this is what's going to sink guys. I've done the math for my small operation, on what payments I've got and insurance, fuel, upkeep, 10k a week gross is on the low side to survive if i wanted to cut wood fulltime. I've got some buddy's who are 10-15+ a month just in payments all day, everyone sees the log checks but doesn't see what it takes to keep going. 

[jstiff]

BargeMonkey , great points.

My wife has a good job that would continue while I got things rolling. I'm a great welder, but not that mechanical, so I would need to consider slightly newer machines. I learn fast, though. 

I will not consider this move unless I had a mentor in the industry lined up. 

[stavebuyer]

I have been to a dozen funerals for chainsaw cutters and my circle is not all that big. Risking your life for small change is folly.
Work on your milling or maybe get a truck. Small guys have trouble getting a truck and until the wood moves you won't get paid. If you can't keep a truck busy you won't find one until it's too wet to haul.

[treemuncher]

My suggestion: Get with your state's forestry association. Get your Master Logger Certification first. Learn the safety that course can teach you and implement it, always. You will stand a better chance at survival and working safely. You will likely be able to find work with a crew easily if you have that under your belt. It was the best $100 I ever spent on my education way back when. They covered a lot of subjects in that class that were a benefit to my business.

Take some timber grading courses and other forestry/timber courses with the forestry association. If you don't know what to look for when you're cutting or selling, your wasting time and money. Education is cheaper than the money you can lose if you don't know what you're doing. Your education is an added benefit for customers and employers.

And safety is cheaper than hospital bills, provided you live through a bad event. Keep your head clear and think several steps ahead. 

Work with a crew before you jump into this business. Equipment is fun to run for some of us but there's a lot more to it than just pulling levers and watching chips fly. If you can't fix it yourself, you're likely going to stay in the red and lose money. You will need plenty of good business sense to make it to the black side of the column.

[Firewoodjoe]

The iron is around, just don't buy the most clapped out piece you can find and plan to go fulltime and turn a profit. Going into it as a side hustle ? How do you feel about 18hr days, 8x days a wk, and possible borderline starvation sometimes ? Like others said, just how mechanical are you ?  Does your spouse work ? Insurance ? How little can you afford to live on till you've got the ball rolling ? That's where I see guys jump into cutting wood, get in the hole and never get out. I lost an engine, a final drive and almost new tire like Monday thru Thursday one week, over 40k and your gonna have to eat it. Putting 80%+  of the money you make back in, repairs, saws, fuel, parts, lost time, weather, waiting on a job, this is what's going to sink guys. I've done the math for my small operation, on what payments I've got and insurance, fuel, upkeep, 10k a week gross is on the low side to survive if i wanted to cut wood fulltime. I've got some buddy's who are 10-15+ a month just in payments all day, everyone sees the log checks but doesn't see what it takes to keep going.

☝️ I can make it comfortably on half that and I'm mechanized. (That wouldn't be paying for real
Bad days. But I have money saved for that.)With all insured. Including me. Health and dental and uniforms. Busy loggers dont usually have a money problem, they have a spending problem. 
It's tough and a person must want it or it won't work for them. 

[Firewoodjoe]

I will add that's not buying/paying back stumpage/wood.

[B.C.C. Lapp]

     Good thread.  If your going to do your own cutting and skid with a cable skidder you better be in pretty fair shape.   By the fifth day you'll be getting an idea of just how physically demanding it is going to be.   .

[Hogdaddy]

The iron is around, just don't buy the most clapped out piece you can find and plan to go fulltime and turn a profit. Going into it as a side hustle ? How do you feel about 18hr days, 8x days a wk, and possible borderline starvation sometimes ? Like others said, just how mechanical are you ?  Does your spouse work ? Insurance ? How little can you afford to live on till you've got the ball rolling ? That's where I see guys jump into cutting wood, get in the hole and never get out. I lost an engine, a final drive and almost new tire like Monday thru Thursday one week, over 40k and your gonna have to eat it. Putting 80%+  of the money you make back in, repairs, saws, fuel, parts, lost time, weather, waiting on a job, this is what's going to sink guys. I've done the math for my small operation, on what payments I've got and insurance, fuel, upkeep, 10k a week gross is on the low side to survive if i wanted to cut wood fulltime. I've got some buddy's who are 10-15+ a month just in payments all day, everyone sees the log checks but doesn't see what it takes to keep going.

I want to like this like 5 times....

[teakwood]

I love the woods and if it's in your blood go for it, but you need to now the downside also:

I'm 42 and after 26 years working in construction, logger and sawmiller my body is like a 60 year old office worker. I still go strong but, broken leg, broken hand, broken fingers, knees hurt, my back is bad (do daily exercise to keep working), the getting up in the morning hurts. you will get pinched, bruised, scratched, hurt, the occational falling down branches,.... the list goes on.

[Nealm66]

I believe it's a really bad midlife crisis decision. If in any way possible, find a logger and offer free labor for a couple weeks. You might have to offer paying for your own LNI insurance which around here for a cutter can run around 15-20$ -hour. That should be enough to smarten your decision. Get a chest holster for your cellphone in case of the worst happening. There's so much technique involved in all of it. I just highly advise not diving in if you can figure out a way to wade into it. For me, coming into my 50's is when the body really starts breaking down. The 40's will still play tricks on you 

[Ron Scott]

You might consider using your welding skills and do traveling welding with loggers as one of your regular clients. ;)

[Jk372]

I'd recommend get a job working 4 10s and get a skidder or forwarder and log a day or two a week. That might be enough to satisfy your interest or things might take off. See where it takes you. 

[teakwood]

yesterday, while sawmilling,  i made some kind of bad movement and my back started hurting so bad that i had to quit for the day. that some times happens to me. take a anti swelling pill and rest, next day it's ok again. i started using a back belt, like those lifting belts with suspenders. wow, this things really help, i fell a lot better now. 

[Firewoodjoe]

Yeah age is a factor. But I think it becomes a factor in everything. Even everyday life. Just have to take it easier I guess. That's one thing I wish I would have listened to everyone else is buy a harvester. I should have went in debt day one with a decent harvester. But you can only do what you can finically and mentally handle. Everyone has their own way of making things work. I personally know 70+ year olds falling and bucking everyday. 

[Magicman]

I was 59 when I bought my sawmill and it has been a nice 21 year ride.  Now @ 80 I don't ride as far nor as fast but I am still riding.

With any business, the actual hands-on mechanics is a small part.  That's the fun part.  The tough part is the business part.  Breaking into a new business when all of that business is already being serviced by someone else means that you are trying to edge someone else out.  Your contacts will determine your success.  You need to know where and for whom.  If you are deemed as competition you could be immediately shut out. 

Working for an established logger to gain experience and contacts is good advice.

[jstiff]

There has been a lot of great advice... Thank you everyone!!!!

At this point, my thinking is as fallows...

At my age, the best option is to go the Ponsse Harvester route. 

Cut volume, and NOT go the Hardwood grade route (grapple skidder and chainsaw). It may be more profitable per 1000 bd/ft cut the grade logs, but I don't want to take any of the risks involved. I want to work into my 70's.

I can take a few classes at the Rhinelander community college to learn basic harvester maintenance and also, put some seat time into a Simulator machine. 

Then, work for someone for a few years who's willing to take me on, not only to learn to operate the machines, but learn the ART OF BUYING/SELLING timber. 

The key is getting the wood into the hands of a buyer as fast as possible. 

After that, I would take the leap of faith and borrow the money needed to buy the newest machines possible. 

For me, learning to emotionally handle the big numbers of monthly debt and operating cost will be important.  

Trust!!!

[maineshops]

I got into it at  62 when I retired . I'm 82 now and still goin 'strong'. Don't tell anyone that I only cut and milled 1000 bf last year🤣.
Follow your dream. ...dan

[stavebuyer]

The deal with mechanized is you need to move a lot of wood to make the financial end pencil out. This creates a couple additional challenges. Most mechanized crews end up working as contractors for a major mill. In order run 6-10 loads a day you have to have 6-10 loads a day to cut. Everyone focuses on initial equipment outlay, which indeed is large. Add a years worth of stumpage( 6 loads per day @ 200 working days @ $1000 a load). People who can profitably buy that amount of wood are few and far between. So, you get an equipment loan and the Forester working for ABC paper tells you his company has 3 million acres and he can't wait to put you to work. All goes well through your first winter, you pay your dues, learn a few hard lessons but manage to make your payments mostly on time.

Then the real education begins.

ABC paper shutters paper machine #2 because demand for coated papers continues to shrink. Sorry to say you are now on a reduced quota of 10 loads a week. Takes 10 just to make the equipment note but you hang on until you find out that the corporate office decides that the 3 million acres will be sold to an insurance company owned REIT. They of course have their own contracted forestry management group and your forester buddy that helped recruit you is wearing a new hat on the west coast. Your halfway into your 20K monthly note with equipment you can't sell for enough to cover the balance and you have no wood to cut. For every one


 guy still standing there's 20 that lived the nightmare I just described.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Very few loggers buy and sell their own timber anymore around here. Nearly everybody is a contract logger for somebody with deep enough pockets to buy the stumpage. They tell you where to cut, what your product sorts are, take care of trucking, road building, snow removal, etc. 

To make the economics work the logger needs to focus on cutting and sorting wood, unless they are a big enough operation to have extra man power to take on some of those extra responsibilities which they then bill the buyer of the timber for.

[stavebuyer]

The danger is you are borrowing big money and are dependent on the whims of a corporation who has no obligation to you whatsoever.
Are there some family owned multi-generation local mills? A handful and the crews supplying those mills usually go back a couple generations too.

[Firewoodjoe]

You do not need to be a big producer to be mechanical logging. I'm living it everyday. I don't care what kind of operation you are. From a hand cutter with one grapple Skidder to a conventional 4 machine crew and everything in between. There's three things that will make or break you. Overhead, overhead and overhead! I don't care who's buying it. I don't care who's selling it I dont care how long you have to wait for your return. Overhead needs to be judged and set according to all those in each particular companies situations. And whether you're independent or not you're at some mills mercy. Like I've always said you can't beat them! So join them! In some way shape or form get involved and have a healthy relationship with a mill. And until you're big with multiple employees focus on one thing. We can save money or get things that are more convenient but at what cost? Dont spread you or your money to thin because you can't take care of what's actually keeping you afloat.

[ehp]

Before you spend a cent you need to figure out where your selling your timber , getting it trucked and how much your timber is going to cost you , next you need to learn if your cutting grade timber so you get the most value for your timber , next do not fall for bigger is better cause in most cases it sure is not . Yes they turn big dollar numbers per week but it cost big dollar numbers per week for them to log . The guy I bought the 648 G3 from last fall a year ago was running 3 skidders , 2 tree cutters and a slasher on the landing cutting junk crap hardwood . I got talking to him and he told me he got $600 a load for the hardwood junk as very few logs in this stuff but he would get a few yellow birch veneer per day . I told him those numbers sure didnot work and 7 months later he went broke . There is good money in logging if you watch where you cut and what you cut but you are going to work a lot harder than flipping burgers at McDeath's , It takes a certain kind of person to honestly really want to log , another thing is if you need to see your family everyday and only work a few hours a day in most cases that will not work cause it takes hours on run time to turn enough dollars to live, I know my kids sure like it better when I can be around instead of the normal 7 days a week which is pretty much normal for here , this summer fall I took more time off than any other year to deal with some issues but I still put out loads just not at the rate of normal . If you think this is what you want to do then try it but just try to be smart about it and always remember not everyone is out for your best interest , they are out for theirs . If they can get you to cut timber for less than the rest they will surely let you do that for them

[OH logger]

I couldn't like EHPs post anymore. Being your own boss in the loggging business ain't for sissies.  I sure wish I could see my family more but I do what I have  to do. But Now my son is almost 15 and has gone with me since he was 6 and wants to log with me full
Time when he's done with school so there is a plus side to being your own boss too. But getting started was rough.  I cut a lot of jobs the other guys walked past or high graded. I work alone unless my son is with me.  I had an employee for a while and while it had a few advantages I like working alone.  With him we had to cut more of the lower quality jobs and do more contract 
Logging for other buyers. I hated doing both of those two things.  This job is too hard to
Make very little or break even.   Now working alone again I can concentrate on high quality jobs.  Know your markets and make as many contacts as possible work hard and work smart. It can work if you do these things. And also I started out with a cable skidder and since I was always in a hurry I'd jump on and off the skidder instead of "wasting" time using the steps. Dumb move. I'm paying for that now with my knees.  USE THE STEPS ON THE MACHINES lol

[barbender]

Starting out trying to cut volume is the best way to go broke fast, IMO. Like I said before, it's one thing to cut volume, it's another thing entirely  to SELL it. Makes for a really nice spring break up having 1200 cords piled up and no where to go with it. 

 When your the new guy, you're going to be the first one cut off.

 I didn't grow up around the timber industry, but I was very interested in everything about it. I started driving truck, hauling wood in the winter and working a union construction job in the summer. Then I got a chance to go to work for a logger running forwarder. 

 I ran forwarder and some harvester for 12 years. At the very beginning, I kinda dreamed of having my own CTL team. Now, knowing how much of a push it would take to make it all work, it doesn't really appeal to me anymore.

 I dabble with my cable skidder on small sales, and still run CTL equipment for guys that need a hand. It's low commitment😊

 I'm 48, and I have a long list of relationships I built up in my time in the woods. So I have different places I could get my foot in the door, and it took a long time time to get to that. Long enough, that my interests have changed. YMMV but that's how it went for me. 

 

[Autocar]

I started out in the sawmill business 45 years ago figured out pretty quick that it was alot more fun setting a circle mill up and sawing that first board. But after that it turned into a back breaking job turning logs with a can't hook and carrying 22 foot 2x8's. So I started cutting standing timber for companys then moved on as a one man operation bought a Super M Farmall tractor then a four wheel drive winch/grapple skidder I built. Later in years went to a Treefarmer grapple skidder and a Timberjack cable skidder. With in a few days I will be 76 and for the last few years the grapple skidder sets in my machine shop, I can't climb in and out of it like I did when I was younger. The Timberjack is easy on and easy off. I cut my leg off with a 075 Stihl, broke my leg and broke my collar bone all togather I got hurt three times. Still the best job in the world. I think about the hard male woods of Michigan in the fall and the red and yellow leaves fluttering down on a clear calm fall day. Cutting cherry in northeast Ohio and times in southern Indiana cutting giant yellow poplar. I think about the guy working in a factory stamping out thousands of something or another and here I am setting on a stump thinking about the beauty I see all around me.One peace of advice I pass on to guys is when your looking at standing timber don't think whats this tree worth but to think how long it took to get to a big tree and if it could talk the storys it could tell you. I know you have to look at the value to survive but don't miss the beauty of the woods ! 

[chep]

Autocar for the win. Great post sir. Great reminder of why we work in the woods

[jstiff]

Autocar 

Great reply!!!!!

Grateful man. 

[thecfarm]

I cut my leg off with a 075 Stihl !

I hate to ask, but cut your leg off?

[Peter Drouin]

Wow, A one-leg logger.

[Autocar]

Thecfarm I was limbing a hard maple and I went to cut this small limb off and the saw pinched so I slipped it out and went from the bottom and that is all I remember cut though the first bone and the other bone shattered from my weight . My leg mussel was holding my leg on . Every time my heart beat blood would pump out so I tied my hanky around it and it still pumped blood so I took another hanky that was in my back pocked and tied it above my knee and put a stick in it and twisted it tight to slow the bleeding They put 8 inch steel rods that screwed into the bones and then ran 3/8 inch rods 12/14 inches then clamped them to alain everything. But what hurt was when they went to unscrew the four steel rods. They couldn't find the T tool to unscrew so the doctor sent a nurse to maintaince to get a pair of vice grips. When he snapped the pliers to the rods that vibration and the fact that it wasn't a T handle just a pair of pliers hanging on one side so when he turned them to screw them out the rods would flex a little what a feeling with them screwed into my leg bones I am pretty sure I put dents in that stainless steel table gripping it.  

[bitternut]

Wow, I got a real bad queasy feeling in my stomach reading your post. I take it you were not wearing chaps. Glad that you were able to rig up a tourniquet to slow the bleeding.

[thecfarm]

Now that's a story!!!! 

[shaneyho]

Hey guys, new to the forum.

I'm from Minnesota, 44 years old, and I'm considering getting into logging.

Am I crazy? Probably,  :D.

Would love to hear from people on this forum about what it's like to be a logger. How old are you? Are you still going strong? What equipment do you have and how much volume do you move each year.

I most likely will start at the very bottom. Would like to avoid borrowing 1 million dollars to start out.

Most likely, I would log pulp/firewood volume in Northern Minnesota. Duluth, Two Harbors area, or maybe northern Wisconsin area.  

If it's feasible, I will cut by hand for a few years till I feel comfortable financing a Harvester or Feller Buncher.

Maybe you guys will talk me out of it, who knows.

Any advice is much appreciated!

There is no particular age to start. You can start logging now also.

[Autocar]

One thing about the logging business you either hate it or you love it. If your on the loving end get ready for a excellent life !

[Rhodemont]

Autocar:  Occasionally I grab a saw to make one or two quick cuts, perhaps a small tree that has fallen across a trail.  I rationalize to myself "I do not need my chaps for this".  No more...I am going to over ride that thought with a vision of you.

[B.C.C. Lapp]

Autocar that discription of your accident gave me the shivers.

Just a real good reminder that the first step in the procedure for starting a chainsaw is buckling on the chaps, THEN set the choke and pull. 

[BargeMonkey]

Friend of mine this summer, took off his chaps in heat. Had a fun hobbled walk back to the truck.
 

 
I'm a fan of these, added an ice bag, bigger blood stop bag, better gloves and a spyderco, all my machines that have a cab have 1 of these in it, her car has one, my truck, my boat bag, you never know when.


 I carry one with me on the boat, lucky to find a band aid sometimes.


 

[carpet56238]

Hand-cutting can be hard work, but it's a good way to learn the ropes and save some cash. Plus, it's a good workout!
As for equipment, my friend started with a basic chainsaw and gradually worked his way up to more advanced machinery. It's a long journey, but it's doable with dedication and learning from experienced loggers.