The Good and Bad of Ties

[Ron Wenrich]

There's a lot to be said about market stability.  I can saw a load of ties, and know that I have a buyer for it.  I'm not waiting for the phone to ring or spending time looking for a buyer at a higher price.  I saw the logs, they buy the ties.  Same goes with grade lumber.  If I have enough logs to make a load of grade, its sold with just one phone call.  And when markets get tough, those that have long histories with their buyers are the last ones to get cut out. 

[two tired]

the tie yard i haul to is verry good to take ties from me, even though I do not produce a large amount of ties, the yard is 150 miles away but I enjoy the trip. ties + pallet cants keep the hunger pangs away. lol. I buy my logs on the stump and do my own haulling, I cut switchties so I use a log from 9 to 17 ft. magicman did I mention I love sweetgum?   [saws like butter and they are everywhere.]

[francismilker]

For clarification for the newby here......................where do you sell them?  How many makes up a "load"? And, what is the specific dimensions of a tie?  I worked a 7 year stint for the railroad a few years ago and seen em' come in via car load already creosote treated and ready for spiking, just never seen a raw one.  8' ties were standard for roadbeds, but ties came in all lengths for switches, sidings, and etc. 

I have a lot of bigger hardwoods on my place that might make a tie or two that I'd be interested in sawing, I just don't know how many I'd need to have piled up before trying to market them and if a buyer would buy from a one time seller.

[CCC4]

Coming from mainly an Eastern red cedar background, completely covering the nitch market, then now currently working for a logging crew who mills ties, I have been able to see in full circle both sides of this thread.

Okrafarmer- I see where you are coming from, i also have sold many live sided erc mantel logs..split in half and total $100. Not bad at all but you can't sell them in quantities all day everyday. As far as those "crotches", I cut the bad fork off in the woods, angle cut the log and it goes to the scag mill. (hundreds per week)

When we need to come out of the woods and run the mill...as in the remainder  of this week (6in of snow)... we saw ties. Even with a 4 man crew we get out around 250 to 300 ties without much trouble, per day. We stockpile the bosses log yard with the ties logs, he doesn't hardly buy from individuals for same reasons as the OP. The other logs all go as scrag. I fell about 2 semi loads of sweet gum Christmas eve, if not for the tie market...that gum would be walked right passed. Ties and trailer decking absorbs the sweet gum, the side limber goes in the #4 stack.

[Ron Wenrich]

The standard tie size is either a 7x8 or 7x9.  Length is 8'6".  They like to see them cut plump.  I always kept mine 1/8" over, but they wanted them 1/4" from some producers.  There is also a 6x8 tie that goes to different markets.  I think in my area they said they went for subway systems and Canadian markets.  They don't pay nearly as well.  A typical load would be what you can fit on your truck.  We made bundles of 20, although some guys make them as small as 10.  Our loads are 220 ties, and its overweight.  If your truck hauls 20, then that's a load.

Switch ties can be anywhere from 10' to 23'.  They don't need too many 10-12'.  I used to sell quite a few 13-16', which sold at a little higher price.  We would also sell trailer loads of 22' or 23'.  Those ties fetched $750 per Mbf. 

They also would buy flange timbers and bridge timbers on occasion.  I haven't cut flange in years, and they don't buy lots of them.  They would be on special order and given to the bigger producers.  Same goes for bridge.  I used to cut a lot of bridge, and the prices were better than cutting grade.  At one time, I was getting $1.40/bf for some of the bigger timbers.  Bridge generally run from 8x8x10 to 10x17x15.  Again, bigger producers got those orders.

You would have to check with a local mill or your state forester to see where they're sending ties.  We sell to Koppers and a little local treatment plant.  There used to be 7 places we could send ties.  That's down to 3.  You may only have 1 or 2. 

[paul case]

For clarification for the newby here......................where do you sell them?  How many makes up a "load"? And, what is the specific dimensions of a tie?  I worked a 7 year stint for the railroad a few years ago and seen em' come in via car load already creosote treated and ready for spiking, just never seen a raw one.  8' ties were standard for roadbeds, but ties came in all lengths for switches, sidings, and etc. 

I have a lot of bigger hardwoods on my place that might make a tie or two that I'd be interested in sawing, I just don't know how many I'd need to have piled up before trying to market them and if a buyer would buy from a one time seller.

I sell my ties to the same buyer that buys at a bigger mill  near me. They unload my ties and the buyer comes by and grades them, and mails me a check. I have to bundle mine in 20 because thats how the bigger mill does. He loads the semi truck when he gets a load.
Doing it this way will keep you from having to have a big enough lift to load bigger bundles and you can sell more often. I have the names of a few buyers. If you pm me I will send you their numbers. They can tell you if they buy at a sawmill near you that can handle your bundles. PC

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I have not cut a Tie or Sleepers as we call them here for the Railroad for about 10 years i use to saw alot upto 1-120 a day with my older cousin in his 70s at the time from my teens and all he had cut his whole life was Hardwood Bridge Timbers,Sleepers 6x10x9's ,Fence Posts and Firewood

he also cut heaps of Droppers 1x1" and 1x2" by roughly 4' long hardwood that goes between the posts to tie the wire to they where $1.20 a piece plus last time i sawed any with him in the 90s cut 1000 a day out of a couple of logs your still making good money  ;)

We also have a huge Garden Grade Sleeper Market in Hardwood ,Cypress and Pine (treated) 6x2",6x3" & 8x2",8x3" & 8x4" in 4' to16's with the most common lengths being 8'-9' &10' foot that I have sawn Millions and Millions of bft of over the years ! And its what I am gearing my Sawmills to do atm along with Fencing Timber coming out of the smaller logs fence timbers posts are usually 5x3" to 6x6" in 6' to 10' lengths Rails are 3x1.5" or 3x2"  x  8' & 16' or 9 & 18' foot lengths we use a thing called Palings which are 4 & 6" wide and 1/2 an inch thick and 4 to 6' long usually that get nailed vertical in a board n batten style high piece count but better return per bft if your set up to do it properly and profitably  ;)

Log supply is the main factor for us all and has being the main pima for long time along with production capacity (being able to turn around large orders in short times I hated passing up good ongoing work )

Atm everything is falling into line for me and I have an awesome deal or Agreement  going now where We have the run of over 12000+ acres of Plantation Hardwoods + more to come along with 1000+ acres of private pine and another 12000ha of Private pine about 3 hrs away which will need its own mills and the Foresters are stoked along with Jack the logging contractor and The fellas who will be in on the retail side of things in Melbourne who also manage 20000acres of Hardwood and will have me milling 2000 ton plus of higher vale timbers P/a along with doing their own 10 to 20,000 ton of Firewood per year  ;) Im in charge of the Sawmilling Wholesale Direct Sales and eventually all the Trucking/Logistics including Firewood  Like I said to jack the other day this things turning out alot bigger than I/We had plans for when we met 8 weeks ago  :D :D but we will let things grow at their own pace another good thing everyone involved in this is very Debt Adverse and we all think the same way which is good  ;) ;D ;D 8)

The Plan Is we are all making a fair cut and have things be profitable for us All along the line and the beauty is We all get along really well and have been and want to be in this game for a Long Time to come coupled with the fact we can undercut every retailer (the ones who do the screwing down of prices for the rest of us) in Melbourne if we wanted to gives us a pretty large market with just the green sawn outdoor timber market Sometimes you have to change your thinking of how you do business ;)  ;D 8) 8)

With The Tie Market there as has been stated its a steady market and Anything can Be a Nitch Market if done Properly with the rite Determination, Attitude, Gear and or Personal and that can range from an Lt15 size mill  through to a dedicated mill that  ranges form getting $550 to $5500 per thousand they all have their own set of issues to overcome as I have done them all low value to high end stuff and everything in between ;)

edit .

I think the Garden Grade Tie market could work for alot of you in the States if your chasing tie production  if it wont make a Rail Tie just split it up the guts or into 3x 2x9"s or2x8"s or 3xs or a smaller tie if the logs a touch small ill add we get away with a fair ammount of wane and splits knots,rot these days here in Hardwood Garden Sleepers and people who want a high grade tie for retaining walls ect pay higher prices too  ;)

:new_year:

Best Regards Chris

[Bibbyman]

Our Koppers buyer only wants 9' ties.  We saw 1/8" over 7x9 and trim to 9'-3", for some reason.


What is the industry tolerance to length?  Maybe I'm trimming some I wouldn't have to or not sending some that may be a little less than 9'-3" that would still be long enough?  I've asked the buyer but he implies there is no tolerance.   

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Bibby I reckon they should let you send stuff in that just a touch over length but it all depends how they have their docker set up i spose but it would not hurt to talk to them about it Mate  ;) Here most ties are just square trimmed chainsaw cuts for ties thats  measure and go between Bang on to 1/2 over cut n done Hell we use to just dock the logs in the yard with a 9' stick and that was it mill it put it in the pack  ;) Only the bigger mills docked with circular trim saws because they had them inline with the mill ;)

Regards Chris

[beenthere]

Bibby

One way to find out....  ;D

But at what risk do you want to try it?

[Bibbyman]

Bibby

One way to find out....  ;D

But at what risk do you want to try it?

So far, we've never delivered a cull RR tie.  I've seen many on the lot just as well made and pre-culled but I've seen many far worse.   Some mills make awful poor ties - thick, thin, tapered, what have you. But they may have culled them.  I know the buyer has stopped buying from some mills because of the poor quality and trying to sneek junk in the bundle.

[Ron Wenrich]

A lot depends on how bad they need ties.  When markets are good, they just come in, count the ties and leave a check.  No rejects.  When times aren't as good, they usually give about a 2% reject rate.  I think they do that just to keep the mills honest, and to lower their purchase price for a load without lowering unit price.  Sort of what the grade buyers do when they stiffen grade but not price.

Our buyer would take ties that were 1" under the 8'6" rule during good times.  I don't know if I'd try it now.

[drobertson]

the way it was explained to me was no rot or shake on the ends, and from the end of the tie 11"s in to 30"s in is the rail plate area. no holes deeper than 2" and rot is still considered on the face. and the face of the tie should have no more than 1" of wane taking away from the square face. ie,9" face is allowed an 8" face.  rot and holes are the major defects. 

[Ron Wenrich]

When they inspect ties at the mill, they are only looking at the ends.  Most of the rest of the tie is buried.  They do know who's tie it is when they get it to their yard and do the reman work to it.  Too many problems will lead to harder inspections. 

[Bibbyman]

At the buying yard where we market they load with a grapple loader.  They say that they take layer by layer and inspect the top and bottom as they load. But they have forked our bundles off the truck and dumped them directly into the RR car.

The buyer has a pile of examples they point out.  One tie was more hole than tie. He said he took it back to the mill and showed them why they were off the approved supplier list.

[Ohio_Bill]

I had sold ties at Stella Jones treatment Plant in West Virginia. They unloaded the ties and the ties were placed on a conveyer and graded on all 4sides plus the ends were trimmed and graded. Over the years I had a few ties downgraded to what they called industrial but I never had one rejected. That plant has now closed so the closest location to me is Koppers and my experience with them is similar to Bibbyman's. I usually take 40 7by9's and 20 6by8's on a load.  All  8 ft 6inch  plus trim which  works out to be 105 inches .

[Cedarman]

Years ago we had a third size. 7x8  Is that size not allowed now?

[Ron Wenrich]

They're still using them.  When markets were tight, the local Koppers wanted a certain percentage of 7x8.  I think that was to keep average costs down. 

[reride82]

What Species are usually allowed for Ties? Hardwood, Softwood?

Levi

[ahlkey]

Very helpful and timely post.  I am ready to start on a timber stand improvement harvest for 80 acres of hardwoods (Maple, Beech, White Ash, & Oak) on the old homestead. It hasn't been harvested for various reasons other than for firewood since 1940.  Volume levels are very high but quality is low-grade.  Rather than cuting all the cordwood for bolts & firewood I have been considering ties as well?  In the past have done pallet cants but at the end I didn't feel it much better than just selling the bolts to the pallet mill. However, with ties it might make sense on the low grade logs that just don't make the cut for lumber.  When your options are limited and you can make a little why not?  One good point is I can do all the logging and sawing at convienent times given it is the old homestead plus I already have all the necessary equipment to handle handle the ties.   Thanks for all information

[Bibbyman]

The best ties are made from good, solid logs that happen to be less desirable than their cousins.  For example, a good white oak will often bring better price as veneer or stave log.  Where the burr and post oak cousins do not. 

Same with true red oak.  A really good true red oak will normally bring more money than you can afford to make into a tie.  The black oak and other cousins are not so valuable and make good ties. 

But you'll starve trying to make ties out of junk logs.  Too many defects like crook, forked ends, big knots with rot under them, hollow, shake and shell and all you will be doing is sawing cull ties.

[Ohio_Bill]

What Species are usually allowed for Ties? Hardwood, Softwood?

Levi

Ashes Gums Oaks
Beech Hackberries Pines
Birches Hemlocks Poplars
Catalpas Hickories Redwoods
Cherries Larches Sassafras
Douglas fir Locusts Spruces
Elms Maples Sycamores
Firs (true) Mulberries Walnuts

Each Rail Road has there own list of types of wood they will accept. The Rail Road Tie Association   RTA.org has a list of specifications.  Before producing ties you should get in touch with a tie buyer to see what there requirement are.
:new_year:

[WH_Conley]

I sell to Koppers, they want 9', will take a few as short as 8'6", not many. QAy 8'6" they have to be square on the ends.

[Bibbyman]

I sell to Koppers, they want 9', will take a few as short as 8'6", not many. QAy 8'6" they have to be square on the ends.

What length are you trimming your 9' to?

[WH_Conley]

9' even, give or take an inch.

I take it that specs are a little different according to which treatment plant they go to. Different plants for different railroads.