Yesterday I spent the day sawing some logs a customer brought to the mill. He is redoing a log cabin and is needing timbers to replace several rotted out logs. First question is how do you guy charge for sawing timbers? We are actually doing some bartering but was wondering how others charged for sawing timbers, hourly?
Next issue, the pics below are of the first log I sawed, without any doubt this was the hardest wood I have ever sawed to date. The customer thought it was an oak but wasnt sure. I do have trouble sometimes identifying hardwood logs to what species they belong. We ended up sawing it into timbers, the pics are of the bark of the tree and a few slabs to show the color.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25380/willie_3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25380/willie_1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25380/willie_2.jpg)
Hourly rate, and it looks like Elm, but I will let the experts do the identifying.
Hickory.
Sounds to me you need to charge by the hour if it is that hard sawing. How old are the logs? Hard for me to tell by the picture but the sapwood makes me think it's not oak. Someone here will tell you what it is. I'm going way out on a limb and saying hickory. I'm not a pro but the bark sure looks like it.
Hickory is what I thought also, first time ever sawing it if it was hickory. Hard stuff for sure, i started with my WM 10degree blade and had to quickly go to my 7degree blade. The 10 wouldnt even go through it.
Quote from: Sawdust Lover on October 14, 2012, 04:42:50 PM
Sounds to me you need to charge by the hour if it is that hard sawing. How old are the logs? Hard for me to tell by the picture but the sapwood makes me think it's not oak. Someone here will tell you what it is. I'm going way out on a limb and saying hickory. I'm not a pro but the bark sure looks like it.
The logs were cut about 5 months ago, if its hickory that would explain the slow sawing,
Here's a question for you yanks, I'm figuring that board in the pics to be about 8" wide and if so that would mean there is about 2" of sapwood all on one side of the board...if you cut that board down here it would be so bent, if the customer threw it away it'd hit him in the back of the head - even more so with a very dense timber. so over there is it not the same?
I'll also say hickory,I've got some growing beside the house & I went to look,Looks like the pic- to me.
Quote from: sigidi on October 14, 2012, 05:21:28 PM
Here's a question for you yanks, I'm figuring that board in the pics to be about 8" wide and if so that would mean there is about 2" of sapwood all on one side of the board...if you cut that board down here it would be so bent, if the customer threw it away it'd hit him in the back of the head - even more so with a very dense timber. so over there is it not the same?
The pics are of some of the slabs I had to take off to get the right size timber, the log had alot of taper with one end being 24 and the other around 13. The pic shown was about 8in wide and 2in thick, the other end of the slabe was 1/4thick.
On another note I had to explain to the customer several times why the timber was not as big as he had hoped. With the small end being 13 and only looked at the big end and couldnt understand why we had to loose so much wood (actually sawed up the slabs into planks). With the big end being 24in he thought we should be able to get two 6x12 timbers out of it. After spending a while showing him the taper in the logs I just gave up and went on sawing. The log was 16ft long which is what he wanted in length. Im still learning (been sawing 2 years now) but I hate for people who know nothing about sawing to try and tell me how to saw etc.
a good tell for hickory...if you have a large chunk of the bark and you begin to think it is thick and tough enough to saw a few boards out of the bark, then it's definitely Hickory. ;)
I would say hickory too, and as a side note, I would prefer to cut seasoned hickory before green. It makes and clears the chips better for me. Just saying I have tried it all, green hickory just plain flat (stinks) not the smell, the brutal punishment of the heat. I love the smell, and this should be a good indicator of the wood too. Oak has its smell and hickory has a nice smell. I have noticed that hickory beams twist just abit during drying, as some will do regardless of species, but hickory for sure. just my take on it.
Back to your question on the pricing, I usually saw by the bd/ft. and if all goes well, this will come out to the avg, of the 65-80 buck range, and small orders or should I say special orders the custormer most always pays above this anyway. Knowing they need what they want, and understanding most mills will not do the work. And the question of taper, as related to how much will come out of the log, I just love the simple diagrams in the sawdust floor and a piece of bark for the scratcher. when they see the bow of the log on the bed, see the taper of the log, and watch the process, they come to a pretty quick understanding without much debate. this is why I keep a seperate slab stack for the custom orders, they can have it all, it loads easy enough and they get their log(s) back. Most of the time they just want the lumber after all is said and done.
On this side of the Blue Ridge, it is known as "pignut" Hickory. It it has been down for a while, you did certainly have your hands full sawing it. It is truly tough on nails and carpenters. Regards, Clark
Hickory. It will make you say strange things to your mill.
I'm glad to hear (not in a bad way or negative way) that I am not the only one with issues with hickory, I really thought It was me, and my mill. I love the smell of hickory, just hate to fight the logs, to the point, I really avoid it at all cost. And this seems like such a waste, lots of good hickory logs that I should be cutting. Wish there were a way to cut them with success.
The last time that I sawed hickory, I swore that I would not saw it again, and so far, I have not.
Quote from: drobertson on October 14, 2012, 08:55:31 PM
I'm glad to hear (not in a bad way or negative way) that I am not the only one with issues with hickory, I really thought It was me, and my mill. I love the smell of hickory, just hate to fight the logs, to the point, I really avoid it at all cost. And this seems like such a waste, lots of good hickory logs that I should be cutting. Wish there were a way to cut them with success.
Lemme chuck Sparky at some of that hickory, I bet he eats it up like vegemite on toast ;D ;D what is the density of it?? anything like our ironbark at 1250 kg per cubic metre -btw that aint our hard stuff - just some harder stuff I get hold of 8)
Quote from: WDH on October 14, 2012, 10:11:32 PM
The last time that I sawed hickory, I swore that I would not saw it again, and so far, I have not.
The last time Danny sawed Hickory and he said he never would again, I said I would never saw my FIRST Hickory. So far, I haven't. His words good enough for me. ;D
Thought about this all night, after finishing the oak I have on the deck, I am going to try another, This has bothered me for some time now, lots of good hickory to saw, there has to be a way,
Your picture of the bark is not very clear. Was the bark tightly fitted to the tree and hard or were the bark edges soft to the fingernail? The bark fissures look deep in your picture.
Do you have a picture of the end grain of the lumber?
Quote from: WDH on October 14, 2012, 10:11:32 PM
The last time that I sawed hickory, I swore that I would not saw it again, and so far, I have not.
And after the next time you'll be able to say the same thing!
Herb
Elm was my first thought, but I wouldn't argue it. Pignut hickory is a good guess, too. One way to tell is smell. Hickory smells like wood. Elm smells like the barn yard :D
And I am not arguing. Since I am no expert I do not mind being wrong. I just want to be sure that the wood is properly identified and my view of the pictures is not that good.
I am interested in what jumped out and made the bark and wood identifiable.
Looking strictly at the bark, I thought it was Elm, too.
Cutting hickory is difficult for a couple of reasons. 1. The wood if very hard 2. There always seems to be lots of stress in hickory.
Happy Birthday Jake. I never realized that you and our Son, Marty are the same age. :)
When sawing other peoples' logs, I charge the same per BF for timbers as I do for lumber. Yes, there are fewer passes with the saw when making a timber, but:
- You still spend time opening up the log and dealing with slabs.
- Those opening cuts are usually harder on the blade.
- It takes more time and effort to get big timbers off the mill.
Regardless of which billing method I may use on a particular job, I have often kept up and figured it myself after the job was completed. It is amazing how close the resulting charges are when comparing the two methods.
Sawing two 6x12 out of one log would have been a wrong move for timbers. The reason why is, if it is hickory it would distort real bad.
Whenever the two dimensions of a timber are over 5" then that timber should be cut "boxed heart".
If you don't you'll end up with some lumber that will move a lot when it starts drying out.
Some customers "NEED" to be educated about timbers.
For sawing timbers out of customer's logs I charge the same price as sawing boards for the previously mentioned reasons. Basically handling the timber.
In order to figure out what diameter log you need to saw out a 6x12 timber you just take a framing square and measure diagonally across from one leg at 6" to the other leg at 12".
The answer, which is 13 7/16", will tell you what size log you need.
I have made up a drawing to show you this.
See attached pdf drawing.
Jim Rogers
Arky used the "half-again" rule to figure what size log you needed to cut a square timber. I modified it to use with rectangular timbers.
Average the the two dimensions ... (6+12)/2 = 9 ... and multiply by 1.5 (half again) to get 13.5". It works until you get above a 2:1 ratio of width to thickness.
My local forester came by today, he looked at the log and came to the conclusion it is hickory. This was the first/last hickory I have had at the mill since opening last year. Lesson learned, thanks for the help!
Majicman, at first look however he said Elm, and also said it was a very odd color of hickory he thought,
First/last hickory ???. :D :D :D
I am in the same boat Max ;D. Hickory was made to produce nuts for squirrels :-\.
Quote from: sigidi on October 14, 2012, 05:21:28 PM
if you cut that board down here it would be so bent, if the customer threw it away it'd hit him in the back of the head - even more so with a very dense timber. so over there is it not the same?
Sigidi,
It's almost the same up here. The difference is that here the trees bend counter-clockwise.
– Loren
I'm glad that none of you like to cut hickory. More for me.
Okay, I'll admit that it's really hard, but it's also really strong. When I need a piece of wood to do a tough job, I think of hickory. It usually comes through for me.
There's lots of shagbark hickory on my place, and I like it. The squirrels do too.
– Loren
No one has mentioned the best thing to do with Hichory; cut it into chunks and toss it on the grille or in the smoker for that wonderful hickory smoked meat taste!