Couple of Clark Ranger 667C questions

[Garrik]

I am new to these machines, and trying to figure a few things out.  Any help, or pointers to experts, or sources of parts, most welcome and appreciated.  This is a late 70's vintage 667C with a winch and a grapple.

The skidder is overheating.  I have checked the engine cooling system extensively, and am convinced that it works.  Among other things, I replaced the entire radiator core and both tanks.

In the mx manual, in the torque converter section, it says that if the machine overheats, "check for collapsed or ruptured hoses that might cause overheating."  But it does not specify which hoses to check, or have a diagram or anything like that.  I am guessing that there are hoses running to the radiator (that are supposed to carry transmission fluid to and from the radiator for cooling) - are they obvious?  Any hints which hoses to check, and/or where they are?  Or should I just start at the radiator and work backwards from there to the transmission/torque converter?

Another obvious thing to check, although not specified in the manual, is the "full flow 55 micron replacement element type filter assembly" that filters the transmission fluid used by the tranny, torque converter and winch.  The manual then goes on to use lots of scary language about always using the correct filter cartridge.  But it does not provide a part number for the filter (and neither does the parts manual, at least not that I can find).  Anyone know the part #, and/or have a source for a replacement filter cartridge?  It also does not specify the fluid to use if I want to flush the system.  Again, anyone have the proper reference for the fluid?

Thanks much!  Any other suggestions for things to check re: the overheating issue would be most appreciated.

[Garrik]

Should have specified that this one has the Detroit engine.  What they call the GM engine in the manual.

[mike_belben]

If the top radiator hose is rock hard and the cap is venting gas and occasional liquid before the temp comes up, its usually a headgasket.  Easiest way is to route the radiator overflow hose into a clear jug with water where you can see it during operation.  Watch for bubbles and antifreeze color in it. 

[grabber green]

When does it get hot and how fast does it heat up? While pulling a load or just cruising ,sitting while idling ? My 667c has always ran on the cool side.Also my manual says the trans uses dextron atf.

[Garrik]

Finally found the reference to Dexron ATF - thanks for the hint.

The skidder runs fine until you try to move it.  The transmission runs through the gears, but the skidder moves very slowly, much more slowly than it should.  RPM's run high.  And then the unit overheats.

I am confident that the issue is not related to the engine or engine cooling system.  Replaced the head after the previous owner allowed the temps to get too high.

Transmission fluid level is normal.

Maybe the torque converter is shot?  Maybe there is a blocked line somewhere that is preventing transmission fluid from circulating properly.  Maybe the filter is clogged/blocked.

Other thoughts?  Any suggestions for someone to rebuild the torque converter if it needs it, or a source for a rebuild kit?

Thanks!

[Garrik]

Is it possible that the transmission / torque converter filter element is part #215 502 - does that sound right to anyone?

[mike_belben]

That does sound more like a matter of power transmission.  I am assuming this is some form of powershift but may be wrong.

Start with any sump screens and filters and any mechanical couplings.  In that process youll find out if there are high levels of fiber or metal or chunks in the system indicating slippage or breakage, usually accompanied by stinky burnt fluids. 

  If that all looks good start looking at any external cooler hoses.  If that pathway is blocked by internal delamination on the suction side there wont be any obvious evidence but it will starve any unit of fluid to engage the planetaries, as well as internal lubrication.  


After that i would look at control valving.  I dont have the specific experience of @kiko or @snowstorm or @bushmechanic but have found that gaskets and orings and flat mating surfaces are mighty important inside these things. Also look at the linkages that stroke the control valve spools.  Worn out pins will make them only travel part way so youre sitting half in gear half in neutral. Weld and grind and rebore and oversize old parts as needed to get the tolerance back.  

[grabber green]

Everything Belben said plus,get yourself a gauge and start checking pressures, the procedures in the manual. Also is the winch slow ,weak or does it slip?    And looks like my notes say I've been using a WIX 51133 trans filter in my 667c. You may have to pull yours to double check yours is the same.

[quilbilly]

Where is oldseabee when you need him. I wonder if he covered this in any of his posts. We've got something similar on our 666c. 

[Plankton]

Where is oldseabee when you need him. I wonder if he covered this in any of his posts. We've got something similar on our 666c.

His advice helped me quite a few times with my 664. Had all the numbers and all the procedures what a helpful man hope hes doing well.

[kiko]

As far as the torque converter is concerned I would check the suction hose to transmission pump as well as the pump itself.  The torque conveyor will heat up if there is a suction issue.  On the engine there are left hand and right rotation water pumps depending on how the engine was assembled. This applies to the fuel supply pump as well  Also your engine fan should be half way into the shroud and should be blowing forward.

[snowstorm]

that trans is a bit different than the one i have. on my clark trans 2 hydraulic lines run from the trans to the cooler in the bottom tank of the rad. normal operating temp 200 to 250. mercon is what i use. motor oil is fine wt depending on air temp. rather than make us guess. what is getting hot? motor? or trans?? temp gauge says what? temp gun really helps. that have a travel range? leave it in work range.  2sp power shift? 453n? or t?i knew someone that had 1 yrs ago. that thing would pull but being a dd it needs to be run wide open 

[Garrik]

Ok, two new data points today.

1) The previous owner appears to have filled the transmission in this skidder with motor oil.  15w30 to be precise.  To verify this, transmission dipstick to the left of the driver's seat looks like it is covered in motor oil, clear, yellow, clean, but motor oil, not Dexron ATF as the manual recommends.

2) The transmission appears to be very overfilled with motor oil.  The dipstick is covered many inches above the "FULL" mark.

Any thoughts about whether either of these things might cause the symptoms that I am seeing.

And to answer someone's question, the engine runs hot - that is to say that the engine coolant temperature reading, which several folks have told me should be around 160 degrees, gets up towards and even over 200 (at which point I shut the engine down).  And while the engine revs as expected, the forward progress of the skidder, no matter what the gear, is much slower than feels correct.

[Garrik]

Did some reading, and looked at the manual more carefully.

Seems like using motor oil in the transmission is acceptable, and pretty normal in some circles.  Anyone feel differently?

Overfilling the transmission, on the other hand, cannot be good.  But I checked the dipstick cold, manual is very specific to check it hot...  So I will do that, and then drain the excess if there is, in fact, excess, and see what happens.

Other thoughts/hints/suggestions?

[snowstorm]

motor oil in the trans is not the problem. you check it running warmed up. shut off it will be a couple inches over full. my clark book says motor oil atf or tdh in the trans. 160 engine temp is to cold 200 to hot

[Firewoodjoe]

If this is a Clark trans I'm pretty sure you just have oil lines going to the oil cooler on the radiator. If there was a trans problem I can't see it heating the engine up very fast. 

[quilbilly]

How many forward and reverse gears do you have? If it's the same tranny we had in our 666C then I think the recommended motor oil was straight 30W or atf. Ours usually operated right around 180° also. Sometimes pushed 200 depending on weather. 

[mike_belben]

International crawlers ran straight motor oil too. 

[Ed_K]

 My 4 53n runs at 196 degs and may get to 205 if it's 85-90 out. When I got it back from a full rebuild rebuilt head and all I started up a hill to get a hitch and it heated to 230 shut it off and call the rebuilder, he came out and found that it had an air bubble so the coollant wasn't getting to the radiator. Runs great now.

[snowstorm]

now that we know you are on the west coast. what is the air temp when it runs 200 degrees??when the trans oil is at the correct level after letting it sit over night pull the stick and file a mark .