Hardwoods in the northwest?

[M_S_S]

I would think altitude would have a lot to do with why west coast spieces don't grow in the east. Ed

[SwampDonkey]

White birch too in Idaho and Washington. When I was in BC, I never saw any big white birch like we have here in NB. Here it lives a lot longer than aspen, as long as it's not in with fir. When fir dies out, the white birch scalds and dies to.

[thenorthman]

I would think altitude would have a lot to do with why west coast spieces don't grow in the east. Ed

Probably has more to do with water and economics then anything.  The east coast is known for hardwoods, and white pine, lobloly in the south... So importing a species that would then need a market is a little foolish.

The high plains and central US desert keeps most fauna from traipsing over the rockies, people on the other hand carry stuff everywhere.

As far as elevation I've seen ponderosa pine and lodge pole pine at sea leval here, and and doug fir and ceders upwards of 5000 feet or more, past that it changes over to white firs and yellow ceders.

Also in europe they had to start importing doug fir because of our exporting of some disease, and killing off their native pines... Not all of europe but Ireland and France for sure, parts of Germany as well.  (Cromwell burned the native Irish oak forests or turned them into naval ships to get blown up by the Spanish, replanting was considered a bad idea (didn't want anywhere for the natives to be hiding))

[enigmaT120]

I watch a show set in Cornwall, and they frequently have stands of what I could swear are Douglas-fir in the background scenes.  And Swiss needle cast disease is sort of mis-named, as it came from here along with the fir, it just doesn't generally do much harm.  Though it may be demonstrating to the industrial forest land owners why there was mostly hemlock and spruce (and hardwoods) over around Tillamook, originally.  At the right time of year, those stands of fir look like a larch forest changing color.

[mad murdock]

Speaking of the OP, the hardwoods here in the western willamette and Columbia regions may well take a bit this year. There is a tent caterpillar infestation that looks to be growing early and spreading out. I have seen an inordinate number of them on my place particularly in the younger alder stands. According to ODF entomologists they (the insects) don't permanently kill the stands but do curb tree growth for a year or two due to the massive defoliation. Lifted from an email I got from the OWe've got 2 native defoliator outbreaks that have recently emerged, the Western tent caterpillar and the Western oak looper.  I suspect that the caterpillars that Carson is finding is one of these and not gypsy moth.

Amy Grotta alerted me to the Western tent caterpillar outbreak this week and we saw if from the air during aerial surveys yesterday. The majority of what we mapped was in No. Clatsop County (NW of Scappoose/west of Rainier).  We also saw some smaller areas of damage to the south and across the river west of Kelso, WA.  I'll send a link to some aerial pics and I'm working on a map (which I can compare with yours), but I haven't been out to see these areas on the ground yet to confirm everything.  As many calls are coming in, I'm hoping to get a press release out early next week that will have more info for affected landowners, etc.  They seemed to be mostly feeding on alder and the silk tents they make on the tree should be visible.

If he's seeing larvae on white oak, it's likely the Western oak looper, which defoliated a couple of thousand acres in the mid-Willamette Valley last year.  We're not sure what to expect this year, but we've had several reports of larvae already.  No damage is yet visible from the air, but I suspect we'll start seeing it in some areas by next month.   These guys don't produce any tents and while they have a preference for oaks, they'll also feed on other hardwoods and even Doug-fir when it's intermixed with oaks. DF" DF is the initials of the entomologist. What are others seeing in their area as far as bug outbreaks?

[treeslayer2003]

we been lucky the last few years.........gypsy moth is a dirty word here.........had a bad outbreak in the late 80s, trees looked like winter.............killed a lot of high value white oak.
i heard you guys have a new beetle of some sort down in ca. killing hard wood.........just what we need  :(

[mesquite buckeye]

I planted several western pines on my place in Missouri. The deer beat the heck out of them until they get to be over 6 feet. The ones that survived were lodgepole pine, SW white pine and ponderosa pine. The ponderosa pines were doing the best until the last 2 extreme drought years. Some of the nicest ones took a big hit, lost vigor and lots of needles. I don't know if they will make it. The ones from western Nebraska and the inland NW did better than the ones from California.

The climate is so different that I think it will take a couple of generations letting the survivors from different populations cross pollinate to create a stand that is better adapted.

I should note that these trees were planted in the poorest, most eroded acidic clay soil on the farm where even weeds fear to tread.

There are black cherries in the SW extending as far south as Guatemala. The best ones are along watercourses at mid elevations. I think the toughest things for eastern deciduous forest trees coming west would be fire, drought and late season freezes. The coniferous forests have a much larger fire component than eastern North America, and the hardwoods generally fare poorly in fires.

[SwampDonkey]

I've actually never seen hardwood forest ever burn here. I see softwood mixed with white birch and red maple burn and spruce fir mix or white cedar, but never seen sugar maple woods ever burn.

[mesquite buckeye]

They can and do burn in the western parts of the Eastern Deciduous Forest on the prairie margins especially. The western forests (meaning the mountain west) have a very large fire component.

[CJennings]

I would think its related to water and fire. Those vast dry areas that get fires are a major obstacle to eastern hardwoods moving west. It seems to me a lot of the hardwoods want a lot more water than what is available in a large portions of the west. The big herds of bison in the past wouldn't have helped matters either. I know American chestnuts were planted in the PNW by settlers and thrived, and so have other eastern species, but I don't think they could have gotten there without human intervention.

[hardtailjohn]

And for the record Douglas fir has more tensile strength than some Maples, so hard wood is a relative term.

Well said thenorthman!   And let's not forget Larch... here in Western MT we have that and Doug Fir as the closest thing to what the rest call "hardwoods".
John

[enigmaT120]

A guy (Tim Tracy?) showed up at our small woodland owners' banquet Sat. from a local chain of hardwood mills; I can't remember if he said he's a forester for them or a log buyer.  I have his card, anyway.  They buy ash, maple, and alder.  I asked about black cherry and he doesn't know of any mills around who buy it.  If my trees get big enough to sell I'll advertise them, maybe some independent sawmiller will want them.

Edit:  duh, they also buy oak.

[thenorthman]

There is an outfit here that will buy cherry, they don't advertise it, but they pay the same as birch and alder, which granted isn't much but if your sending in mixed loads ya can't complain to much.