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Dog advice needed

Started by Don P, May 19, 2020, 11:28:22 PM

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Don P

The shepherd we got as a rescue in Jan isn't working out. She bonded well with my wife immediately. She is afraid of me, pacing, no trust, I cannot touch her. Women are almost ok, men, forget it. It seems pretty obvious there was a bad experience and it was a guy. This is not our first abused dog but certainly the most damaged. She is on a light dose of doggie downers hoping to take some of the anxiety off. I feed her, she will sit, away, and it takes a moment or a couple of gentle commands and then I put her bowl down and praise her. She will take a treat from me at arms length if I am on the floor, when I stand she is well away. Until last night and tonight I've not raised my voice in her presence. When I let her out she will hang out with Michelle, she wants nothing to do with me. That is all ok, I'm willing to give her all the time and space she needs.

Until. The past 2 nights she has hit me in the knee, open mouth, light nip, on the fly. Totally out of the blue, no incident that either of us can recall. Did I mention she is lightening fast and sneaky. I am not concerned for myself, this dog isn't big enough to really hurt me. I'll tolerate a fair amount but not a dog that might bite someone.

So here she sits, on death row. I really don't want to and we are in pretty much self quarantine right now, I don't have to immediately. As we talked tonight I said anything is on the table because she is pretty much out of options. I'm looking for ideas.

doc henderson

that is tuff Don.  how old is the dog.  you sure do not want a child to get on the wrong end of a dog like that.  a fearful dog, is worse than a mean dog, cause you never know what or when.  Kids will just go up and wrap arms around ect.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Southside

Don, that behavior sounds like fear biting, it's her lack of confidence, not fear of you most likely. The meds may not be helping ironically.  Ignoring her may work better than the food reward / sit routine, problem is she sees you as being dominant, probably was never socialized, and doesn't know how to react to being in that position, so her reaction is fear/self preservation. I realize that isn't an answer, but finding the issue first is key. 

I will talk with a couple other handlers and trainers in the morning and see what ideas we can come up with. 
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Don P

Yeah, I'm pretty bummed.
 The vet figured she is between 1 and 2, we got her in January. A child or older person is my worry and why I can't tolerate this if she doesn't straighten up.

Thanks Jim, that's a different perspective I hadn't considered. oops we just doubled her dose tonite to see if that would help without making her a zombie but that is a heck of a way to live. I'll step into the background tomorrow and see if that helps any.

Walnut Beast

Hopefully Jim can get some helpful information for you and things can get worked out. I understand how you feel. It's going to take a lot of love and work with her. If you could play ball with her or something like that to get her really wrapped around your finger that would really help. We have a couple German Shepherds and they are high octane. If kids are not around all the time I personally would just keep her and the kids apart when they are just to keep a situation from happening if that would be possible. 

Roxie

Tragic news.  My experience with my German Shepard was to learn that not all can be saved. 

I had raised her from a pup and the boys were young and there was never an issue in nine years. She first showed aggression when the boys were playing with the children in the neighborhood. She took hold of my son's thigh when he was walking away from her and towards the other boys. She didn't break the skin but left a bruise. I made a vet appointment to look for a physical reason and when I walked into the vets office she became Kujo. The vet had me take her back to the car and gave me a tranquilizer and said I should come back in an hour and that she would be unconscious. I drove around and returned but she was not changed at all. 

He explained that if she were human she would be diagnosed as psychotic and locked away. He said that at this point she knew who I was but it was only a matter of time before she lost that too. We put her down. 

We were fortunate that the vet knew the medical history and her behavior prior to her flip to the dark side. I have no solution to offer but not all can or should be saved. 
Say when

Bruno of NH

When we got Smiley I think she was man shy because of being mistreated. 
But she went the opposite way and is stuck to me like glue.
I have had dogs my whole life.
Growing up we had a toy poddle didn't like anyone but my Dad.
She had to be put down.
Sorry to hear this.
I find some Shepards to be very nervous dogs.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

WV Sawmiller

   My wife has raised German Shepherds since before we were married and most were very confident dogs. Her first dog saved her from a break in attempt from a former angry student at her home early one morning. She finally let her dog out and she attacked the guy. The police picked him up shortly thereafter at the ER getting shots and stitches. 

  My wife had one that was a coward which my wife could not tolerate so she got another then the first one got braver at least when she was there. She became very protective of my wife. I'd take up time with her and she loved me but if my wife came out she would even turn on me. Since I was working away from home there was no way I was going to get rid of a dog that protective of my wife. We had to put her down Christmas Day 2 years ago at about 18 y/o which is very old for a shepherd.

   As a kid we had a very shy dog and I gentled him by jealousy. I could get close but not pet him. I'd call my other dog and sit and pet and praise her with the shy dog nearby then suddenly the shy dog would come up behind and I'd find him sliding his muzzle under my arm wanting his attention too. Finally he became confident and friendly.

   For your dog I would try calm talk and lots of petting and see if he will respond. If he is not dog aggressive you may try the jealousy  trick with another dog near by and pet and praise the other dog and see if the shepherd doesn't want in the act. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

doc henderson

Don, I have hesitated to give too much advice, as it is a personal decision, and our pets are like our children.  all dogs have the potential to harm other animals and humans.  My first GS I over dominated.  she was not mean, but if I told her bed, she would almost knock my kids over to get in her bed.  she bonded with my wife and I first as the kids were young.  if she was on the bed, and the kids jumped on, she would lunge a bit as if to protect us and threaten the kids.  she got thrown off the bed, and trained she was not above the kids.  she was a puppy.  Libby our current one is confident, and well behaved.  she gets a little rough playing with other dogs, but is not trying to hurt them.  even the cats crawl all over her and groom her.  I was brought up that there needs to be an alpha over a dog, and they are not to be in charge.  if Libby is barking at a dog in the street, or chasing/stalking a squirrel, I can call her off.  Even if you gain the trust of this dog, not so sure it will translate to the ups man ect.  If this one bonds with and protects you wife, men may be at risk.  not sure what the final answer is.  Tough, but I am sure you guys will make the best decision given the dogs behavior.  good luck.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

alan gage

I haven't read the replies but will try to relate a short story (but it might turn long) about a friend of mine. He retired as a pastor and I knew he had been on the lookout for a dog but got frustrated trying to adopt from a shelter because he wanted a farm dog but they wouldn't let a dog go to a home without a fenced in yard and a bunch of other jazz.

One day when out for a walk in the woods my dog and I came across another dog. Definitely not a rottweiler but that's the best way to describe the coloration. Smallish dog, about 30 pounds (once it got some food in it). It was skittish and wouldn't let me get near but I could tell it kind of wanted too. I turned to walk back to the car and called it to follow. It followed at a far distance. I sent my dog out to be the greeting committee while I hung back. They sniffed and got along fine. The dog started following us a little closer. Finally I just stopped and avoided eye contact and it slowly crept up until it was standing next to me. I reached down to pet him and it was like he just melted. Just leaned hard against my leg and seemed so relieved.

We still had about a mile to get back to the car and he still wouldn't follow close. I was afraid he might spook and take off. Nervously I bent down to pick him up, not knowing what his reaction would be, and he let me pick him up and didn't so much as wiggle the rest of the way back to the car. Now I melted.

The dog seemed too good to be true. He was calm (but I figured starving probably had a little to do with that) and got along well with other people and dogs. He was ravenous but as a test I reached down multiple times to take his food bowl away while he was eating and he never so much as growled. I contacted my friend the pastor and told him about the dog. A week later he made the drive up to get him.

They made fast friends and were inseparable. Partly because Emmet (the dog) was such a good dog but I found out later it was also partly because he developed separation anxiety. Every so often I'd receive a picture of them and talks of their adventures. Then one day I got a call from a very distraught friend. He'd been out working in the shop with the dog and had badly cut his hand with a saw. Lots of panic and probably lots of yelling from both he and his wife who came out from the house to take him to the hospital. But at first they didn't notice anything strange with the dog.

The dog had always been attached to the pastor but he liked the wife as well. The dog had a cushion on the sofa where he would watch TV with them at night and then, just before going to bed the wife would give the dog a treat. That was the routine.

Well first night back from the hospital they go to sit on the couch and the pastor, with one hand badly messed up, needs help getting his boots off. The wife bends down to pull off his boots and with no warning the dog launches at her. No real damage done and they don't get worked up. To the dog it looked like she was threatening the pastor. The pastor did immediately rebuke the dog and that was the end of it. They figured it was just a fluke.

Next day dog seems fine. Everything is normal. Time for bed and the wife gets the dog's treat, hands it to him, and he bites her in the face with no warning. Best they can figure is that when Lynn cut his hand the dog blamed the wife. She came rushing out, there was lots of loud talking and obvious panic, and then rushed him off, leaving the dog home alone (which it did not like at all).

The pastor told me he wasn't so much concerned for him and his wife but that they have grand kids over all the time and from this point on he didn't know if he could trust the dog around the kids. The dog had always been fine with them before but he'd always been fine with the wife too. What if a grand kid ran up and wanted to wrestle grandpa? He also knew he didn't want to pass the buck by giving the dog to someone else and then having something bad happen to them.

I didn't have any great advice. I told him I'd talk to my local vet (who used to be part of his congregation) about it. The vet was kind and understanding but obviously had no tolerance for dogs that bit. I was hoping maybe he'd seen similar cases where there had been a bit of "temporary insanity" but his belief was that once a dog showed aggression it could no longer be trusted to not do it again. He had multiple stories to relate of people who kept similar dogs who ended up biting their children, sometimes resulting in permanent disfigurement. I regretted telling the pastor I'd talk to the vet because now I had to tell him what he said.

Turned out it didn't really matter. He'd come to the same conclusion on his own. Since we'd talked the dog had shown more and more aggression to the wife. With a heavy heart he had the dog put down. Not saying that's what you should do. Just relating a story. Best of luck, Don.

RIP Emmet:
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BradMarks

Ours is a rescued border collie mix, not from a shelter, but a bad situation. About 7 months old when we got him. Female owner. He was left at home all day inside, only on a leash when outside.  Kinda normal for working people. Protective of property and a barker. Probably his new freedom was overwhelming. We had a biting incident with my 3 yr old granddaughter, out of the blue, within a week.  She was hand in hand with grandma outside and Sonny latched on. Almost killed him on the spot.  Jealousy, jealousy, jealousy.  He had found a new home and she was a threat.  He bonded with my wife more so than me initially. 2 yrs later he still emits a low half growl to anybody threatening his space if surprised or someone he is not comfortable with. Great with other dogs. Kindness, reassurance, supervision, and always telling him how much he is loved seems to have worked. Takes treats nicely and receives hugs from the 5 yr old now. They're pals now. BTW, Sonny was the first dog we ever had behavior issues with.

low_48

Recently there was a news story about a gal in Northern IL that was killed by a rescued french bulldog. So size does not prevent injury. Not saying you are in danger, but be careful. Sorry, can't offer any advice on the dog's behavior.

WV Sawmiller

   When we first married my wife's shepherd I mentioned earlier, had her first litter of puppies and neighborhood kids came and poked at the puppies through the fence so the dog hated kids. Shortly after we got married my wife got pregnant with our son and I was in USMC getting shipped to Okinawa. I brought my wife over and we lived out in town and she brought the dog so she could get used to the baby from the start. We introduced her as soon as we got home. When he was a few months old he reached for the TV cord and we yelled at him to stop so he did not get hurt then the dog rushed over like she was going to reinforce our edict. We quickly grabbed her and told her no so she knew it was not her job to discipline the kids. We were walking on the base as few months later pushing son in his umbrella stroller and we met a Japanese lady on the other side of the road pushing a baby and our dog got very upset thinking she was stealing our child till we stopped and brought her over to show her our son was still safely with us. I watched her one day a bout 3 years later asleep at the end of the sofa as our son sneaked up and jumped off the sofa on to her. Of course this startled her and she reached around to bite in self defense and saw who it was then just got up and walked away. She'd likely have bitten me for that but she knew to be more tolerant of the kids. They are amazing animals.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Gary_C

My vet told me once to never ever trust a Shepard and after a bad experience with a neighbors Shepard I never will. 
I was talking to the neighbor in his machine shed with his dog laying on the floor nearby and when I said goodbye, turned away and walked to the door the dog came up off the floor silently and bit me on the back of my thigh so hard I howled in pain. So it was without warning or threat to anyone that the dog attacked. 
Sorry but do not trust a Shepard.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Walnut Beast

Quote from: Gary_C on May 20, 2020, 04:09:59 PM
My vet told me once to never ever trust a Shepard and after a bad experience with a neighbors Shepard I never will.
I was talking to the neighbor in his machine shed with his dog laying on the floor nearby and when I said goodbye, turned away and walked to the door the dog came up off the floor silently and bit me on the back of my thigh so hard I howled in pain. So it was without warning or threat to anyone that the dog attacked.
Sorry but do not trust a Shepard.
I disagree! Every dogs different just like people are

Southside

WV - you married your wifes Shepard? I didn't think you were a native to those hills?  :D
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WV Sawmiller

  I remember hearing our old shepherd whining in pain and discomfort and walked over to see what was going on and our then 3 y/o son had her by the tongue walking with his arms over his shoulder walking leading her. I could not have done that but my children could. This the same one that attacked/defended my wife at the break in.

 When I was a kid the dogs were barking and Mom went to open the screen door and or old Shepherd Rex jumped in front of the door, laid down and would not move even after we kicked the bottom of the door and told him to move. We finally spotted the cottonmouth he was laying on that Mom would have stepped over had she been able to open the door and step out as planned. We came from the back and killed the snake.

 We had one when I was about 3 y/o and riding in the back seat with us and he bit/nipped me (I probably deserved it) and I bit him back on the nose as hard as I could. He never bit me again. We just had to have an understanding.

 Sorry - I trust German Shepherds.

@Southside  - I think you've been locked up too long and getting cabin fever. :D
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

YellowHammer

There is no place whatsoever for a biting dog.  That being said, other than a crazy dog, all dogs are pack animals and translate peoples behavior into pack behavior, while people generally only understand people behavior.  

Some people can understand their language, while some people try to force people behavior on dogs.  

Everybody knows about alpha males, there are also alpha females, too.  A dogs behavior is caused by her personality and her experiences, and her intentions, and sometimes those are extremely difficult to train out or even understand. 

I used to love watching Caesar the dog whisperer because he translated everything into pack behavior.  He has a knack for it. Even better, he could translate people behavior into dog behavior.    

Since you are feeding her, and commanding her, you are the Alpha male. She has been either trained or mistreated to be suspicious of an Alpha male previously, and she has bonded to your wife, but is she "adopting" your wife, or is she subservient to her?  Who is the Alpha female?  It sounds like from the little I've read maybe the dog considers herself to be the Alpha female and is adopting and protecting your wife while trying to exert herself and position over you.  It's actually not uncommon for a dog, who is the center is attention, or gets a lot of attention from a person,  to think they are the alpha female pack leader, and make moves to make the current pack leader aware of their status. 

Just like like people, Alphas generally are the ones who get all the attention, while rarely and only judiciously giving it back.  

In dog worlds, a nip is a nip, a bite is a whole different thing.  And she didn't bite you.  That is important. However, if you don't understand what her nips mean, they she will probably go higher up the scale to make sure you understand.  

One of the worlds most famous and capable gun dog trainers, Mike Sterwart, Wild Rose kennels, Oxford Mississippi, (check out his webpage to see his credentials) once told me that a pack leader never takes their position for granted, and even the simple and sometimes cute act of a dog stepping on his foot is not tolerated, it's a sign of disrespect, no different than a human guy stepping on yours.  Mike is a dog whisperer in the highest degree and I've seen him train dogs to do amazing things, and he never uses corporal punishment, or even shock collars, but a lot of "firmness".  He understands their minutest body language.  Imagine, to a dog, or a dog whisperer, what nipping you in the legs mean?  

I don't know what it means, I'm not there, but it means she wants you to do "something."  

I've got a rescue dog, his name is Lucky, a mix of pit bull and Dalmatian.  He's named lucky because I got him before he was put down.  He wasn't the easiest to work, he still isn't, but he's a good dog.  

One of the best things I've done with him is walk him, on a leash always, as a pack would, keep him behind me, he's not the pack leader, I am and get him involved with me.  Dogs live to run, and running or walking is essential pack behavior.  Maybe take yours for walk, on a leash, or just a walk with no distractions, no other dogs, just you and her.  Show her you are not such a bad guy after all.  Oh, another rule of training is never have a dog who is not under full command inside a house without a leash.  A leash is how a dog is controlled, physically.  A dog in a house should understand it's your house, not theirs and should always be Under command. Any command, even something simple, commanded to a place, to sit, to lay and that can't be done, under training, without a leash.  

Anyway, I'm a dog lover, but not a professional trainer. I have been bitten before, so nothing is foolproof, but there is always a reason for a dogs behavior, including nipping, biting, etc. But it's a doggie reason, a pack reason, not generally a human reason.  

Anyway, I hope you can work it out with the dog.  I hope I didn't say anything offensive, translating human behavior into dog. If so I apologize.    
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Be smarter than the sawdust

Don P

I appreciate all these responses, thank you all.

 Working on other folks houses and being on their turf I've generally gotten along but have had encounters, the most memorable that comes to mind was when I rounded the back side of a house we were working on, inside the fenced back yard, and their psycho border collie removed both my shirt pockets and was hanging from my elbow. That was the least concern at the moment as the two Danes were coming to see if their little buddy needed backup. Luckily one of my coworkers distracted them and the other opened the gate. That dog also got the HVAC guy. I have strong feelings on what should be done with that one and I didn't keep it to myself :D. The only breed I have prejudice against is chows, but I've known a few good individual ones.

I scolded her hard the first time and put her out till late that night. She came up and laid down at my feet on the porch then and I thought we had an understanding. When she did it again last night I was large and loud and terrified her. She is back to square one. She has taken a few treats today with me laying on the floor but is very anxious and skittish. We've had an alpha female shepherd before, I don't think that's her. However something YH said does ring there. She went to work with my wife a few times, stayed basically under her desk and growled at visitors a few times, that was the end of that and then the lockdown hit so most work has been from here with just us around. She will generally only approach me from the rear, which I was allowing hoping she would literally "come around". I think Jim is on to a good bit of it, she has a confidence problem that we need to try to get her past.

We usually only use a leash when away from home but I agree, we should take a few walks on lead and see how that goes.


mrcaptainbob

Family member had a pooch. It was very, very afraid of most everything, most everyone. I've had dogs all my life but never saw one like this. They lived in a mobile home that had the furnace central and on one wall of the main hallway. That dog would NOT pass that furnace. It also would NOT get near me! Would skulk to the ktichen if I was in the living room. Felt bad for her. One day I took her out for a walk. She wasn't having it. The lady took her on the leash and tied that to a tether in the front yard. I krept out, pooch was VERY wary and skulked as far away as possible. I ignored her, but laid down well within the circle of reach for her. On my back, eyes closed. Took a while, but she became inquisitive enough to come over and sniff my outstretched hands. I just let her do all the sniffing she was comfy with.
Eventually I started talking to her. Her name and 'good doggy' talk/whispers.
She eventually warmed up enough that I could take her for short walks.
  A couple years later they moved from that mobile home to another, in fact, just up the street a ways.
I took Pooch's bridle and we went for a 'walk'. A one way walk. To the new place. One of the most profound things happened. Pooch went into THAT house...sniffed around (off leash) and came back to me panting and, dare I say, smiling!! She approved!! Went through the similar hall way, all rooms. NOT A PROBLEM!! So, I releashed her and we went for a loooong walk around the mobile park. From that day forward, pooch would great me with her butt in the air, forarms-to-elbows down on the ground...with such tail wagging joy !!! Profound change can hardly describe it all. From then on, I could not sit on their couch without Pooch jumping up next to me and leaning her back on me. ON me!
  Life's changes have split that part of the family, and now, I have not seen that sweet pooch in more than a few years. I have no doubt, Pooch and I would be okay for another lonnng walk together.
  What I'm saying is...long winded though it may be...is to allow your dog to come to you. Sit down with your back to your dog. Allow the sniffing. Don't look harsh at the dog. Making occasional eye contact is fine. Dogs need to see our eyes. They have a great ability to know our feelings. No fright from you. No anger or suspicions. Maintain an honest and strong postive feeling toward a good relationship and that your dog will enjoy a new friendship.
  I've seen it happen many times. And many times it happened to me.

  Good luck.....


Gary_C

Quote from: Walnut Beast on May 20, 2020, 04:31:57 PM

I disagree! Every dogs different just like people are
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on May 20, 2020, 04:47:19 PMSorry - I trust German Shepherds.
I know everyone likes their own dogs but all I am saying is that specific dog breeds were created by breeding for certain traits over many years and generations and you can never ignore their built in DNA code. Well trained dogs are certainly man's best friend and can do some amazing things at times but you cannot ever erase their built in genetic traits, especially when children are involved.

Pack mentality is a whole different subject. As my father-in-law used to say, a rich man has one dog and a poor man has two. Plus one dog will generally stay home but more than one will run all over the neighborhood.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

doc henderson

Humans are the same, and are animals.  we have basic urges and instinct.  many of these we have trained out of our kids.  some instincts are good like fear of strangers.  some humans kill, rape, or steal from others.  Most of us have the desire to protect out family and this is an instinct all animals have and in nature this helps children survive to reproduce.  When we talk about civilization, we are talking about training that society has imposed so we do not all kill each other and can survive.  We all learn to depend on each other, and more survive.  Some humans suffer from bullying at a critical time and do not feel like part of the pack, and lash out.  some have drug and alcohol problems.  some have mental illness.  some have PTSD.  So Don, the reason this dog is behaving the way he does is poss. both nature and nurture.  We will never know!  We love our Shepards, as we did our labs.  We had a Blue healer, and they are definitely highly bread for a purpose.  If you scolded him, he would always whip his mouth like he was going to bite, but never did.  He would heard tumble weeds in the yard. Our lab would chase after blue roc, and come back with mouth of orange clay as a puppy that had never hunted..  so there is something to that.  But GSs that are trained as attach dogs, and well trained, can be turned on and off to a degree.  We are all animals that have been "mostly" well trained.   :)
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

WV Sawmiller

   My wife used to do Shtzhund training with several of her shepherds - basic police work with tracking, obedience and bite work. The bite work was the fun thing for the dog as it was a basic extension of tug of war. They started puppies on a burlap bag then when older on a puppy tug (a canvas tube filled with rags), then a soft sleeve and finally a hard sleeve on the trainers arm. The dog was taught to only attack the obvious sleeve. Once trained the trainer would put on a hidden sleeve under a heavy coat, force that arm into the the dogs mouth then resist. The dog was trained to hold on as long as there was resistance then release and bark and hold at bay when the "bad guy" stopped struggling. After a session or two the dog learned to bite a bare arm. At the end of a training session and doing bite work the trainer would release the sleeve and the dog would carry the sleeve back with him. When a bunch of them were training and a particular dog was under performing they would tie the dog to a post in a line and work each in turn. This excited them all waiting for their turn. The poor performer got to watch all the others do the bite work then when it came his turn they'd walk him over and put him in his crate. It was a very humbling experience and in every case on the next session the dog performed better. Kind of like a bunch of kids all getting treats but one.

    I don't know if something like that will work with this dog or not. You might let him observe other dogs getting rewarded for good behavior and him not getting and him not getting a reward for poor behavior and see if that helped.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Don P

I think we are doing some better this morning, turkey and treats are hard to resist :). Some friends have a dog that is all over me when we get together, she likes to meet and greet and get pets from everyone. That might be a good angle to try whenever we can get together again.

Early on I realized I was too big for her to be comfortable around so I do try to give her lots of opportunities with me low, laying on the floor, sitting on the step below the porch so she can approach from behind and sniff, etc, quiet works better than any tones, even higher and lighter ones but I am trying to get her used to me talking. A fair number of dogs have passed through here, drop offs or just lost. Some we've kept, some we've found their home or homes for. We had been without one for a couple of years. She is the first that we went and got from the shelter and she is pretty unique to my experience. Hopefully she'll come around.

Southside

Sounds like progress, just let her be the one to push the progress as long as it's going in the right direction, her pace. Dogs are creatures of habit, the more regular and routine things are the more comfortable they become with it, (truth be told it's the same with humans for better or worse) which is why you can train a dog to sit there in a firefight and not shut down before it is their time to go to work.  
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