On the last pine thinning I cut, the forester was looking at the growth rings on some thin slices of Norway Pine in this case. We counted about 40 rings in about a 15 inch diameter butt and you could see the wide rings up to about 20 years and then they got narrower till you could barely see between the rings as they were so close together. These were planted in 6 ft rows but had been previously thinned by a storm in some places, but not everywhere.
Obviously the reason for a thinning is to get more growth and after a thinning you should see wider spacing on the rings. But my question is should there be a natural narrowing of the rings as it grows because of the volume of growth material required at larger diameters? Or put another way, will that tree after a thinning go back to the wide spacing of growth rings that occured in the early years?
In any tree species there is a maximum annual increment attainable on a site in that climate, genes also play a role. But as to opening the stand more with a second thinning, if your increasing crown volume your going to increase increment. Increased diameter obviously increases annual volume, but ring width will not diminish with increased girth unless it has reached a point in it's life it is declining in health. In your case it seems you have seen what happens when the tree canopy closes back in after a few years from the thinning. The base of the crown lifts faster than the new crown being produced at the top of the canopy. One other note is that red pine does not have a lot of genetic variability. If you see crooked ones it's most likely damage and not genes.
I think tree age has something to do with it. I've always found that its hard to release an older tree, especially if its been suppressed. Some foresters and timber markers will tell landowners that those trees will grow.
A younger tree will have better vigor and respond quicker to a release cutting. I've noted on some oak butts that you can tell the various stages by looking at the growth rings. I have seen growth rates come back after a tree has been thinned and left. I can often spot them at several intervals, meaning a few thinnings. Oak wasn't a very valuable species until the late '70s. So, they were often left behind.
You can also see when there were years of drought and when there were defoliations from the gypsy moth. Those rings won't be as wide.
But, the only way you increase tree growth is to allow for crown expansion. When expansion stops, so does the growth.
I noticed the same thing on the Spruce that was used for the Hightop table project.
The last 7-8 years growth didn't keep pace with the previous 25.
May have something to do with crowding although the area wasn't all that thick.
Maybe soil conditions changed or the tree was weakened by wind years ago. ???
The reason I mention that is because this tree was a blow down.
Heck maybe the site conditions are fine and the growth cycle of this tree had run it's course.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/1336/Growth_Rings.JPG)
40 or 50 years in the case of the red pine and spruce isn't even old. If it were balsam fir then it would have reached about it's maximum potential in the southern portion of NB, but up this way and north it probably has close to 20 more years before it goes down hill to it's demise by 80-90 years.
There is also a difference if you try to release an overtopped suppressed tree versus crowded trees. One exception is red spruce, which will respond when released from long suppression periods. Try that with balsam fir and you might as well grind it up for mulch. There is now some evidence that fungus causing but rot actually inoculates trees like fir or spruce at a very young age and it's not so much due to suppression, low vigour or aging when it attacks. However, probably can't dispute the assumption that poor health amplifies it. Up here we do a pre-commercial thinning (PCT) in softwoods and later by another 25 years a commercial thinning is done. They tried it at 10-12 years to thin post PCT, but the economics isn't there. I've seen the stands they tried it in and the trees were not far along enough and barely allowed to have crown lift. I marked trails on one site that the trees were barely 5 inches, the guy doing the work about went broke. Same problem I heard from others as well. From studies on densities thinned I've found 25 years post PCT is the optimal point for a commercial thinning in spruce-fir here in the NE. There is lots of tree ring growth data.
This is a fun thread. :)
Hey Jeff, did you count the rings on Moose's cookie from initial release toward the centre to the outer rings that start crowding again? I just noticed myself, around 25 years. :D
The outer rings that are surpressed looks like the last 12 rings, with each one getting more narrow than the next.
Here is another angle of the same log.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/1336/Growth_Rings2.JPG)
You'd like to thin that again before it goes back into slower growth for long to keep the increment up, but not only that the volume grows like a bell curve not a constant slope. ;)
You may be able to see the outer rings better on this photo.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/1336/Growth_Rings3.JPG)
You need to see the whole end of the log to tell, but it looks like that direction to the right of the second picture (about 2:00) and the bottom of the first picture (about 5:00) are the same, and were on the bottom of a leaning tree or the tree was on the outside of the plantation where that side got all of the sun. It's rings are larger and the orange color indicates reaction/compression wood. Differences in the type of wood found there, on the sides of the tree and the tight grain of reaction wood that might exist on the other side of the tree will make boards do strange things on a sawmill, as the tension is released.
I suspect that the tightening of the rings on the outside of the tree was due to another canopy closing, or possibly the result of the drought we have suffered in the last few years.
Tom, dark or reddish brown late-wood is typical of eastern spruce. From the way the camera view point was I think has a lot to do with how out of round the tree was. ;) There was some type of injury (or the cut was just near a branch) when it was younger, see the rings take a dimple around that dark radial line? ;) A little wider late-wood in this case is probably better growing conditions. Drought isn't much of a problem most years in this region.
Here is a picture of one of the slices we looked at.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Redpinewafer.jpg)
It's kind of hard to see as this piece was picked up in the woods and was a trim piece from the end of a tree. I counted about 40 rings total and it was around twenty years that growth started to diminish. From what you have said, I would guess that that would not have resumed those wide early growth rings just because it had been surpressed so long.
Gary, you may get a boost again, I'm actually quite sure you will to be quite honest, but it will take probably 5 years to see it at the least. Your trees are not all that old. My point is you want to keep that increment up, you've only gotten 3% interest for 20 years compared to 12% from the previous 20 years if someone had been on the ball. ;) So many folks just stick trees in the ground and don't want to do the next steps. ;)
Very interesting topic.
I'd agree with Donk, there is a maximum growth that can be obtained. I would add that if the thinnings have been properly timed then you shouldn't see much of an increase in growth but rather a continuation of previous fast growth.
I would also say that trees will eventually reach an age where there is very little response in diameter growth. This is a grey area that is highly variable. Senescence in trees can take decades and trying to define when a tree is in senescence or has began to senesce can be very difficult.
Gary, that red pine you're thinning will definitely take off. As Ron said, as long as it wasn't severely suppressed they'll start gaining again. Last spring I cored a red pine that had been part of a seed tree cut. When I was there the tree was 16" dbh and 113 years old, ten years earlier it had been 13.5" dbh! They can grow really well even when they are older, something most people and textbooks don't believe.
Clark
Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 18, 2010, 02:49:55 PM
Gary, you may get a boost again, I'm actually quite sure you will to be quite honest, but it will take probably 5 years to see it at the least.
Well, it's not my stand, it belongs to the state and it actually quite a mess. The buckthorn and prickly ash were taking over and as far as I could find out, it had not been thinned previously but a bad storm had gone thru and thinned some of the weakest trees but in scattered places. That had allowed the underbrush to grow to at least 15 feet high. I guessed part of the reason for me thinning the stand was so I could drive down the buckthorn. :)
Here is a before and after.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Job-from-H1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Job-from-H2.jpg)
Then in another part of the stand, there was white and red pine along with a central patch of walnut and the walnut was being antagonistic to both the red and white, plus the blister rust was killing a lot of the white pine. And in a third stand, the white pine was younger and was under heavy attack by blister rust and probably was either too rich of soil or not planted close enough so it was limby and poor form. It wasn't a very nice job all the way around.
Actually the main reason for the original question was because I have been working on a lady that is presently living in her home place, her parents are both gone, and she is sitting on a nice 40 acre and 30 year old stand of red pine that is in need of a first thinning. The trees are as thick as dog hairs in there and it is very clear underneath. I have been telling her that she will get a big growth spurt if it is thinned but she professes to be a "tree hugger" and even though she agrees it needs thinning, she has a lot of reasons for not doing it. But I have stopped in three times and we have a very nice back and forth and though she says I'm persistant and hasn't thrown me out yet, she probably will not ever allow anything to be cut.
So I just asked this to verify what I have been telling her, but it probably will not do any good. But there's still some hope as she said she enjoys talking about it, though she says she would have to be carried out of there before any trees were to be cut. ::)
Probably wasting my time and yours, though I've learned something here. ;D
I have yet to get an answer as to why the rings on woods here turn out like this. Any ideas ?¿
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/TIGRE_CASPI_LOG_SLICE%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/king_queen_Copia_de_ANOTHER_PURPLE_WOOD%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_%282%29_de_PINK_FLAME_END_GRAIN_BOWL%7E1.JPG)
Gary, your cookie unlike Moose's doesn't indicate to me any kind of disturbance at all. It tells me that the crowns began to close in at about 18 years after it was planted. We would have thinned it before then with brush saws, probably by year 10 because they get big buts quick. I think we might be planting red pine a little tight unless we wish to loose some growth until a commercial thinning is viable. That seems to case here. You would go broke at year 18 with big machinery in there unless your chipping the whole plantation like some are around here. ;)
Jim, I would say a lot of that is stain streaks caused by bacteria or fungus and nothing to do with growth rings. The tropical trees don't have as well defined rings because there is no abrupt change in ring growth due to early and late-wood growth.
Jim
Are the growth rings always the same in each species, or are they something that you occasionally find? If its the same all the time, then its a characteristic of the wood. Something like walnut turning brown in the heartwood.
If its something you find on occasion, then its probably bacterial. We get "mineral" in red oak. Its black steaks, and is quite often associated with the growth rings, but not as pronounced as you have. Its bacterial and only occurs in certain areas.
QuoteJim, I would say a lot of that is stain streaks caused by bacteria or fungus and nothing to do with growth rings. The tropical trees don't have as well defined rings because there is no abrupt change in ring growth due to early and late-wood growth.
QuoteAre the growth rings always the same in each species, or are they something that you occasionally find? If its the same all the time, then its a characteristic of the wood. Something like walnut turning brown in the heartwood.
If its something you find on occasion, then its probably bacterial. We get "mineral" in red oak. Its black steaks, and is quite often associated with the growth rings, but not as pronounced as you have. Its bacterial and only occurs in certain areas.
The color pattern is stable from tree to tree of many species. Not all species do this. These unusual trees are what I built my turning blank and hobbywood business on due to the wild colors. It has been many years and still no explanation as to what may cause it. Here are somes photos of sliced cants made into plywood that show the figure.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_TIGRE_CASPI_PLY_2_X_4_r%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_ARI_PARI_PLY_2_X_4_r.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_PINK_FLAME_PLY_2_X_4_r.JPG)
There is no definitive answer on bird's eye maple or bird's eye yellow birch either. Take a number Jim. ;D ;)
Here are some end grain photos and one showing a worm hole but the worm hole does not effect the color.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/BLACK_AGATE_END_GRAIN%7E0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_DALMATION_END_GRAIN.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_ORANGE_AGATE_END_GRAIN.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_TIGRE_CASPI_END_GRAIN.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_pink_flame_P1010002.JPG)
Moose,
I tended to disagree with Swamp when looking at the first 2 pics, but the 3rd shot leaves me less certain. My problem with the first 2 pics is that the rings narrowed too abruptly to be normal crowding. It's like something suddenly happened. We had an area of offsite trees that started growing when we had a warm spell in December and when normal weather returned all the trees suffered freezing damage to their crowns. That caused an abrupt reduction in ring width that they never recovered from, kind of like your first 2 pics, but in our case it was a lot worse. But the 3rd pic looks more like what I would expect from crowding, a more gradual narrowing of the rings. If the stumps generally all look like the 3rd pic, yeah, normal stand crowding. If like 1 & 2, I would ask if something happened, maybe a defoliator? Doesn't mean they won't come back, but see below.
Although I have bored thousands of trees to look at the rings, I pay a lot more attention to crown condition and crown ratio when evaluating what I would expect after thinning. I want no less than a 30% crown ratio, closer to 40% is better. And at 30%, it needs to be a healthy, dense crown. 25% crown ratio or real thin crowns at 30% ore even more & it's time for a regeneration cut.
We don't get regrowth in softwood in winter up here. On occasion we will see aspen wake up after an early winter (Mid Nov) warm spell. Budworm hasn't been a problem here for about 15 years, but It's coming. I see it around the UP and the Soo (both sides of the border). I've seen spruce and fir cookies like that many times and knowing the history of the stand helps to. Pretty sure it's crowding. How come all the sudden at the end , starting 5 or 6 years before it was cut? As I said, every 25-30 years in eastern spruce and fir and you have to do something. Most land owners in this area are happy as punch to get one thinning done, let alone carrying on later.
This picture is of the area the Spruce was harvested from.
It may be hard for you to see if it was from over crowding from this picture.
It is on a northwest slope down from our Cabin and this is the sunset pic.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/CampSunset.jpg)
This one shows the general area also, not too crowded? ???
This picture is around 50 feet from where the Spruce went down.
Looks like a great Bear den with shelter from the north wind now.
I know that'll lay right back down when I cut these trees.
The Spruce stump went right back down went I cut it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/Possible_bear_Den2.JPG)
Here's how it ended up in case you missed it. :)
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45780.0.html
It's not thick, but yes becoming crowded. The problem has always been the economics of intermediate thinnings. The end product of spruce and fir is not high dollar, although spruce does tend to yield better $$ for potential veneer and maybe larger sawlogs. Your talking about 20+ inch trees, where by this time, balsam fir has fallen out of the picture. Many times the question of more money for larger wood gets attractive if you have a log home market. With the sawmills, they usually don't budge on price. It's like the difference between white spruce and black spruce, they won't pay more for slower grown black.
Gary C in regards to your posting # 15. If the lady is having a problem thinning the trees because she is a tree hugger try two different approaches.
1) See if you can get some cookies from a nearby precommercial thinnig that was successfully released. You'll need a thinning that was done a couple of years ago and if you can't get cookies than get some core borings. What you want to show her is how the trees released and the increase in the tree ring size after the trees were released. Then show her a core boring from one of her trees that shows the tight suppressed ring count that is undoubtedly present. Sometimes that is enough to convince them that a thinning would be beneficial.
2) Get a couple of small 4-5 inch diameter flower pots and fill them with some good planting soil. Sow 40-50 carrot seeds in each one. When the seeds germinate let one grow unthinned and thin the other one to 4 or 5 carrots. Let her see the difference in carrot size after a season of growing. And then let her know that that is what is happening to her trees. Once you can convince a landowner that a thinning is beneficial and they can see for themselves the increase in growth and vigor of their trees they really come around and become very enthusiastic supporters of active mangement. Once that happens things really fall into place for everyone. Good luck if you decide to persue this matter further and let us know how it turns out.
I'm afraid she is a lost cause. She told me the last time I was there that I was sure persistant. I did show her the cookie in the picture and explained all that to her. And then she said she knew all that but they would have to carry her out of there before anyone cut a single tree out of there. One of her big fears is in the winter the wind would blow thru the opened up woods. The nice house and gardens sit right in the middle of that woods.
From what one of the neighbors told me, her and her sisters may have to sell the place soon as they cannot afford the taxes. Probably the inheritance taxes.
Plus all my other jobs in that area are done and I don't get back there much. But then again, I can be persistant. ;D
The lady might have a valid point. I've seen yellow birch bend to the ground if left to grow to tall and skinny before a thinning and I have seen advanced fir regrowth get too tall and skinny before a thin and have the wind take 20-30% of the leave trees by snapping them off like snapping wax bean pods. ;)
I don't think blowdown is in her thinking at the moment. She is more worried about the wind and snow blowing thru her little compound in the middle of that stand.
The sisters of this lady live nearby and she moved back there from Texas when their parents passed. I guess part of the problem is they have mostly sagebrush and few trees in Texas so this lady is trying to save as many trees as she can cause she thinks there are not many left. ::)
Don't see much of that mentality in these parts. There are folks that don't want trees cut on their ground, but not because they are against logging so much as they are protecting their pension supplement cheques from being cut off from the extra income claimed. :D And if someone has other reasons, well the family usually winds up dividing and conquering to pay the tax man the inheritance taxes. I've seen that very thing more times than I can count and often since everyone owns dibs, the lot will not be managed afterward, won't even get free thinning done.
Been a long time since i checked in. But i agree with Swamp. You will see a larger set of rings in the future once the tree gets over the stress root compaction and is able to put on more branch mass to make use of the extra space, and less competition.
I am a southern forester so i have no idea to the life span cycle of those trees but here in the south if you waited that long for a thin you will never recover the lost growth. Trees only have so much growth potential in them, weather there shaded or open grown they all have the same potential, but a supressed tree may only ever reach 8 inches DBH (in the case of southern pine) when the surrounding trees are 18" DBH. If you thin the stand and take the 65 year old trees off the 8" one it will never reach 18" probably may not ever get 2" bigger. Thin the bug trees and you wont see a boost. Its because the fast growth in southern pines takes place in the first 25 years or so. If you loose that potential at the first part of its life its gone and gone for good. Thats why we say to thin early and often.
Don't hide away for so long next time Nate. I was talking to Jeff (the boss man here) this summer trying to recall your name and where from. The conversation was about some of you younger foresters we haven't seen online much for quite some time. Life takes it's little turns and shifts gears as they say.
Don't be strangers, some of us do too much typing at times. Sometimes type stuff that leads you to wonder sometimes as well. Gary_C asked me one time if I'm ever wrong. :D :D L0L!
Just keep on keep'n on. ;D
How's the deer hunting in SC this year?