Can anybody verify that what's called Post Oak growing in Oklahoma is actually a White Oak? And if it is, how bad are the tylosis?
I assume the tylosis is where it gets it's name.
I live in NW Arkansas just shy of Oklahoma, Post Oaks all over here, especially wolf trees in the pastures or old fields that can get huge. You know as well as I that what someone calls something and what it is don't necessarily match, but if it IS a Post oak then it is a tyloses-filled white oak. I think it makes prettier lumber than true Quercus Alba, and has better rays in a good log.
That's what I figured, thank you. A customer wants to dry Post Oak 3 1/2" thick. This isn't going to be easy. He doesn't have the steam that I normally use on thick WO. Thanks again.
Yep White Oak family. They look very similar. The easiest way to tell is the White Oak bark will be sort of scaly at the top of the tree where the Post Oak isn't. I am getting ready to saw some and log some more.
Post oak is one of my favorite of the white oaks the color is much darker then other white oak
So you dry it in a DH kiln?
Quote from: Joey Grimes on January 25, 2017, 09:19:23 PM
Post oak is one of my favorite of the white oaks the color is much darker then other white oak
I agree, post oak seems to be a better grade of white oak. It's called post oak because it grows straight as post, or more like a telephone pole, and the lumber is equally straight. Typically very tight growth rings with very few defects. I will select post oaks out of the log pile at the accumulation yards any time I can see them.
We dry it all the time in a DH kiln.
OK this should work. I imagined that they were called Post Oak because they were used to make post and that was done because the were very resistant to rot because of a lot of tylosis. I had it all wrong. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Quote from: Den Socling on January 25, 2017, 11:08:33 PM
OK this should work. I imagined that they were called Post Oak because they were used to make post and that was done because the were very resistant to rot because of a lot of tylosis. I had it all wrong. Thanks for the enlightenment.
I don't know if that's wrong, maybe it's a regional thing. When they are small they could be used as fence posts, they are certainly straight enough, and white oak is very resistant to rot anyway, so they would last a long time. However around here, we use cedar for fence posts, which lasts longer than the metal "T" posts in some cases.
We have quite a few white oak and post oak on our farm, and in this general area, and post oaks are noticeably straighter, slightly slimmer, with a constant diameter trunk further up the tree, and much fewer limbs on the trunk, and in the woods, look very much like a telephone pole with leaves. They also have very tight growth rings, at least around here, and I get the impression they are slower growing, but that's just my thought. I'm sure WDH could explain it better. However, since they are generally so straight and limb free, they have very few defects and typically result in very clean lumber.
They are more adapted to drier sites than true white oak. Acorns are a lot smaller. Leaves in the shape of a cross. Kind of like water oak in that it can be very high quality or very low quality depending on the site and the stand conditions. Do not believe that the wood is distinguishable from true white oak.
Where I live, post oak is everywhere. In my yard, across the road on state land and corps land. We have zero white oak in my area that I have ever noticed. We have quite a few Bur Oaks. Post oak got its name because it was used as such and lasted a long time. My dad and I used to split post oak in N W Arkansas for post. For neighbors and such $0.15 a post. Big money. I have used them for post 6x6 in two of my drying sheds and they will outlast me. I have never sawed any for furniture lumber yet. Don't know how well it would do or look. It definitely is strong wood. I use two for ramps for loading my tractor onto trailer. bg
In this part of the country, post oak is so named because of it's use as fence posts. It's ideal, rot resistant, splits easily and readily available. I know of fences with post oak posts that are pushing 100 years old..It's my preference for trailer decking, which I saw a good bit of..
Then it's as I initially thought. It sounds like the vessels are packed. How thick are you guys with DH kilns able to dry? Thanks for all of the input.
I have only done up to 9/4. It was all air dried first, though.
I've done a few of 8/4 but don't remember anything special except it wasn't fun drying 2 inch white oak.
I've done a lot of 4/4 and I don't notice a difference to other white oak, but I go pretty slow on it.
Someone might be interested in a few bits of data.
First, there is the white oak group of species which has rounded leaves vs. red oak with pointed ends, has sweet acorns compared to red, and is often considered to be water tight (for most species within this group). White has the large vessels, like red, but in white, they are typically plugged with junk. The plugs are called tyloses.
Within the white oak group there are maybe 20 commercial species. One of these is chestnut oak, which does not have the tyloses, so would not be used for wine barrels. Also, within the white oak group is a species called white oak and another species called post oak. This white oak species is fairly common and widespread, but in the lumber market, the name "white oak" refers to the group and not to the specific species. Much of the post oak otoday has interbred with white oak, so we often have mixed or cross breed.
Post oak is the same density as white oak. It is about 13% weaker and 20% more bendable. The hardness is the same in both. Regular dryng procedures (my experience and textbooks) do not consider post oak to dry any differently than white oak.
The US Forest Service says the name is because it was used for posts. It does resist decay very well, as do all white oaks. What is special about post oak is the fuzzy fibers on the bottom of the leaves.
I'm curious as to what Gene said about post oak and white oak crossbreeding. The post oak in our area is noticeably straight, slim, and clean up the trunk, and the trees do not grow as large as the more common white oak.
Do you guys see a different tree shape in other regions? We have lots of common white oak, only a small percentage is post oak, and I can see a good chance of cross pollination. Maybe I can market it as "North Alabama Hybrid White Oak." ;D
I also didn't realize the significant increase in bending capability. Does this translate into a better choice for customers who do steam bending?
The White Oak is the state tree in Maryland. When I was there in October I saw a lot of these trees. Some on nephews and cousins land. They were very tall, straight and good size. Limbs starting many feet from the bottom. They are a beautiful tree. On there land they cannot cut them without some kind of permit. I didn't understand what that all meant. They may have been in a area that is protected from cutting any trees. All the post oak in our area, the limbs start growing closer to the ground than white oaks which I have seen in other areas. We have lost a lot of post oak here in the past few years, don't know why they have died.bg
As you move West in the South, post oak becomes a limby, low quality tree. However, Central Texans swear by it as a BBQ wood.
I've worked in MO some and post oak is most certainly the bastard of the white oak group. There is nothing about it that would engender anyone to it. I'm not an oak expert but in MO it was pretty clear what trees were white oak and which were post oak. In that neck of the woods I would say a white X post oak hybrid to be very uncommon.
Clark
Well I wrote a schedule for Post Oak in a vacuum kiln without steam. We'll see how it goes. Thank you all.
Post oak can and commonly does hybridize with at least 10 other species in the white oak group. (Hybridization is hard to judge at times.). This hybridization means quite a bit of variation in the wood. Further, the quality is dependent on the environment. So, post oak lumber is really full of variation and is usually poor in quality.
Contributing to the poor quality is the slow growth, plus the fact that branches, when they die, are so decay resistant that they can persist on the stem for decades. This means a lot of pin knots in the lumber; the knots will have included bark plus the knot itself is not well attached to the surrounding wood. (In softwoods, we call these black knots.) Grading post oak lumber is difficult using the standard grading rules. Then there is the distorted grain around the knots.
The best post oak grows in bottomlands in eastern Texas and in the Mississippi River valley in western Mississippi, southeastern Arkansas, and Louisiana. This is called Delta post oak. Another fairly good variety is sand post oak that occurs from southeastern Virginia south to central Florida and west to eastern Oklahoma, and south and central Texas . It is most common on coastal plains and is scattered in the Piedmont. Post oak elsewhere is not too good in quality.
So where does the red oak come into the picture? Whats the difference?
Red Oak doesn't come into the picture at all. Completely different.
The White Oaks are tyloses filled and are sealed from moisture intrusion. Red Oak pores are open.
I know I have posted these pictures before and I took them myself so the quality isn't great but here you can see the difference that Magicman mentions.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10317/Red_Oak_2017~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1487800648)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10317/White_Oak_2017.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1487800688)
Pretty obvious, isn't it?
^
Well that's the coolest thing I've seen all day! :)
Its why White Oak last longer as s fence board. Then what do we do with all this Red Oak? :)
Furniture, paneling, cabinets, etc. Patti is having an Amish shop make a kitchen full of Red Oak cabinets.
Don't you just love tyloses ;D.
Yes, I do. They are making money for me. :D
Just for the heck of it, I stuck two 3.5" thick blocks of oak in with walnut slabs. I ran a very mild and wet schedule. In the picture, the one on the left is supposed to be Post Oak. The one on the right is supposed to be Blackjack. As you can see, the results were about as ugly as can be. Does all Blackjack look like that. Normally, if I see Red Oak that is stained like that, it was diseased. Gypsy Moths can do something like that too but not through 3-1/2" of wood! BTW the walnut looked fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10317/1~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1492009208)
Yes, blackjack has a lot of stain, mineral streaks, and color, and is prone to bacterial infection.
The guy who sent the Post Oak wanted to know why I can dry the White Oak up here but not the Post Oak from OK. I cut a wafer and stuck it under my microscope. First look at our local White Oak.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10317/white_oak.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1492026900)
The vessels are occluded but they are there. Now look at this Post Oak.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10317/Post_Oak~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1492027230)
It's solid!
Tyloses on steroids.
The same customer asked if he can dry 4" Osage Orange. ::) I've got some micrographs from the the last time I dried the stuff. It looks about like the Post Oak only it's orange. :D We decided to dry it at 2" and laminate mantles.