Casual cutter here...
Seems like I always tend to fade when cutting. Today I was way off. Was cutting a log about 1 1/2+foot diameter. I ended up 4" off center to the left at the bottom.
Today's wood was some unknown, floated in, half rotted junk. It was soft. But even in oak I drift.
I am learning to sharpen chains and that may have been some of the problem today (my first chain), but I seem to do it with a professionally sharpen chains too.
I have the typical grip.
I can't figure out how I'm guiding the bar to not go straight.
Any insight would be helpful.
Thanks,
ksks
In my experience, this is usually caused by a worn out bar. The groove gets too wide and lets the chain tilt to one side as it cuts. Try flipping the bar over, to see if the top side is worn as bad. If that doesn't work, you need a new one.
Thanks JByrd: I had not considered the bar as the problem. It does make sense. Anytime I had the problem it was my poor chain sharpening skills (I'm much better now). :snowball:
Definitly could be the chain being sharper on one side or a bar issue. Take the chain off and look closely at the bar. See if it has a worn edge on top or bottom where the chain rides. Sometimes they need a flat file to them to file off the worn edge. My 8 year old son wants me to put a smilely in here.. >>>>8> >>>>8>
Let's cover the obvious first. Don't take any offense.
The aforementioned worn bar groove.
Wrong gauge chain (0.050 chain in an 0.058 bar, for instance).
Cutters longer on one side of chain. Saw will cut toward side with longer cutters. Often, someone will keep "sharpening" the other side, thinking those are dull, making them shorter & aggravating the problem.
Drags (or rakers or depth gauges) uneven. Saw will cut toward side taking the larger bite.
Drags too high, requiring excessive force to cut, combined with the natural off-center grip of the saw. Will cause the to tilt, and cut to one side.
Keep working on the sharpening technique! It's one of the most crucial skills.to successful sawing.
In my more than 30 years of running a saw,when it starts to cut crooked it's because of my filing. Most times I can sharpen it with the motor on the right and I'm good to go.
A good way to check the bar is to take it off and try and stand it on edge on a flat surface. A nice even bar should balance on the edge (that supports the chain). If it keeps falling over (in the same direction) then the rails are uneven, hence the chain is uneven, hence it cuts in a circle.
There are other reasons like uneven sharpening, but if it's happening on all your chains, even professionally sharpened ones, then that's the first place to look. Easy enough to check, and if the bar is worn unevenly, nothing else you do is going to fix the problem.
If you haven't flipped the bar over, do that. Both sides are the same, and the "top" shouldn't have much wear. If both sides are worn, then it's usually possible to "Dress" the bar with a file or grinder. This works a few times,until you have worn away too much steel, and it's time for a new bar.
Ian
Thanks for all the info! Good ideas here.
Don't worry about me taking offense. I'll take all the help I can get.
I have heard about filing the bar.
- Is that just filing both sides flat?
- Is that something that would be better for a shop to do? For safety sake.
I will try balancing the bar to see if its tipsy, and flip it over.
Thanks for the good, and kind, help!
ksks
You can buy a file / guide for dressing the bar.
http://www.baileysonline.com/Chainsaw-Bars/Repair-Maintenance/Edge-Files-Sharpeners/Pferd-Universal-Edge-Sharpener.axd (http://www.baileysonline.com/Chainsaw-Bars/Repair-Maintenance/Edge-Files-Sharpeners/Pferd-Universal-Edge-Sharpener.axd)
It's faster to dress it with a bench grinder and guide plate, which is probably what the shop will do. But you can't get into too much trouble working on it yourself with a hand file and guide ;) 5 mins with that file and your should have the bar reasonably true again.
Ian
I was always taught that every time you sharpen or change to a new chain, that you should also flip, (reverse) the bar. This way you tend to spread the wear evenly amongst the bar, and increase its lifespan. If you are fading in the cut, flip the bar, and see if that changes the cut. If you dive the other direction, chances are it is a bad bar. If you still fade in the same direction, than it is most almost assuredly a dull mis-filed chain.
I was cutting with a friend of mine last year. He was doing fine, but got the tip in the dirt for just a second after a cut. Could not cut a straight cut after that, as the dirt had dulled one side of the chain, and it kept pulling it sideways through the cut. Took 20 minutes, resharpened the chain, and he was back to cutting no further problems. It doesn't take much of a problem to pull the cut out of square.
What bar and chain are you running? Dual dogs or single? I had been unable to run a saw for years and when I started back a few months ago the only thing I had was a toy saw from a big box and of course the nothing chain. Couldn't cut straight no matter how hard I tried having to force that thing through wood.
I found a Makita 6401 about a week or so ago.(Dolmar 6400) Much stouter bar and dual dogs. Even with garbage chain I was cutting straight as a die instantly. Put some full comp chisel chain on it and the saw glides through big logs on a chalk line.
Just some things to consider too. Like everyone else, I think it is more likely to be an equipment problem than operator issues.
Hu
Quote from: shootingarts on November 14, 2013, 10:47:38 AM
What bar and chain are you running? Dual dogs or single?
haha, no idea what you just said!
As noted, several possibilities.
Most guys who hand file are 'stronger' on one side, so they end up with different angles or cutter lengths on R and L sides. If you are aware of this you can look for it and adjust/compensate.
Bar wear can take on different forms. If one rail is lower than the other, the rails need to be filed or ground square.
But the inside groove can also wear, allowing the chain to rock from one side to another. Hold a straight edge (vertically) flat against the side of the bar; the cutters should prevent the straight edge from touching the bar. If the cutters move away, allowing the straight edge to touch the bar, the bar groove is probably worn. Some guys will try to close a worn bar groove with a special tool but it's really time to think about a new bar
Philbert
Quote from: ksks on November 14, 2013, 10:52:40 AM
Quote from: shootingarts on November 14, 2013, 10:47:38 AM
What bar and chain are you running? Dual dogs or single?
haha, no idea what you just said!
Dogs are the pointy things with the red arrow pointing at them. Despite the way they look in the picture they are exactly even with each other and dead level across. Makita calls them spike bars but what the hell do they know? My daddy and my daddy's daddy called them dogs, course they never come when called so it don't matter noway!
Gotta remember your talking with a south Louisiana country boy. It ain't rexactly a furrin language but I rarely meet anyone from anywhere else that don't talk funny!
Hu
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34358/makita_chainsaw_006post.jpg)
Called 'dogs' (or 'dawgs') ' cause they bite into the wood!
Philbert
About the dogs, if you are running slow cutting chain it is easy to lean on things a bit. Do that with a single dog and limber bar and the pressure you are putting on the saw and the single anchor point causes a curve.
Uneven rail height, all the other things mentioned by others, can cause you to run crooked too but sometimes it is just a simple thing. I couldn't cut straight with a toy saw, soon as I grabbed up the Makita I could make cuts that looked like they were ready to plane for lumber.
Hu
I just have single "dawgs" on my Stihl and have no problem cutting straight. So don't think they are by themselves what is the aid, or the problem of curved cutting.
Only time I've ever witnessed a curve in my cut was when the chain was rocked and I didn't do a sufficient job of filing the teeth equally on both sides. Thought a shortcut would work. But it didn't.
Dawgs are not needed for most sawing if the chain is sharp. They do aid in making some cuts when felling and about the only time I use them.. possibly a few times bucking if in a tight spot or big diam. log.
Maybe on short bars they could be handy.
Quote from: doubleclutchinweasel on November 13, 2013, 08:54:25 PM
Let's cover the obvious first. Don't take any offense.
The aforementioned worn bar groove.
Wrong gauge chain (0.050 chain in an 0.058 bar, for instance).
Cutters longer on one side of chain. Saw will cut toward side with longer cutters. Often, someone will keep "sharpening" the other side, thinking those are dull, making them shorter & aggravating the problem.
Drags (or rakers or depth gauges) uneven. Saw will cut toward side taking the larger bite.
Drags too high, requiring excessive force to cut, combined with the natural off-center grip of the saw. Will cause the to tilt, and cut to one side.
Keep working on the sharpening technique! It's one of the most crucial skills.to successful sawing.
Cound be all or any of that - but it also could be an AV mount that is broken or isn't working properly....
Quote from: SawTroll on November 14, 2013, 04:10:25 PMCound be all or any of that - but it also could be an AV mount that is broken or isn't working properly....
That's a very interesting idea! Not something I would normally think of.
Philbert
Quote from: thecfarm on November 13, 2013, 09:21:01 PM
In my more than 30 years of running a saw,when it starts to cut crooked it's because of my filing. Most times I can sharpen it with the motor on the right and I'm good to go.
Same here. 90% or more of the time a crooked cut is due to a chain needing sharpening or one that has been poorly sharpened.
Yes, _occasionally_ it is the fault of the bar but first and foremost suspect the chain.
Harry K
Just a tip for handsharpeners if you haven't heard it befoe :).
I mount the saw in the vice upside down. That allows me tosharpen both sides right handeded. Stand facing the saw to do one side, stand by the power head to do the other. I saw that tip on another site way back when and have used it ever since. It eliminates the "strong hand" problem of uneven sharpening.
Dunno how It would work for lefties though.
Harry K
Ditto on all the mechanical stuff.
You wrote "Seems like I always tend to fade when cutting." - That happens to me also (I'm 66) and my cuts can get off line because I'm fading.
I have to imagine a chalk line on the wood and focus on the line - works for me.
Thanks for the replays.
First today I will try flipping the bar without sharpening.
I have another chain professionally sharpened so that will be my next step.
I did order the bar file.
I have only one dog.
Sharpen your chain.
Yes if that fails get a B&C combo.
And to make Philbert happy ;D I will mention that many people use those el cheapo HF grinders to grind both sides equal again. And yes they will make a nice sharp chain so that you don't need to send it out again and can be sure of your own quality.
Here is a link on how to use one of those.
youtube.com/watch?v=f3m_ErOrzHY
7
Quote from: motard on November 15, 2013, 10:42:36 AM
Yes if that fails get a B&C combo.
Bacon and cheddar? mmmm...that I can understand!
Quote from: 7sleeper on November 15, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
And to make Philbert happy I will mention that many people use those el cheapo HF grinders to grind both sides equal again.
Didn't realize that Harbor Freight had stores in Austria. I would only try one of those things out of respect for you, 7. I have been watching for one at a garage sale.
The newer, deluxe versions have a bicycle brake lever on the handle to secure the chain in the vise (I thought that was my idea!).
Maybe if they are
really cheap on 'Black Friday'.
Philbert
Quote from: Philbert on November 15, 2013, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: 7sleeper on November 15, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
And to make Philbert happy I will mention that many people use those el cheapo HF grinders to grind both sides equal again.
Didn't realize that Harbor Freight had stores in Austria. I would only try one of those things out of respect for you, 7. I have been watching for one at a garage sale.
The newer, deluxe versions have a bicycle brake lever on the handle to secure the chain in the vise (I thought that was my idea!).
Maybe if they are really cheap on 'Black Friday'.
Philbert
No Harbor Freight here but they are so generic that you can get them in any color/name scheme you want. And to be honest they also cost 29;90€ here, but I also got mine on sale for 19;90. The new version I have is made much better. It seems to be the improved version with aluminum bottom and plastic swing arm with an led. Here is a picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lidl.de%2Fmedia%2Fproduct%2F0%2F1%2F0%2F0%2F6%2F5%2F9%2Fflorabest-kettenschaerfgeraet-fsg-85-b1-regular--2.jpg&hash=2182149d3984e2bef268145e8a56a8f0eb7adae8)
Seems that I have talked long enough about this that somehow I must have gotten your interest! :D But don't worry the same thing happened in our german thread and now a lot of guys are using them. What one fellow mentioned is that he is using it onsite. Because it only has an 80W engine and he has a transformer(one of those models for the cigarette lighter) for his car, he takes it with him on his cutting tours into the forest just in case.
7
Current conversion is 1.35 $ US = 1 Euro. About the same price here.
Philbert
Quote from: Philbert on November 14, 2013, 07:54:31 PM
Quote from: SawTroll on November 14, 2013, 04:10:25 PMCound be all or any of that - but it also could be an AV mount that is broken or isn't working properly....
That's a very interesting idea! Not something I would normally think of.
Philbert
Not my prime theory, but it has been known to happen! ;)
I just added it, as all the more common culprits already had been mentioned.
That's the anti-vibration mount, right?
Thanks for all the info guys. It rained the day I was going to experiment and I won't be back to the property for a couple months. I'll try then.
Thanks again,
ksks
i have found that when a cut ends up left or right of where you started, the chain needs attention. for some reason, the cutters are not even. i also flip the bar every time i put a new(sharpened) chain on. i sharpen chains for friends and put a note in the ziplock bag with their sharp chain that says,"flip your bar over every time you put a sharpened chain on". you would be surprised at the amount of people that think their manufacturer's name should be upright and readable while cutting.
Didn't read the other posts, but I had this issue a good bit a couple of years ago. I even bought a new bar, thinking that was the problem. Turns out I wasn't sharpening enough or with the proper technique. For days I'm out in the field, sometimes I bring a couple of chains so I don't have to bother hooking up my sharpener to my truck battery, etc.
Quote from: SLawyer Dave on November 14, 2013, 12:40:28 AM
I was always taught that every time you sharpen or change to a new chain, that you should also flip, (reverse) the bar. This way you tend to spread the wear evenly amongst the bar, and increase its lifespan. If you are fading in the cut, flip the bar, and see if that changes the cut. If you dive the other direction, chances are it is a bad bar. If you still fade in the same direction, than it is most almost assuredly a dull mis-filed chain.
I was cutting with a friend of mine last year. He was doing fine, but got the tip in the dirt for just a second after a cut. Could not cut a straight cut after that, as the dirt had dulled one side of the chain, and it kept pulling it sideways through the cut. Took 20 minutes, resharpened the chain, and he was back to cutting no further problems. It doesn't take much of a problem to pull the cut out of square.
I've never thought to flip the bar like that. Reminds me of when I was younger and played hockey, every time I got a new blade for my aluminum shaft, the shop guys recommended flipping it so it wouldn't bow in one direction.
As for your second point, this is why when I have help cutting/moving wood, I usually do all of the cutting. My buddies are terrible about sticking it in the dirt; really slows things down.
Sticking it in the dirt, I told my BIL several times to keep it out of the dirt yet when I'd look he's have the tip 3" in the dirt. I don't think he ever made over 15 minutes on a chain. Steve
What I believe is important is to count the amount of strokes to always have equal amount of metal removal.
7
If you have a tooth that needs to be filed down more to get it sharp, it's not an issue. It's when you do that on every tooth on one side and not the other, it becomes a real problem. Dressing the bar to make it square is a must as well. If one side of the rail is lower than the other, you'll cut circles, or not be able to complete the cut at all. You should be able to stand a bar up on a flat surface without it falling over.
What part of wi are you in? If you need help with sharpening your chain or bar maintenance feel free to hit me up.
Thanks guys.
Gunn, I'm in SE WI but the saw is in MO...
Last time I was down the weather was single digits with humidity from 70s to 90%. It was miserable and no way I was going to work outside. I'll be back down in May so will take it to that saw then.
I did order a file and guide for the bar. I'll keep practicing on the filing the teeth.
I like the idea of putting the saw upside down and doing both angles. Cant picture how that works but will give it a shot.
Lots of good ideas. Thanks guys.
It might take time for you to learn just how to do it too. I watched my Father file for years. I had a very hard time. Finally I took a good size log and a file and my saw. I went to filing and sawing. Until finally I figured out what I was doing wrong. When the saw is on the right and the bar is on the left my strokes are not as strong. So if I take 3 on one side I only take 2 on the other side. Starts to cut at a angle,I file with saw on the right and don't touch the other side. Most times it works and getting nice and staight and pulls itself into the wood. Sounds odd,but I did it that way today. I did saw into a bunch of frozen dirt on a tree.
The upside down saw trick might help too.
Quote from: gunn on February 09, 2014, 06:28:19 PM
What part of wi are you in? If you need help with sharpening your chain or bar maintenance feel free to hit me up.
Where is gunn located?
I'm in Stevens Point.
Well I finally got back to that saw. Had a dead tree I just fell.
The bar issue was right on. I tried to balance the bar on my table and it was way off. I had never flipped it. I did file it flat and there was a big improvement. Much straighter cut. Still not completely straight and I'm assuming that's due to a beginner sharpening issue.
Thanks for all the info and help.
You guys are great!