Another Debarker thread…

[Arcticmiller]

I was reading through some of the home-brewed Debarker threads getting inspired and amped up to build my own when I had this thought, I don't have the spare time, parts often take weeks for me to get them, and whatever I build might not work then I'm back to square one. That could be expensive in time and mental energy.

I have a home made mill with an 18hp Briggs. I can fabricate some things weld, cut grind etc. and consider myself to be fairly capable in that regard, but short on some tools and materials-and motivation to come up with a home brewed solution.

With those thoughts the price on the woodmizer and timber king Debarker aren't bad. Has anyone bought a Debarker and installed it on their home brewed setup? I'm certain it would require upgrading to a larger truck sized battery from the little motorcycle battery I'm running currently.

I assume since the Debarker only runs for a few initial cuts that would work?

What say the experts?

It appears as if as long as I fabricated a mounting bracket and made up a harness with a relay and switch it'd be fairly straightforward to put the small version on just about any mill, ideally it would be attached to a shiny new woodmizer, but that's not really in the budget.

The alternative is to put that money into a sharpener/setter combo instead and just keep doing what I've been doing, would that be a better option?

[chickenchaser]

Will you be primarily sawing for yourself or do you intend to be open for business?

My first mill had no debarker.

My new woodmizer came with that option added. I used it until an up/down switch issue caused a hard landing that bent the blade and the shaft.

I was told it would require a new motor as that was a non serviceable part and just use it until it laid down. I didn't particularly like the vibration so I removed the blade and haven't used it in the last 500 hours or so.

I can tell a difference in blade life...but I do have sharpening options nearby.

It's one of those nice things to have but not a killer being without. I had trouble with the $300+ replacement motor and my irregular/intermittent sawing at the time.

CC

[SawyerTed]

The increase in blade life between sharpenings will pay for a debarker in just a few days sawing for me.  My debarker on the LT35 went down (bad breaker) during a busy week.  My blade use more than doubled. 

Besides blade cost and sharpening, the down time for changes had to be factored in. Changing blades every 200 board feet slows thing down a lot.

Then there's the lumber quality issues from trying to make a quickly dulled blade last longer   But you guys may be more disciplined that me in that regard. 

For my sawing, a debarker is a must.  I often have customers who just don't know or can't manage to keep logs clean.

[chickenchaser]

Then there's the lumber quality issues from trying to make a quickly dulled blade last longer   But you guys may be more disciplined that me in that regard. 

For my sawing, a debarker is a must.  I often have customers who just don't know or can't manage to keep logs clean.

Unfortunately, Ted, I'm not very disciplined.  :

I have been fortunate to have relatively clean logs and pine logs that have aged to slip the bark fairly often.

I have been debating whether to replace the blade and motor for the upcoming REAL job.

[DanielW]

One of the things you have to keep in mind when mounting a debarker onto a mill that didn't have the option is the support rigidity: The debarkers have a (comparatively) hefty motor out at the end of the arm, and if you just try to bolt the arm to your guard/housing it'll flex and bounce around too much and not consistently cut the blade line. The Woodmizers and TK mills have pretty rigid framework/panning where the debarker arms mount. With the Woodmizer saw-blade style with its narrow kerf debarking blade, it only has to flex a little bit before it's not cutting the saw line and not doing any good. With the TK carving wheel type attachments there's a little more leeway as it has a wider kerf, but it requires a correspondingly larger/heavier motor to run, so your framework has to be beefy to support the heavier motor.

Norwood had (maybe still has?) an interesting debarking attachment which allows some placement flexibility and was good for mounting on lighter frames (I know a guy who ordered one to put on his Range Road mill, never saw it after he installed it though): The motor is mounted up on the saw frame and drives the debarking head through a heavy-duty flex shaft, so the debarking head itself is much lighter and can mount to a lighter frame. I can't find it on their website anymore, however. Quite possibly they've stopped making it: Norwood really switched gears to focus on the more basic/simple/economy mills without any attachments to compete with Woodland, ever since Woodland opened up an hour South of them. Here's the only reference I can find to the Norwood debarker: https://lug.eco/produto/descascador/

Sounds like you'll have no problem beefing up your homemade mill enough to support any debarking head. More concerning might be your battery/alternator setup: Those DC motors can really suck the amp-hours. If your battery is just a small unit meant only for starting the engine and the charging system is not a real alternator, but the basic, low-amp unit built into the Briggs, there's a good chance it won't keep up and you'll burn something up. If your mill's stationary and near a power source, you could get the 120V option (which I think TK still offers?). Or just stick a high duty-cycle battery on there: As long as the ratio of debarking time to non-debarking time is low enough, the battery probably has enough reserve to run the motor for a few cuts, then the Briggs can can slowly trickle charge it during the rest of the cutting.

[chickenchaser]

Another thing to consider is the ability to reverse roll or make multiple turns on slabbing a log in order to saw below the bark after the opening cut. This is time consuming (absent a chain turner) and somewhat wasteful in most circumstances but extremely dirty logs can warrant this.

[jpassardi]

I considered adding a LT35 debarker to my LT15. The European LT15 can be bought with a debarker. As Daniel noted above, you'll likely need to add an alternator. Without I think there will be too much voltage drop to turn the motor fast enough as well as battery discharge. If/when I do, I will add an alternator.
The Woodmizer unit is about $1500 which is reasonable.

Daniel, Is the mechanical Norwood one driven off the engine shaft? If yes, there must also be clutch to engage/disengage, correct?

[DanielW]

Daniel, Is the mechanical Norwood one driven off the engine shaft? If yes, there must also be clutch to engage/disengage, correct?

The Norwood one still uses an electric motor to drive it (I'm pretty sure, anyway), but I suppose there's no reason you couldn't clutch it to the engine. But you can get high torque DC motors and those mini 35 Amp single-wire alternators so cheap these days that it might be cheaper to go the electric route.

The Norwood one also uses an electric linear actuator/cylinder to pull the debarker arm against the log. I believe it pulls it via a spring mechanism, so it doesn't drive it too hard into the log and the spring pivot lets it follow the contour of the log.

When I was considering making a debarker, I thought about making one that used a second electric motor that maintained a constant torque and 100% duty cycle in the stalled condition to keep it against the log and save some machining and part cost for a spring/release mechanism (something like a stepper motor would work), but I never got around to building one: I use a circular mill for about 90% of my cutting, so it's not worth my putting much time or money into fancy contraptions for the bandmill.

[barbender]

 Arcticmiller, if I was in your situation I would probably spend the money on a sharpener and setter. Even buying a factory debarker, it will take a lot of fab work and fiddling with it to get it to work correctly I would think, not to mention the electrical requirements.

[jpassardi]

I have to agree with you BB: sharpener/setter first then debarker next.

[moodnacreek]

If you saw boney logs I don't think those little kerf cleaners will work that good. A debarker is for the most part a stand alone machine and that is what we need but it is a whole mill by itself. I used to pressure wash my logs except in freezing weather.

[Magicman]

Also, you need to build a swing-away mounting so that "not if but when" you drop the Debarked down on top of a cant you don't break or bend something. 

[Arcticmiller]

Arcticmiller, if I was in your situation I would probably spend the money on a sharpener and setter. Even buying a factory debarker, it will take a lot of fab work and fiddling with it to get it to work correctly I would think, not to mention the electrical requirements.

Ok, they are both on "the list" but I'm trying to get a good priority order. Lots of my logs have quite a bit of wind-blown silt, fine sand etc... nothing usually dragged through the dirt too bad, so I think a standard debarker would work pretty well. The carrier for my wheels is s pretty thick I beam so support for the extra weight is basically a non issue.

Probably ought to spend the money on a few more dozen bands first. I'm getting a collection, but it'll be nice to be more "self contained" as far as the blade sharpening/setting goes.

I usually cut two clean faces at 90 degrees to each-other first to get into clean wood faster. My clamping system leaves something to be desired still so I can't position the log with the first cut face perpendicular to the blade effectively. Until I get that upgraded anyway. A turner would be nice, but til then I just use the old armstrong method.

There's almost too many options for upgrading a mill. It's kind of difficult to decide where to start at times.

[Arcticmiller]

Will you be primarily sawing for yourself or do you intend to be open for business?

My first mill had no debarker.

My new woodmizer came with that option added. I used it until an up/down switch issue caused a hard landing that bent the blade and the shaft.

I was told it would require a new motor as that was a non serviceable part and just use it until it laid down. I didn't particularly like the vibration so I removed the blade and haven't used it in the last 500 hours or so.

I can tell a difference in blade life...but I do have sharpening options nearby.

It's one of those nice things to have but not a killer being without. I had trouble with the $300+ replacement motor and my irregular/intermittent sawing at the time.

CC

No intention of starting a business, nor is there a local market that exists. I'm just interested in saving the wear on the bands.

Currently my mill is all manual, but I would like to upgrade slowly with a loader, turner etc to save the wear and tear on the back. The goal is to be able to mill in 5, 10, 15+ years down the road. Not wear myself out physically.

[Arcticmiller]

One of the things you have to keep in mind when mounting a debarker onto a mill that didn't have the option is the support rigidity: The debarkers have a (comparatively) hefty motor out at the end of the arm, and if you just try to bolt the arm to your guard/housing it'll flex and bounce around too much and not consistently cut the blade line. The Woodmizers and TK mills have pretty rigid framework/panning where the debarker arms mount. With the Woodmizer saw-blade style with its narrow kerf debarking blade, it only has to flex a little bit before it's not cutting the saw line and not doing any good. With the TK carving wheel type attachments there's a little more leeway as it has a wider kerf, but it requires a correspondingly larger/heavier motor to run, so your framework has to be beefy to support the heavier motor.

Norwood had (maybe still has?) an interesting debarking attachment which allows some placement flexibility and was good for mounting on lighter frames (I know a guy who ordered one to put on his Range Road mill, never saw it after he installed it though): The motor is mounted up on the saw frame and drives the debarking head through a heavy-duty flex shaft, so the debarking head itself is much lighter and can mount to a lighter frame. I can't find it on their website anymore, however. Quite possibly they've stopped making it: Norwood really switched gears to focus on the more basic/simple/economy mills without any attachments to compete with Woodland, ever since Woodland opened up an hour South of them. Here's the only reference I can find to the Norwood debarker: https://lug.eco/produto/descascador/

Sounds like you'll have no problem beefing up your homemade mill enough to support any debarking head. More concerning might be your battery/alternator setup: Those DC motors can really suck the amp-hours. If your battery is just a small unit meant only for starting the engine and the charging system is not a real alternator, but the basic, low-amp unit built into the Briggs, there's a good chance it won't keep up and you'll burn something up. If your mill's stationary and near a power source, you could get the 120V option (which I think TK still offers?). Or just stick a high duty-cycle battery on there: As long as the ratio of debarking time to non-debarking time is low enough, the battery probably has enough reserve to run the motor for a few cuts, then the Briggs can can slowly trickle charge it during the rest of the cutting.

I hadn't come across that Norwood option yet- that's an interesting one. It'd help a two post mill balance a bit better maybe.

[fluidpowerpro]

I agree with BB and JP.
Investing in a sharpener and a setter is a separate decision.
I would do that first before adding a de-barker.

[Arcticmiller]

As we all know time and money are finite resources, so I greatly appreciate the time you folks have given to weigh in on the matter. There's just no substitute for the experience that y'all have, getting the sharpener first is likely now one rung ahead ofthe debarker.

In past years when I've milled a lot of driftwood logs they were HARD on blades, I'm hoping to use fewer of those as time for on. But this year found about 16-20 really nice sized trees that washed in, so I'm doing that again. Maybe use a sacrificial blade for opening cuts then change to a new for the clean wood...

Now to decide between a cooks or a woodmizer lol. That'll be a many factored decision. Seems like they both have a lot of positive features, but maybe the ease of switching between blade types may go to the woodmizer. My research is in the beginning phases at this point. Building an adequate blade inventory will make things less pressing etc.


Without resources like this forum I'd have walked into many more mistakes than I have. It's saved me many headaches! I find it amazing that so much knowledge is just "on tap" and available for the asking. It's a huge leg up for us beginners.

[Stephen1]

Maybe fill out your profile so we know where you are. Makes it easier to answer your questions.
I would spend my time and money on a CBN sharpener and a setter. Maybe even fab one yourself. I would think washed up logs will have the sand embedded deep in the wood and the debarker will not work as well as you hope. my debarker is a large DC motor and you need a big alternator and good batter to keep it running. Also will your saw motor have enough power to run an alternator and saw blade at the same time.

[SawyerTed]

Sawing driftwood means all bets are off on debarkers. 

Knowing it's driftwood I will agree on the sharpener and setter.   Debarking for other logs can be done other ways. 

Would carbide or bi-metal blades work better on driftwood?

[Arcticmiller]

Sawing driftwood means all bets are off on debarkers. 

Knowing it's driftwood I will agree on the sharpener and setter.   Debarking for other logs can be done other ways. 

Would carbide or bi-metal blades work better on driftwood?

I'm sure they'd work fine, but.... Maybe painful on the pocketbook lol!

[Nealm66]

I have ok luck with the log wizard. I bought a grizzly planer blade sharpener for when it gets dull. Probably 2-3 minutes to bark a 6-8" wide strip if the bark isn't too thick. Just a thought

[DanielW]

Would carbide or bi-metal blades work better on driftwood?

Bi-Metal might help, but usually carbides are not great for dirty or metal-containing logs: In regular sawing carbide works excellent and last ages. The teeth are hard, but brittle: if you hit something tougher than the carbide (sand, rock, etc.), they'll chip - and often chip so deep that they can't be sharpened again.

For smaller runs less than 20 logs or so, I'd definitely be looking into one of those chainsaw debarker attachments to clear the cut line of the saw. The Log Wizard ones are very good quality, but a little pricey if it's not going to be a regularly-used item.

I have a cheapo Amazon knock-off I picked up to take with me when I bring one of my old Belsaws to the local antique machinery show, because I usually saw whatever logs folks bring me for giggles. Usually the folks bringing them are not very well versed in skidding logs, and they look as if they've been dragged 5 miles though a wet gravel pit by the time they get to me. I picked up the cheapo log-wizard knock-off for about $100, stuck it on an old Stihl 260 powerhead I had kicking around, and didn't really expect it to last very long. That was a few years ago, and it's still doing just dandy. As mentioned above, it only takes a minute or two to clear the pass line of the saw. For a small number of logs or when you're just having fun at a show like I do, an extra minute or two per log isn't a deal-breaker.

[NaySawyer]

There may be some lessons learned about debarker design by taking a look at some of the old (and new) sheep shearing setups.  Back in the day multiple stations were run off pulleys on a main shaft.  Power, mechanical action, was achieved with a pantogram lime series of articulated metal rods.  Actually they probably used the whole range of technologies to get where they are today.  Nothing like a bunch of farmers with a couple million repetitive tasks to bring out the best in design.

[Nealm66]

The problem I have with the debarker or back barring withe the chain saws is the mess. Especially when it's raining. Have to clean it of on my woodland mill as it blocks the rails. Not to bad when it's dry with a blower

[Arcticmiller]

Would carbide or bi-metal blades work better on driftwood?

I think this option is worth some serious consideration, it might be a really good stopgap measure until I get all the goodies lined up.... Just put on the bar with the attachment on milling days... I like the idea!

Bi-Metal might help, but usually carbides are not great for dirty or metal-containing logs: In regular sawing carbide works excellent and last ages. The teeth are hard, but brittle: if you hit something tougher than the carbide (sand, rock, etc.), they'll chip - and often chip so deep that they can't be sharpened again.

For smaller runs less than 20 logs or so, I'd definitely be looking into one of those chainsaw debarker attachments to clear the cut line of the saw. The Log Wizard ones are very good quality, but a little pricey if it's not going to be a regularly-used item.

I have a cheapo Amazon knock-off I picked up to take with me when I bring one of my old Belsaws to the local antique machinery show, because I usually saw whatever logs folks bring me for giggles. Usually the folks bringing them are not very well versed in skidding logs, and they look as if they've been dragged 5 miles though a wet gravel pit by the time they get to me. I picked up the cheapo log-wizard knock-off for about $100, stuck it on an old Stihl 260 powerhead I had kicking around, and didn't really expect it to last very long. That was a few years ago, and it's still doing just dandy. As mentioned above, it only takes a minute or two to clear the pass line of the saw. For a small number of logs or when you're just having fun at a show like I do, an extra minute or two per log isn't a deal-breaker.