Back in the cedars today

[Kevin]

Great day to be in the woods dropping cedar trees.
I only had one that favoured the lay and the memory stick crapped out before I got it on the ground.
Anyway, this one took two wedges but it came down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSoz8nfK7w4

[Magicman]

Lot bigger cedars than we have.

[Kevin]

You can see it set back just before I started setting the wedges.

[fishpharmer]

MM your right about our Lil Ole ERC. 

Kevin what kinda Cedar is that?  Nice video.  I watched it again after your mentioned the tree setting back, saw it once I knew what tree to look at ;)

[WDH]

Reminds me of a big dead ash tree that I felled poorly last Saturday.  I botched the job royally, so poorly in fact that I felt bad about it the rest of the day and was too embarrassed to tell anyone about it.

I thought about you and the other guys on the Forum that I have learned so much from and about how poorly I executed that job.  Heck, now I am confessing  .

[Don K]

Heck Danny. We all have a few that didn't fall where we wanted. That is what makes the ones that do fall right bring a smile to your face. ;D

Don

[thecfarm]

I'm still on dial up.When I cut cedar,they hate to come down.Most times have to winch them down to the ground.the ones I cut are no bigger than  18 inches.Most of them are growing in a thick area and have no chance to get going to fall to the ground.The cedars I cut are too light to have any force to bring them down,the other tree limbs hold them up.

[Magicman]

I cut a big old Sweetgum last year that fell 180^o from where I wanted it.  A breeze picked up, and I had not set my wedges.  Good thing that I always have 2 chainsaws.

Note to myself...always set those wedges as soon as the saw allows....before it sets back..... ;D

[Kevin]

These are white cedar.
The tops are all touching one another and will stand on the stump after they're cut.
I used my logrite to bring one down yesterday, I was happy to have it.
This one in the picture hit the lay but was too long for the clearing and the top became hung between two other cedars about twenty feet up.


Half the work is picking up the branches and stacking them off on the side of the clearing.
The deer will be in there feasting on them.

[Kevin]

This is the one that died on me, the memory ran out on my camera card and the video quits before the tree hits the dirt snow.
You can see the brush pile off to the right.
This one had a large root right under the hinge so that's what the boring was all about.
I'm trying to get a card now with more memory so this doesn't happen again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oju5WvBFf3A

[timberjack240]

dont feel bad if they dont go where you want them to .. i had one across the road few months back .. cpl weeks befroe that put a 35 in white oak in a corn field and   one time my uncle put a tree into a fancy strawbeery patch owned by a tree huggin lawyer  and to top the cake my pap was cuttin trees along a very untravled road mebe  2 cars a day. needed the skidder.. no skidder around so he decided to saw the hinge off let it flop back acroos the road.. he looked no cars .. sawed it off as the 30 in red oak started to tip he looked and here come the first car all day. perfect timing , sorta. the tree brought the car to an instant stop basiclly it fell rite over top and ungulfed the car and instantly flattened the tires. pregnant lady and 3 kids. no one was hurt luckily she wlked around for 3 hrs couldnt understand what happened or where that tree came from .. i sure wouldt wanna do that today.. needless to say my pap bought a new car and never got to drive it

[Chuck White]

We don't have very many cedars around here that would require a wedge to fell them where we want them to go!

[Kevin]

WDH;
Everyone misses now and then.
The important thing is understanding what went wrong in order to prevent it from happening again.
Where people get into trouble is not understanding why it went wrong, they just assume it amounts to bad luck or good luck.

[Engineer]

I have never had a tree fall where I didn't want it to.

I have, however, changed my mind about the location as the tree was falling....

:D

[submarinesailor]

I have never had a tree fall where I didn't want it to.

I have, however, changed my mind about the location as the tree was falling....

Hate to admit it......But,  BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. : : : : : : : : : : : ;D

Bruce

[Magicman]

I also need to adopt that ...."excuse".... :D

I had a big old SYP to spin on me and wedge the saw bar.  It then hung in another tree and really looked dangereous.  I  didn't have another saw, so I took the bar loose and called it a day.  I went back a few days later, to find the tree on the ground and the bar laying neatly across the stump.

When sawing now, I always have two bars/chains and generally two saws.

[SwampDonkey]

We have a few large stands of white cedar in my area to. They got hit hard by loggers over the past 20 years telling landowners they should be cut because they aren't worth much. Well I never did see any of those guys ever try to plant anything to replace them cedar. Cedar is where it grows because nothing else can do as well there. Most of our local cedar stands are composed of 80 % or more white cedar when mature. Also the bed rock is calcareous on those cedar sites. Most everything else dies out. I have counted rings over 200 years of growth in those stands. Most other areas around the province has the cedar mixed in the forest and any of the wetlands in those regions are more bogs than anything. Our cedar stands aren't bogs and the biggest real bog around me might be an acre or two, not counting beaver flooding, which ain't bogs. It's nice walking in an old cedar stand in the winter, like parkland. In the summer it can get a little muddy. ;)

Doing a fine job there Kevin. ;D

[beenthere]

I have never had a tree fall where I didn't want it to.

I have, however, changed my mind about the location as the tree was falling....
:D

     ;D

[LOGDOG]

Kevin,

   Those are really nice cedars. What do cedar bolts and logs sell for up your way? When I lived in WI I had a heck of a time finding good white cedar that didn't have center rot. The cedar from MN and MI seemed to be larger and better quality.

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

I can't say, I'm not familiar with the market.
These logs are for myself and are probably costing way more than what I could buy them for less the fun I'm having.
No rot in anything I've cut so far.
I'll be back there tomorrow skidding them out, pictures to follow.

[SwampDonkey]

In the really old ones, we get pencil rot around here. But, 80 to 140 year old ones growing on good ground don't seem to have rot. Rail sized cedar always seems to be fine unless your down in the real low wet ground.  If cedar was fully utilized, that pencil rot wouldn't amount to beans. You could cut shingles and barrel staves around them places and have lots of recovered material to use. Everyone is looking for perfect, but don't want to pay for it.  I've seen some really nice cedar being moved off woodlots and most of the time the landowner was tickled pink if he only made the minimum off it and someone was glad to take it for far less than it's worth. : A good many times folks got stiffed by small operators that start up and fail just as quick. They always said around here that cedar mills were just about the riskiest venture to deal with in these parts.

[Cedarman]

There are only 3 parts to a cedar mill operation. Procurement, manufacturing, marketing and sales.  Seems to be plenty of cedar.  All kinds of equipment to make boards, cants, T&G etc.  Looks like the third part is the killer.

[LOGDOG]

Thanks Kevin.

   It's hard to put a price on "the process of doing it yourself" -especially if you're going to use it in a structure that you plan to occupy for a long time or even pass on. Love that cedar. I always enjoyed spending time in the cedar swamps up north whether I was in there cutting it or hunting. I had to think that with you falling those cedars in all that snow, I bet the deer will be in there thick browsing the tops. I remember how they used to literally strip a top bare overnight. It would look like the tree had been dead. If you had a game camera it would be interesting to have you put it up facing the tops and get pictures of what comes in. 

LOGDOG

[SwampDonkey]

There are only 3 parts to a cedar mill operation. Procurement, manufacturing, marketing and sales.  Seems to be plenty of cedar.  All kinds of equipment to make boards, cants, T&G etc.  Looks like the third part is the killer.

In this case a good many of them burnt to the ground. A good many of them you visit look like a fire trap about to ignite. Very messy operations, must be difficult to get rid of their waste or something. I don't think pulp mills will take it (sawdust) like they would from hardwood or spruce sawmills. Would be great for pellet mills though. Hardly any drying required.

[nas]

Was in some cedar myself this week.



A few logs



The post pile grows quickly



The woodlot after I was done.
Hopefully I will take some pics of the landing next week.  I think I will have to resort to a Quebecnewf sled and snowmobile to get the logs through the swamp.  It doesn't want to freeze solid enough to hold up my tractor.

Nick

[LOGDOG]

Nice photos nas. Some of those more crooked trees still standing would make good short stock for split shakes. Just cut the sweep out of them by blocking them down into short legths.

What kind/size tractor are you using?

LOGDOG

[nas]

I use a Kubota B7100 18HP in the woods while I am cutting, and an IH 464 60HP with a log trailer for forwarding.  The swamp will not even hold the Kubota.  It seems like there are springs under the ice, so the water is moving, and the ice will not get thick enough.  Now it looks like I will be using a Polaris Indy Trail 500 for forwarding.   At least it has heated handgrips 8)

Nick

[LOGDOG]

Well Nick, you certainly have some good toys - I mean "tools" to use getting those logs out. I've been meaning to look at those conversion kits that you can put on tractors - vehicles too for that matter - whereby you trade out the wheels for tracks. Each end of the axle gets it's own assembly of bogeys and slides. I've wondered if that would give a guy more floatation in an unfrozen swamp environment. Think? I've got a DK45C Kioti with cab, heat,air, loader,etc. that I'd probably convert over in the winter time if I lived up north. With a Farmi winch on the back it would be a tough little rig.

LOGDOG

[LOGDOG]

Something on the order of this is what I was thinking.

http://www.mattracks.com/html/track-tor-assist.htm

Wonder what the conversion cost would be?

LOGDOG

[nas]

I have seen that sort of thing but they are pricey.  I would sooner look at a Forcat 2000.

Nick

[LOGDOG]

What do those Forcats run Nick? $? I actually knew a guy that ran a similar rig to that, although it may have been a bombardier. He was a private landowner, elderly gentleman, and he'd cut maybe 40 cords of poplar a year in the winter and spring, and he used that machine to skid it out. Did it year after year. I think his cab was enclosed though.

LOGDOG

[nas]

Last year the 35HP diesel was about $40k new.  I don't know how good they would be for hardwood but it looks like the perfect machine for cut and skid small cedar lots like what I do.
So some day when I'm rich . . . .  :D :D :D :D

Nick

[Kevin]

Just cut the sweep out of them by blocking them down into short legths.
LOGDOG

That's what I'm doing to some of the cedar I'm cutting.
I'll get some nice wide boards off the shorter bottom sections, twelve footers out of the middle and 3 1/2 " x 3 1/2 " from the tops.
It all goes.
I would chew up my trails pretty well if I had to use a tractor, not to mention the trails aren't wide enough.

[nas]

I would chew up my trails pretty well if I had to use a tractor, not to mention the trails aren't wide enough.

My Kubota is 44" wide, and the skidding winch sure helps with those hangups.

[LOGDOG]

Nice Kevin.

   Do you use a froe to spilt those shakes or do you mill them on your mill? You know, I've wondered if anyone on the forum has ever made a "power froe" - essentially a hydraulic woodsplitter with a froe head on it. If you guys or anyone reading this knows of one of our members who has built one, I'd be interested in seeing it.

LOGDOG

[LOGDOG]

How'd you make out today Kevin? Any more cedars fall to your saw?

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

That's a narrow tractor nas.
LOGDOG , I was back in the cedars today skidding but not cutting.
I have all the logs out so I may get back to cutting next weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v4Yl_8kuhw

[LOGDOG]

Very nice Kevin. Great looking Argo too. Has that been a pretty good machine for you? Always wanted one. I see you have a helper there showing you the way back to the landing. Good looking dog. Looks happy. 

Thanks for the movie clip.  ;D

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

Thanks, I'm just waiting for one other to download and I'll pop it in here.
The argo has been good for the property I have.
I've used snow machines and atv's but the argo has been the best for what I'm using it for in that wet location.
It has the power to drag it just doesn't have the weight to carry the logs up the hill at the end of the trail.
Last year I had a friend with an atv and tracks bring them up, I may end up with a high line at some point.

[LOGDOG]

Kevin,

  You mean the ATV was able to pull loads out that the Argo wouldn't? I would have never guessed that. Do you recall what size the ATV was? When you say "high line" what do you mean? Like a yarding cable? Or? I think it was Farmi that I saw that had a yarding cable system used with their tractor mounted winch system. Have you seen it? Similar principal to what they do out west, just downsized to the landowners scale. Could be a solution for wet / warm years in the swamp or select cutting hardwood patches where you don't want too much traffic on the ground. I'll see if I can find the video and post it.

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

This is loading the logs in the arch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0WbFgeYwNs

The atv with tracks has more ground pressure.
The argo's weight is widely distributed and can't get the traction on the hill.
The high line will be the length of the hill between a tree at the bottom and a spar pole at the top.
I'll winch the logs up and stage them there.
I was bringing the mill down the hill but it's too wet and unstable in the Spring of the year.

[sprucebunny]

Thanks for the pictures and videos, Kevin. Looks like you are having some decent weather there  8)

[Magicman]

Wow, that is so neat.  That is so different from anything that I have ever seen.   Thanks for sharing.....

[Quebecnewf]

Kevin

Very good thread. I really like the videos. Just looking at that twitch of cedars on the arch it seems about the same amount I can foward up through the woods per trip with my snowmobile and sleighs. This varys of course with the place I am hauling outf and snow conditions etc. How long are your trails into the woods. Over the years I have had some long fowarding trails and some very srooked ones to. The longest I have had is maybe 1/2 mile . You really don't want to be in any deeper than that . It takes too long to cut a trail that long and too long to haul out through it.

Quebecnewf

[Kevin]

Thanks.
I have one main trail that would be about a half mile down to a lake then a couple of short trails off the main where I extract a few logs.
The main trail continues on across the lake for another 3/4 of a mile or so then runs into Lake Huron.
There are some ash on the far end and I may venture down there to hunt for one if the weather holds but I'm glad those logs I did get are out of the woods because mild temperatures are on the way.
I'll be looking at taking at least one fir at the end of this week.

[LOGDOG]

How many acres do you have there Kevin?

Looked for that yarding system with the Farmi but couldn't find it. Your highline idea sounds like a winner though. Low cost too.

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

178 acres with three small lakes.
Thanks for looking for that.
There are small yarders that can be made but I want to try my portable winch.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/deaton0601.html

[Jeff]

Kevin, what are this years logs destined to become?

[Kevin]

Jeff;
I wanted the wide boards for stairs and stringers, the tops will be for foundation blocks and everything in between will be 1" lumber, siding or wedges maybe shingles.

[Jeff]

Are you building a new camp?

[Kevin]

No new camp but I have a pole barn that needs a roof.
The stairs will be for my mom.
I want to try and get some fir out for the barn (pole shed) rafters but I only have weekends left and it's going up to 50 degrees in a week so this might be my last kick at the cat.

[LOGDOG]

178 acres with three small lakes.
Thanks for looking for that.
There are small yarders that can be made but I want to try my portable winch.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/deaton0601.html

Kevin,

   Your place sounds nice. Any fish in those three little lakes? Are they spring fed? Trout maybe? That yarder in Backwoods Home magazine is pretty neat. I enjoy that magazine.

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

No fish other than minnows.
Lots of wildlife though, deer,moose, coyote, bobcat,otter, mink, muskrat, turkeys, grouse and migratory birds.
I imagine if a fish did get in there the mink and otter would be all over it.

[SwampDonkey]

The brook trout in the little brooks around these farms got wiped out from the last logging contractor. He cut on 5 or 6 farms and ruined the brooks as far as I can tell. All the brook trout are gone and all we have is chub and leaches. We even got a new brook. :D Yup, believe it or not. There used to be cedar and black ash there in the same spot. Cut every stick in the wet places and on the brooks, no adherence to the clean water act at all. Created habitat for 25 acres of beaver flooding in one spot, and that has caused the main brook to go nearly dry in the summers now.

[Kevin]

The black ash on my property is in the yellow section, I'm now working in the blue section and the entire property is outlined in red.

[Magicman]

The white.  Snow, ice, or water?

[LOGDOG]

Yes.  ;D

[Kevin]

The white are the three small lakes, all ice right now.
The trail starts on the upper right corner of the property.

[ljmathias]

Uh,oh, Kevin- based on your red line, looks a property line dispute in the right side corner...   who gets those trees that look pretty ripe for cutting there?

Neat stuff- thanks for sharing.

Lj

[Kevin]

I have a couple of neighbours that clear cut a few years ago.
That's the high ground on the right, there's a ridge along the road then it drops off maybe twenty feet or so into swamp towards the west.
Very quiet area, I seldom see anyone on the main road.

[Magicman]

The signature map in your profile must not pinpoint your property.

Come to think about it, mine doesn't either.  I think that I should move mine to my tree farm instead of my home.

[OneWithWood]

The white are the three small lakes, all ice right now.
The trail starts on the upper right corner of the property.

I really like that little pond to the left.

[Kevin]

That's the same pond that Jeff is on or at least close to.

[Kevin]

Back in the cedars cutting and skidding spruce and cedar today.
This was the first spruce log to get skidded out of the bush.





This is the new skid trail I put in today to get at the spruce.

[Coon]

Looks like you've been a tad bit busy chewin' away at it.......  :D  I am still sittin' here chompin on the bit gettin ready to start in the bush....  :D What snow we had at Christmas is about half gone and dirty from the wind blowing.  Kinda waiting for it to snow. : Got a good whack of nice sized beaver killed aspen to pull out with the snowmobile and skidding arch. This stuff has some beautiful snow white wood inside and is way to nice to leave it alone or cut for firewood.  Kinda hoping that I can rid of this slop pail ring from my butt this week.  :D  Been sittin' on that poor ol' 5 gallon bucket out on the trout pond too much lately and gettin' only the odd one. ;D  Bet I got more hours of ice time in this winter than you have in the bush.  :D

[Magicman]

I'd love to be there helping/watching......

[SwampDonkey]

Sure is thick in that cedar, won't be able to separate the skid trail from the moose paths by spring. ;D Best time of the year for cedar woods.

[Kevin]

It's getting warm and I'll be lucky to get one or two more trips back there before it's over.
I was standing in water back there yesterday, very unusual for this time of year.
The good thing is, I'm just about done other than getting the logs up the hill.
Milling may come early this year.

[LOGDOG]

Kevin,

  Have you found any shed antlers back in your place?

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

No, the deer don't yard there.
They get lots of feed from the locals.

[Kevin]

Logs are getting staged today.

[SwampDonkey]

Sure looks like nice cedar.  ;D

[thecfarm]

I cut 4 ceders in the bog yesterday.Dragged them up by the house about 15 minutes by a tractor.Want them for a fence for the wife.I dropped them off by the brush pile,limbs and all.Went back to get some more firewood and there was 9 deer all ready eating the ceder limbs that broke off on the way up to the house. One really hated to leave.I got off the tractor and it stayed there and looked at me.It turned and walked away.Checked the ceder I bought up to the brush pile this morning and it was picked clean.What ceder I have is tall.My MIL wanted some boughs for an arrangement.Thought it would be easy to find some.Should of bought a ladder with me.  :D  

[SwampDonkey]

I'd like a set up like that someday to work in my softwood plantations. Most likely by then, the machine would be worth a lot more than the thinnings off 50 acres. :D

[Kevin]

Just a few left at the bottom of giv'r hell hill.
I should be done next weekend.
The portable winch comes in handy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4luqApbG4ag

[LOGDOG]

Those are really nice cedars Kevin. Really chunky. I would've paid good money for cedar logs like that when I was back north in WI. I hope you'll show us what you make out of them.

LOGDOG

[Kevin]

I'm out of the cedars but now I'm into the ash  8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1VFGfGWxsI

[fishpharmer]

Well done Kevin.  I would have been concerned about tree hitting the camera ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Is that black ash? What is the market?  Looks more upland though, now that I see the video preview. So, probably white eh?

[beenthere]

Good video Kevin. Good to see you back on center stage again.  ;D

And the vid next to it "Ash Tree removal part 3" was very interesting as well. Showed a climber sawing off pieces from the top down. Some interesting technique shown.

[Kevin]

That is black ash Donk.
I hope to turn that into furniture.
There was a large one I went in there for but found holes in the trunk and it looks like it's on its way out so I took this one instead.
I may go in for one more if I can get the time.

[thumper]

hey kevin,, where are you located? nice logs and dog..

[SwampDonkey]

Interesting, looked like it was a hardwood site. But now I remember the site on your photo which would suggest lowlands. 

Will be interested in seeing the furniture. Got a lot of drying to do. Black ash is quite wet stuff. ;)

[Kevin]

Thumper, I'm in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario with a bush lot on St. Josephs Island.
That ash is between a cedar swamp and a maple stand on the south side of the little lake on the north side of the property.

[WDH]

Kevin,

I always enjoy your videos!  Keep them coming.

[Kevin]

Thank you WDH, I'll try and get them when I can.

[OneWithWood]

Hi, Kevin.

It looks like you made a Humbolt notch and then came in directly from the back with your felling cut (no bore cut or holding wood).  Is that correct?

Did the tree set back a bit on the bar necessitating the wedge or do you insert a wedge as standard practice?

Good job dropping it where you wanted it.

[Kevin]

Yes, a humboldt.
It didn't want to pop out, I could see it was loose but it wouldn't let go by poking it with the bar nose so I treated it to the back of my axe.
No need for a bore as it was standing straight but the wedge is just added insurance to make it favour the lay.
Once the tree started going over I cut through most of the hinge to reduce pulling.
I'll use a wedge on anything that doesn't favour the lay.

Good job dropping it where you wanted it.

looks like I got lucky again. :D

Thanks for watching.

[Dale Hatfield]

Hey
Heres a tip put your ear muffs down before ya start the saw. That way you dont have to do the one handed saw dance

[Kevin]

I always start my saw with the muffs or at least one up so I can hear what the saw is doing when I try to start it.
If you can't hold your saw with one hand and drop your muffs with the other you probably shouldn't be using it in the first place.