Wake Up Call for Green Energy

[Ianab]

Before WWII China was already the only place in the world for many of the rare earth minerals.  The USA had 1 mine, it closed after a huge spill of toxic waste but kept processing.  It's processing again, fyi.  It has trouble competing with China

Are we talking "Rare Earth" or Lithium? Both are needed to build electric vehicles. China is actually #6 in known lithium deposits, behind the USA and Australia. But the final refining and processing is mostly in China. Cheap labour and less environmental rules? 

Thing is the Chinese companies have gone all in on electric vehicles. You may not be seeing them in the most of US, but I was just reading up in the new MG electric hatchback that's for sale here. It's freaking 430hp, with instant torque. It's basically a "super car" off the line. I don't know what the long term reliability is like, but as most electronics is now Chinese made, and EVs are more like a smartphone with wheels, they will probably get the bugs worked out. 

From what I can see online, the USA actually has the most geothermal generation of any country, but it's only 0.4% of total generation. But KNOWN reserves and current technology suggest that can be increased over 20X. Like a 10% boost to the National grid, with reliable renewable generation. This isn't pie in the sky wishful thinking. Geothermal power stations are already operating, and have been for ~60 years. They supply 10% of NZ electricity now, and that can be expanded considerably here as well. . 

Are there potential problems? Will it cost money? Of course. Elon's latest rocket also blew up, but it's counted as a successful mission because it got further than the last one, and didn't destroy the launch pad. So they have learnt a lot more rocket science in the process. Not everything Elon promotes works, but the ones that do are pretty dang cool. 

[SwampDonkey]

Unless everything else is different on them trucks besides battery power, they will be rust buckets in 10 years unless it's drove in the lower tier states. Everywhere else that deals with winter driving they will be rust buckets like gas powered ones. Any rust through at all up here and your vehicle fails inspection, even if it's the chrome bumper. The battery will be shot, most likely by 7 or 8 years anyway. It will then become a money pit. No savings what so ever. Keep dreaming of better things. Eventually they will hit on something better. After all, going to the moon was fresh plowed ground. Even the microcomputer came along. Also, it turns out the welding machines had to be re-enginneered because of welding together two different thicknesses of metal and also the consistency of the welding. Space suits were brand new, without them, no one was walking on any moon. Even if you went up there and sat in a capsule, how long will you sit in your own excrement? :D

[nativewolf]

Before WWII China was already the only place in the world for many of the rare earth minerals.  The USA had 1 mine, it closed after a huge spill of toxic waste but kept processing.  It's processing again, fyi.  It has trouble competing with China

Are we talking "Rare Earth" or Lithium? Both are needed to build electric vehicles. China is actually #6 in known lithium deposits, behind the USA and Australia. But the final refining and processing is mostly in China. Cheap labour and less environmental rules?

Thing is the Chinese companies have gone all in on electric vehicles. You may not be seeing them in the most of US, but I was just reading up in the new MG electric hatchback that's for sale here. It's freaking 430hp, with instant torque. It's basically a "super car" off the line. I don't know what the long term reliability is like, but as most electronics is now Chinese made, and EVs are more like a smartphone with wheels, they will probably get the bugs worked out.

From what I can see online, the USA actually has the most geothermal generation of any country, but it's only 0.4% of total generation. But KNOWN reserves and current technology suggest that can be increased over 20X. Like a 10% boost to the National grid, with reliable renewable generation. This isn't pie in the sky wishful thinking. Geothermal power stations are already operating, and have been for ~60 years. They supply 10% of NZ electricity now, and that can be expanded considerably here as well. .

Are there potential problems? Will it cost money? Of course. Elon's latest rocket also blew up, but it's counted as a successful mission because it got further than the last one, and didn't destroy the launch pad. So they have learnt a lot more rocket science in the process. Not everything Elon promotes works, but the ones that do are pretty dang cool.

Rare earth.  The USA actually has deposits, significant, of both.  As does Australia.  It's the price point to mine and refine the rare earth elements.  China has some of the worlds only deposits 

[nativewolf]

Received an email today from one of those carbon credit companies, they no longer will do annual harvest deferred contracts as nobody will buy the carbon credits, but now they offer a deal where you can plant "GMO trees" which grow faster to capture more carbon.  Had to laugh out loud, so now the plan is to save the planet by increasing the amount of genetic messing around we do not knowing what the consequences will be, and in the process we will grow a bunch of pulp.  

The 3rd rock from the sun may survive, but we just might be successful in killing off every living thing on it one way or another despite ourselves.  

Thank goodness, carbon markets are just full of half backed fraud schemes.  That GMO thing is funded by the  Ohrstrom family, google them.  It is just outright BS and an attempt to game things by people that are connected enough to get meetings with CEOs that have to buy credits.  Grifters and fraudsters, almost the whole bunch.   That is irrespective of the question of whether or not you believe man is causing climate changes (which I do and I guess you don't).  What is clear is the schemes are terrible.  Wall St (or Charlotte or Miami nowadays) wins and we all lose.

[nativewolf]

Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants | Reuters

Batteries are coming and the folks that build gas plants are pulling back.  

[doc henderson]

some of that is forecasting the fact that the government will "defeat" petroleum-based fuel come hell or high water.  drank too much of the cool aid.  the money goes where the government says.  look at the pipeline's shutdown on someone's first days in office.  And they are so proud.  got to fit the narrative, even if it hurts many folks trying to make a living.  now what country are we getting out fuel from?

[Southside]

From what I can see online, the USA actually has the most geothermal generation of any country, but it's only 0.4% of total generation. But KNOWN reserves and current technology suggest that can be increased over 20X.

Maybe we can generate some more power from it - maybe - but you would have to get that power to the grid, and then have the already over taxed grid be able to distribute it, into homes that likely don't have a spare breaker available to charge the EV. Arbitrary deadlines, for a technology that isn't ready for prime time, won't magically make it happen. 

[Al_Smith]

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"I bought a little Ford stock about 15 years ago.  It's not enough for life changing purchases." You have to look at the broad picture .Ford common IMO is way under valued .In the 29 years I worked for FOMOCO I have a fair amount in 401 K funds .It's low right now but considering the fact of dividends and certain payments finacially has worked out well for me .
I'll just say I've been retired for 5 years and have not bought any more but every report I get the balance is increasing in spite of taking 4 percent out each year in 401 payments . 
 

[Southside]

That is irrespective of the question of whether or not you believe man is causing climate changes (which I do and I guess you don'

No more than I believe putting up too many buildings in Guam will make the island flip over. 

[Al_Smith]

Look at history .At one time coal was king then came Drake in Pa with oil and soon the Pa. hills were filled with derricks followed by Ohio and eventually came the Oklahoma crude .Nucliear might have taken over were it not for Three Mile Island .Now comes windmills and fields of solar collectors .It won't stop there in years to come .Things for the most part evolve and thus improves over time .Just the way it works . 

[Al_Smith]

Much ado about weather patterns which historically have changed over eons of times just by naturaly occuring events .How about Mt Saints Helens which disrupted the weather as far away as eastern Ohio .It rained like a  cow peeing on a flat rock for the best part of seven years and man kind had nothing to do with it .The "little ice age "in Europe .About 450-500 years of trying to turn England into Alaska and it wasn't from burning coal stoves .Mankind might add a little bit to the weather but mother nature controlls it .Mother always wins .

[doc henderson]

No one knows, yet some "think" they do maybe.  but they decided what they want and spread lies and basically use terror tactic while they fly around to spread the propaganda.  there may be some truth to effects of use of buried fuel.  it does not help to tell the child the house will burn down if they do not finish their supper.  It never does, and then the so-called parent increases the threats because they are being ignored by sensible people.  So now if you deny any part of the climate agenda, you are stupid.  It is supposed to be "so clear".  I have never heard evidence only talking points.  Soes it if the US stop using petrol, and the rest of the world does not, will that solve the problem.  If we use coal and NG to produce the electricity, does that somehow erase the emissions if we drive a car with no exhaust pipe?  Are we not using primarily diesel power to mine the raw materials to make things that will then wear out.  Not all will be recyclable.  I cannot now believe information as now the activists deem themselves experts on the subject.  I am all for advancement and i try to not pollute.  I burn woodstoves and know the CO2, goes back into plants all over the world.  there must have been a class back in college that planted this stuff in folks' brains and unfortunately some of the students went into politics.  I am not a denier, I just not seen any reliable information on the subject.  I also have common sense and they are basically throwing the baby out with the bath water.  just like electric everything, we can barely power what we have.  I do not think if we decided everyone should heat with wood, that we could convert the planet in 10 years, and expect it to be feasible.  At least a wood stove is recyclable and lasts for 30 years.  I think the concept of EVs is great.  you cannot ignore the fact that they are powered by fossil fuels primarily, and the technology is barely here and not fully developed.  taking every problem we have, such as riots and crime in big Cities, and blaming it on climate change does increase anyone's confidence.  

[stavebuyer]

It is a cult.

[stavebuyer]

While most "studies" are funded by someone with an agenda the points mentioned I find valid.


Study finds the true cost of owning an electric vehicle equates to $17 per gallon (msn.com)

[Hilltop366]

Unless everything else is different on them trucks besides battery power, they will be rust buckets in 10 years unless it's drove in the lower tier states.

True without good undercoating and some even with good undercoating due to poor design but I drive a 10 year old Rav4, 20 year old Rav4 and a 29 year old dodge truck, although the truck is starting to get a bit of rust on the wheel wells and drivers floor but the rest is still in good condition so it can be done if you want to and I am in one of the worse places in north america for auto rust due to a "perfect storm" of high humidity, close to salt water, lots of wind blowing the salt around, warmer winters and salt on the road.

Either way he is saving around $10000 a year in operating cost compared to his last 2 trucks so we will have to wait until he trades it in to see if it was worth it.

[Al_Smith]

You can hear some wild theories .One my one time  father in law had was rockets punched holes in the 0zone layer and it leaked into outer space .Then again some still think the earth  is flat which are the same group that think the moon is made of green cheese . Must be something in the water . ???

[sharp edge]

I vote for the "green"


                 se                        

[nativewolf]

Unless everything else is different on them trucks besides battery power, they will be rust buckets in 10 years unless it's drove in the lower tier states.

True without good undercoating and some even with good undercoating due to poor design but I drive a 10 year old Rav4, 20 year old Rav4 and a 29 year old dodge truck, although the truck is starting to get a bit of rust on the wheel wells and drivers floor but the rest is still in good condition so it can be done if you want to and I am in one of the worse places in north america for auto rust due to a "perfect storm" of high humidity, close to salt water, lots of wind blowing the salt around, warmer winters and salt on the road.

Either way he is saving around $10000 a year in operating cost compared to his last 2 trucks so we will have to wait until he trades it in to see if it was worth it.

Our costs savings are pretty dramatic but then I put a lot of miles on the vehicle the electricity is about a buck and a half, the gas would have been $30.  Wont take 10 years to flat out pay for the truck just in fuel savings.  Much less brakes, oil, filters, etc etc.  

[nativewolf]

While most "studies" are funded by someone with an agenda the points mentioned I find valid.


Study finds the true cost of owning an electric vehicle equates to $17 per gallon (msn.com)

I was curious but all I saw was a headline and links to reports that manufactures were slowing the EV rollout.  The other links didn't work in my browser.  But since I know exactly what my costs are, a cable and switchover for my dryer outlet and I know my electric bill I have a pretty good idea of what my costs are.  It's $30 if I had a gas truck vs $1 for the electric.  $200 for the charging cable.  I find it impossible to spend more on an ev vs a gas car so I was curious to see how they came up with it and who came up with it.

[doc henderson]

Nativewolf.  I respect your opinion and choice.  I think that is the issue, politicians are outlawing ICE and making dumb premature decisions that affect everyone.  We are not ready.

[barbender]

 Sometimes we get a bit of a knee jerk reaction to things when something is being shoved down our throats, and it makes it hard to see the benefits.

I like electric stuff. My battery chainsaw is so handy around the mill, I grab it and pull the trigger to make a cut. It's not that big of a deal to start my gas saw, but it's enough of a pain that I reach for the cordless. But the cordless isn't even close to replacing my gas saws for real chainsaw work. 

I love my Cummins engine in my pickup. I ove the way it sounds, and the pulling power it has. But there's lots of downsides, one of the main ones being very expensive fuel or emission system repairs. If there was an electric motor that could power my one ton pickup, and pull a load as well as the current engine and had good range (and 300 miles wouldn't work for me) AND I didn't have to worry about a $15,000 battery failure...I might be interested. But don't force something on me where I'm doing R&D  for the manufacturer, as is already the case for a lot of the diesel emission systems. I don't want to do it for heavy duty batteries and stuff, too.

[stavebuyer]

Initial EV buyers get a $7500 tax break. Wonder where that money comes from? My electric bill has 50% add line item charges for "environmental surcharges". I pay for roads and bridges with every fill up.

The 93% of people driving ICE vehicles are paying the way for EV drivers to claim savings. If all the costs to convert from coal and gas, expand the capacity of generation to allow wide scale charging, 7500 tax credit, and per mile equivalent road use taxes, and battery replacement/depreciation are accounted for in an equitable manner the claimed savings wouldn't look anything like the numbers being touted.

[SwampDonkey]

I had a Dodge myself, it lasted 8 years and it was a work truck. Less than 200,000 km to, so it wasn't the mileage. :D Now someone like mom's uncle could make a vehicle last 30 years, sitting in his garage with 4000 km on it. :D

Dad's GM pickup on the farm, low mileage, was a rust bucket by 10 years and was kept on the farm mostly after that as it would never be passed for road use. I got barely 10 years out of an S15. :D So I have enough experience to know a well used truck has 10 good years. ;)

Heck there's been people around these parts running 40 year old IH trucks or 30 year old dump trucks on back country roads for years. They'd never pass inspection. You'd never drive one to town. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Our costs savings are pretty dramatic but then I put a lot of miles on the vehicle the electricity is about a buck and a half, the gas would have been $30.  Wont take 10 years to flat out pay for the truck just in fuel savings.  Much less brakes, oil, filters, etc etc.  

All well and good until things go in the opposite direction and cost of maintenance spikes. I'll give you about 7 years to prove me different. ;D
I'm curious what the math is on the $30 versus $1. Around here you get about 8 kwh for a $1. A gallon of gas here is $CDN6.50 and equivalent to 19.5 kwh. So it's $0.33 a kwh, or $2.67 for 8 kwh worth of gas. Now start charging road tax of $0.25/kwh on EV's. I think California charges $0.35 a kwh for heavy power users, but exempts EV's. Hmm I wonder why? 

[Stephen1]

Soooooo while all this carbon saving is being shoved down our lifestyle, China and India build the equivalent of 4 coal fire electrical generation plants every week. That is what I read in MSM last week.
My friends live in a 200 unit Condo building, 4 charging locations were added outside, to their building, and remember they can't be charged underground due to the fire hazard,  how is that cheap overnight energy going to service 200-400 EV cars that 1 building has parked in it's underground.  who is going to get up at 1 AM to go move their car so my neighbour can get up and hook his car up. I'm sorry the logistics do not work. 
Right now it's cheap nighttime energy, under valued charging stations that are bragging about how cheap EV's are. Wait until that charging station charges real time Electric rates for charging your EV, instead of just a length of time subsidized rate, and then add on your road tax. Just N. America alone needs 70 billion$ worth of charging sto
I can think of something else that was just hammered down on us and now starting to show what a lot of us thought all along, it was  crock full of.............