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At what point is it worth more?

Started by Firewoodjoe, August 14, 2020, 08:09:50 AM

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Firewoodjoe

Quote from: Skeans1 on August 16, 2020, 12:08:23 AM
@Firewoodjoe
How big are you talking? I've up above 32" with a harvester before it's possible to do.

Quote from: Skeans1 on August 16, 2020, 12:08:23 AM
@Firewoodjoe 
How big are you talking? I've up above 32" with a harvester before it's possible to do.
i know it's possible but it can't be very feasible tree after tree. I've watched guys mess around with big limbs and chewing on big butts and you could have been done with a chainsaw just as fast and not worn on your machine. I don't know, I would have a lot to learn about one for sure. And in regards to old cost as much as new... well I understand but I would think If I financed one I could get a used one for under 2500 a month and I know guys that paid 20,000 a month for a harvester. Is that used machine really going to cost 17,500 a month in parts and down time? I can't see that. Especially my operation. I wouldn't let it cost me down time. Just like now some thing breaks and I do the next thing until parts are ready. I would not be cutting the wood that a 20,000 a month machine would need. 

Skeans1

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on August 16, 2020, 08:36:03 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on August 16, 2020, 12:08:23 AM
@Firewoodjoe
How big are you talking? I've up above 32" with a harvester before it's possible to do.

Quote from: Skeans1 on August 16, 2020, 12:08:23 AM
@Firewoodjoe
How big are you talking? I've up above 32" with a harvester before it's possible to do.
i know it's possible but it can't be very feasible tree after tree. I've watched guys mess around with big limbs and chewing on big butts and you could have been done with a chainsaw just as fast and not worn on your machine. I don't know, I would have a lot to learn about one for sure. And in regards to old cost as much as new... well I understand but I would think If I financed one I could get a used one for under 2500 a month and I know guys that paid 20,000 a month for a harvester. Is that used machine really going to cost 17,500 a month in parts and down time? I can't see that. Especially my operation. I wouldn't let it cost me down time. Just like now some thing breaks and I do the next thing until parts are ready. I would not be cutting the wood that a 20,000 a month machine would need.
They can easy loose a pump or an engine and you'll find out how fast it'll cost more then a payment. 20k a month in a payment for a brand new machine is nuts, mine with insurance is no where near that.

nativewolf

Yeah...that would be $360k a year.  Maybe a 3 year note with high interest.  I mean even a new bear fully tricked out with the best head (h8HD) possible for a wheeled machine, and Ponsse is at a price premium, was a $12k a month note.

Point taken though.  Without a better forwarder you could not move the wood a new harvester cuts and you realize that because you're around many CTL guys.  

Personally I see this more a question of safety and financial risk.  Without a larger forwarder you are only going to move x amount/week.  The harvester would reduce the risk substantially and increase production and leave a nicer site.  It would also allow you to jump quickly when prices move.  Being that you are in a high risk area I could your point on $ value of a move.  You would not want this move to be dependent on pulp production.  

I can't speak to the value of your life.  For me...pretty high.  The less time with a saw the better off we are.  So, if you can find a nice used Ergo or Skeans JD model than I would say strongly consider it.  Make sure you can get the wood out.  Maybe just put it down as an investment in safety.  
Liking Walnut

Firewoodjoe

Yeah these were paid off early. I prolly stretched it a bit lol but even 9-10,000 a month is a lot of break downs I'd think. Sure some months youd spend 10,000 but every month I doubt it. Like I said I've never ran one so Im going off what people say and I observe. And I'm not buying a forwarder so your right I just don't need that kind of machine. I'm glad you guys are on here lol i have to talk to everyone around here and almost every logger in my area says your crazy to hand cut now a days. But I also think that's why I stay busy because there's not many "steady" hand cutters around anymore. 

chevytaHOE5674

I'm a mechanic by nature and love to work on equipment. But running a "cheap" older high hour harvester made me want to pull my hair out. The constant little breakdowns, parts orders, and electrical issues were enough to make a grown man cry. While your enjoying your "low" payment and chasing electrical issues, repacking cylinders, replacing pumps, etc some other crew has a higher payment but didn't play mechanic and cut 4 loads a day while you were waiting for parts and wrenching.

Best day ever was when the old machine went down the road and it was replaced by a much newer much lower hour and more expensive machine. On a slow day the new machine doubled production a good day was 3x. Some of that because it had a stronger head and crane but most was because day in and day out I could sit in the cab and kill trees not troubleshoot issues.

The true cost of a breakdown is the parts and labor to get you up and running but also the lost production that you can never recoup. Down 2 days thats 6+ loads of wood for a harvester. It adds up quick.

Firewoodjoe

So basically hand cut or spend $100,000s of thousands are my options. I may rent a buncher for a week and see what I think bucking piles. I don't know. Keep thinking a see where the future leads. Thanks guys. Conversation has been good. 

chevytaHOE5674

A tracked buncher either hotsaw or barsaw can lay wood down as well as knock big limbs and tops off. One guy around here with a hotsaw with a full 360 rotation head that uses it to limb and top just about everything. I've even seen him get out with his measuring stick and a can of paint and mark his pulp out then grab it correctly with the head as to buck it to length.

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on August 16, 2020, 12:48:44 PM
A tracked buncher either hotsaw or barsaw can lay wood down as well as knock big limbs and tops off. One guy around here with a hotsaw with a full 360 rotation head that uses it to limb and top just about everything. I've even seen him get out with his measuring stick and a can of paint and mark his pulp out then grab it correctly with the head as to buck it to length.
I've consider that but I might as well buy a Fabtek or Deere based with Fabtek head. Then when or if the measure side gives trouble just use as a buncher. 

Corley5

  I had a $1,200.00 a month payment on the Fabtek 133 4 roller I had.  Injector pump, injectors, lift pump, encoders, wiring, AC pumps, condensers, solenoids, switches, relays, fuses, pins, hydraulic pumps, valves, track drives, cylinder rebuilds, etc.  The list could go on.  And then there's the routine expected maintenance stuff like bars, chains, sprockets, filters, fluid, hoses, etc.  If you can afford an old one you can afford a new one.  I've been there.  It was a truly great day for me when it was on a low boy headed out of my yard.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Hogdaddy

I've been thinking about upgrading myself... been thinking about a ryan's dangle head on an exacavator.  Anyone have any experience with those types of setups?
If you gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly!

barbender

I think one of those could work welln if you set the excavator up right with proper cab guarding etc. They don't give those heads away either, for what they are.
Too many irons in the fire

Corley5

Oh ya.  I forgot swing motors.  I also didn't mention that some parts are now obsolete and unavailable including track drives, swing motors, computers and their components.  Good luck finding used parts that aren't whipped.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

nativewolf

Quote from: Corley5 on August 17, 2020, 06:28:16 AM
Oh ya.  I forgot swing motors.  I also didn't mention that some parts are now obsolete and unavailable including track drives, swing motors, computers and their components.  Good luck finding used parts that aren't whipped.
Your in depth and detailed experiences shared here on the forum kept me from even looking at used machines of that era.  Since reinforced by many others.  So, just a thanks for taking the time over the years to report, sometimes that's more useful.
Liking Walnut

moodnacreek

It's a little different with sawmill machines. Most everything was worn out junk when it came here. I could not have afforded to do what I have done any other way .  For one thing the machine is in your yard not 40 miles away at the bottom of the hill in a swamp. Plus I had another occupation and my wife worked. Many years of nights rebuilding sawmill machinery. Only recently have I bought machines that didn't need work. The sawmill income was never steady enough for me to make payments.

Firewoodjoe

The reason I wouldn't buy a Fabtek carrier. I'm looking at the excavator conversions of the late 90s. Lots of dirt equipment had been bought vs woods equipment. More used parts and more parts still being made. The Deere 290,490 120s have a great reputation. Even on this forum. Yes there's till the Fabtek head but some kind of version of those were in service longer I believe due to Deere starting then Fabtek then prentice then cat. Also I've found a older machine usually has less problems than a used low hour machine. The old machine has made it this long for a reason and most of the problems have been addressed or modified. It's like everything else. One guy can do well the next goes broke. Idk 🤷🏼‍♂️ I know guys right now with brand new equipment that is down all the time. Yeah the dealer covers it but down time can't be covered. That's why you see lots of cat 501s with very low hrs. There was a batch that got a bad rep around here. Experience ctl loggers nearly went broke do to it. Sold them with 1000,1200,1400 hrs on them. It's just the way it goes with iron. 

Skeans1

Quote from: Corley5 on August 17, 2020, 06:28:16 AM
Oh ya.  I forgot swing motors.  I also didn't mention that some parts are now obsolete and unavailable including track drives, swing motors, computers and their components.  Good luck finding used parts that aren't whipped.
Seems like the track drives out of the Fabtek were 690 Deere, which computer the iQan or the Joral both are still available with a retrofit.

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: Skeans1 on August 17, 2020, 08:38:21 AM
Quote from: Corley5 on August 17, 2020, 06:28:16 AM
Oh ya.  I forgot swing motors.  I also didn't mention that some parts are now obsolete and unavailable including track drives, swing motors, computers and their components.  Good luck finding used parts that aren't whipped.
Seems like the track drives out of the Fabtek were 690 Deere, which computer the iQan or the Joral both are still available with a retrofit.
133s or 153s 

Maine logger88

All my stuff is in the mid to late 90s and it's been producing 65 to 70 ton per day with one operator. But I also don't mind wrenching and I'd rather tinker than make big payments. But it's certainly not for everyone. Also this is whole tree equipment I don't know hardly anything about old ctl stuff or new ctl stuff for that matter 
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: Maine logger88 on August 17, 2020, 02:17:40 PM
All my stuff is in the mid to late 90s and it's been producing 65 to 70 ton per day with one operator. But I also don't mind wrenching and I'd rather tinker than make big payments. But it's certainly not for everyone. Also this is whole tree equipment I don't know hardly anything about old ctl stuff or new ctl stuff for that matter
Your doing good. I wish I could tree length with circle saw. Most people just don't want it anymore. It's simple production. I've considered doing "inwoods" slashing then forwarder it out. But I'd have more iron and still trimming with saw. Might as well try a harvester. 

Maine logger88

Yes for your area and with what you have already for equipment a processor definitely makes more sense. I'm just saying it can be done with old tired iron but you have to work on it yourself and if something breaks that you can't afford at the moment go back to running saw till you can. I completely get what others are saying about production with a new machine and not as much down time and they will probably be more successful than me in the end. I just don't want to have to run a piece of equipment 75 80 hours a week. I have been doing that lately but only cause I want too And have nothing better to do lol lol lol
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

Skeans1

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on August 17, 2020, 10:05:34 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on August 17, 2020, 08:38:21 AM
Quote from: Corley5 on August 17, 2020, 06:28:16 AM
Oh ya.  I forgot swing motors.  I also didn't mention that some parts are now obsolete and unavailable including track drives, swing motors, computers and their components.  Good luck finding used parts that aren't whipped.
Seems like the track drives out of the Fabtek were 690 Deere, which computer the iQan or the Joral both are still available with a retrofit.
133s or 153s
The only difference between the two is the undercarriage size otherwise they're the same exact machine. From memory the 133 used a D4 carriage so the rollers, rails, sprockets and pads where the 153 used a D5.

Firewoodjoe


barbender

The problem with harvesters is the complexity of the machines. Corley's 501 is probably one of the simpler harvesters, and he said he was really happy to see it go down the road. A guy with decent mechanical skills can keep an older skidder, buncher or loader going. That guy can keep an old harvester going too, but you're going to spend a lot of time down scratching your head, and some of the electrical components can be brutal. I have a buddy running a Ponnse Ergo harvester that probably has 35,000 hours on it. He has owned it since it had about 4000 hours, so they have grown old together in a sense. He makes a good living with it, contact cutting for the company I work for. However, there is no way you would want to try to keep that machine running. He literally knows the the thing inside and out, and all of its many quirks. I think Ponsse would even prefer he scrapped it, they've done a lot of computer updates and such on it and it is a major headache. My opinion- you don't want an old harvester like that. If someone made a dead simple one with analog measuring or something, maybe. But I don't think that exists. Bell, a forestry conversion with a Ryan's head, a Timbco like Barge has, or a small rubber buncher are the only things I see dovetailing into your operation without totally overwhelming the rest of your equipment.
Too many irons in the fire

Skeans1

To the 490 question do they work yes do they work as well as a true harvester/buncher with the factory boom and tight or no tail swing no. Something you'd have to get use to and use to fast is your not turning a ton depending on how tight you cut your rows I remember look at them as a kid around the time we got our 653 one of the main reasons was it's a factory built buncher with limited tail swing with the counter weights on the back.

barbender

One of our contract crews runs a 653 in front of 2 Ponsse Ergos. It was VERY well used when he got it, he's had to put some money into it but not much, especially considering how much wood it puts on the ground. They're a nice little buncher, IMO. One plus for an older buncher for firewoodjoe, is that it would only need to run one day to keep them in wood the rest of the week. I guess the same could be said for an old processor, too. But that ol buncher won't leave you scratching your head and clinging to your wallet when electrical nodes go out at $3000 a piece, or something along those lines. 

 Joe, only you know what can work for you. I'm just sharing some of the things I've seen guys struggle with. On the flip side, I was talking to one of the local Ponsse mechanics yesterday, he was out in New Mexico servicing a couple of ancient (in CTL terms) Ponsse machines, an S16 harvester and S15 I think forwarder. Those would be mid to late 90's I think, and they're still running. I know of another logger up here that went from a Ponsse team to an excavator conversion processor and a single bunk Fabtek, he says he's making more money now🤷‍♂️
Too many irons in the fire

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