Advanced Falling Cuts

[treeslayer2003]

meh, i quit makin real low stumps years ago. my buyer will just cut it off any way, he said there is almost always a defect that low. i am way more interested is getting them down where i want with no pull.

on the walnut, i would rather have the sap wood holding than any thing in the heart. on any timber really. i never seen one split in the sap wood.

[John Mc]

on the walnut, i would rather have the sap wood holding than any thing in the heart. on any timber really. i never seen one split in the sap wood.

Agreed

[RHP Logging]

I guess I'm more like Killamplane on this,but I do know what you're saying about cutting flush and being slower, and hard on chain, Bob. However, not to sound sappy,but trees are like people sometimes--many different types, circumstances, and other factors that influence each different example. That said, I don't always cut low--big, old red oak, hard maple or even hickory I come up to 8 to 10" depending on the tree. However, I cut a LOT of valuable walnut and white oak veneer, and many white oak and burr oak quarter saw-type big butt log trees that also bring in the 1.00 to 1.50/bd.ft range, and I get all I can out of the stump, even though it can be pain. if I can help anyone learn more about cutting veneer walnut I'd be happy to help any way I can. Great topic by guys who know what they're talking about; sure is interesting to learn more even when you're not in the woods!

I get what you are saying.  On the species you mentioned you may cut higher they  tend to have more root flare.  Maybe that's just coincidence along with lower dollar wood. White oak generally has little to none here.  Walnut isn't terrible either.  I'd like to see some pics of stumps if you'd be willing to share.  Like low cut high dollar stuff.  You run semi chisel then?

[RHP Logging]

I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft... another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps.

at college we were taught to cut as low as you can! over her in the uk you will fail your assessment if your cuts are higher than the toe on your boot!

The old timers around here have a saying:
    "An inch on the stump is worth a foot in the crown"

Cutting low isn't any slower if you have to go around and lower your high stumps afterwards. I would not accept high stumps on my property, nor would a lot of other landowners around here. A max stump height is not uncommon in timber contracts, and the max listed sure isn't 2 feet.

Not really sure where this 2ft stump is coming into play?  Maybe the camera angle exaggerated the stump height?  The camera was on the ground and pointed up some. I typically cut just above the root flare unless some other circumstance prevents. Stumps are less than 12" most times.  My skidder has a clearance of about 20" under the belly.  Sometimes the stumps get higher as you pass over em this time of year.  A 1 foot stump sure as hell doesn't slow me down when skidding.  Typically land 2700-4000 mbf per hour depending on the job.

I was also told by way of an old timer that a tree couldn't be swung more than 90 degrees just using holding wood. Old guys say a lot of stuff.  1" of wood on a big tree can be a couple of board feet.  1ft of the last log on a big tree can be a lot more than that especially if the stump helped you save that last log.

[SW Oh Logger]

reply to RHP---Bob, I'm not all that high-tech, LoL, however I do now have a "smart phone" so I'll get some pictures out as soon as I can, even though I regret not generally carrying my phone with me while cutting!! Always think later I should have taken more pictures after it's to late! Anyhow, no, I always run full chisel even though it can get boogered up; I use an axe down low sometimes to get clean cutting areas. Walnut is often a problem getting clean as you want it, but the money is there big time. It's not my money anymore,but they always let know what the big money trees bring--it's a little hard to believe!

[John Mc]

Not really sure where this 2ft stump is coming into play?  Maybe the camera angle exaggerated the stump height?

I was not referring to the stumps in your photo. Someone else made reference to a 1-2 ft stump.

Stumps are less than 12" most times.  My skidder has a clearance of about 20" under the belly.  Sometimes the stumps get higher as you pass over em this time of year.  A 1 foot stump sure as hell doesn't slow me down when skidding.

It's not the skidders, forwarding trailers, feller bunchers, & etc. getting over the stumps that is a concern. It's what's using the forest after the skidders leave. Many landowners here use their woods for recreation or for get their own firewood using a variety of vehicles not specifically designed for logging. A 12" stump is a problem for these activities. They are not going to be happy of they have to go back and trim down the stumps to get access - which is why some contracts specify a max stump height.

[John Mc]

I was also told by way of an old timer that a tree couldn't be swung more than 90 degrees just using holding wood. Old guys say a lot of stuff.  1" of wood on a big tree can be a couple of board feet.  1ft of the last log on a big tree can be a lot more than that especially if the stump helped you save that last log.

To make sure we are using the same terminology: by "holding wood", are you referring to the strap that is left on the back of the tree, more or less opposite the side with the notch? This is generally what's left if you do the GOL technique (open face, bore parallel to the face of the notch to establish the hinge then work your way backward, leaving some holding wood to hold a front leaner, or support a back leaner until you are ready to drive wedges and or drop the tree). I ask because some folks use "holding wood" to refer to leaving a thicker hinge on one side to try to steer the tree.

"Swing the tree" to me means changing the direction of fall during the fall. I generally don't do that, since it tends to require me to hang around the stump longer to make this happen. That's not something I want to do when thinning trees in a crowded woodlot. I'll generally just aim it in the direction I want it to go from the start, using wedges to drive it over if necessary.  I do want to try the "soft dutchman" to swing a tree during a fall. I've heard some people describe here, but it's not something I intend to try on my own. I'd like to get an in-person demonstration before I mess with it.

[RHP Logging]

I measured the tallest stump from the videos i posted because i got curious with all the stump height talk.  It was 8" on the uphill side and 14" on the downhill side. 

When i cut a job i typically push out existing trailsif ive thrown tops on them,  but if i'm cutting my way in then new trails are not my responsibilty to maintain.  I own a forwarder so i have to drive up to every tree.  My trails usually follow the trees then.  What the landowner does after that is his buisness.  Ive never had a complaint about stumps and stump heights are not an unsual requirement. 

I don't really bore cut anything so what i mean by holding wood is the corner of the hinge you use to pull the tree around when employing a dutchman to swing a tree.  Its funny you mention the "soft" dutchman. I made a video today using one.  Not really a practical cut in a production setting and in hardwood t h e circumstances have to be just right for it to work. I will try to get that posted this week.  The soft dutchman uses multiple kerfs to bring the tree around as opposed to a regular or single kerf dutchman.  I use the single kerf dutchman on a daily basis.

[John Mc]

Yeah, I just though the soft Dutchman sounded interesting. Neither that nor the regular Dutchman are something I envision using on a regular basis. It's not often I've felt the need to actually swing a tree. I tend to just aim the tree in the direction I want it to go, using wedges to drive it over if needed.

On the other hand, as my tag line says "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."  (i.e. if I knew how to do a Dutchman, other than from just reading about it, I might see more situations where it would be useful.)

[killamplanes]

Well heres a burr oak on a hillside not real steep but it did have a bit of butt flare just an average bore cut nothin special but it does have tall spikes but not gonna effect my skidder or bdf of log

 

[Peter Drouin]

I like trimed up logs for my mill.

[killamplanes]

U take care of trucking !!!!   

[so il logger]

Generally trim mine up as well. And cut fairly low


  

 

In blocking timber i tend to raise up on the stump


  

 

[Peter Drouin]

U take care of trucking !!!!   

My friends do. :D :D



  

  

  

 

[RHP Logging]

Well heres a burr oak on a hillside not real steep but it did have a bit of butt flare just an average bore cut nothin special but it does have tall spikes but not gonna effect my skidder or bdf of log

 

So you just leave the flare attached to the stump right?  What bar length are you running?  I will have to dig up some of my old low stump pics.  I think we might be playing a different game here.  Do you cut for a mill, yourself, or a logger?

[RHP Logging]

Generally trim mine up as well. And cut fairly low


  

 

In blocking timber i tend to raise up on the stump


  

 

I like the humboldt in there!   When I switched from cutting low stumps to where I'm at now I figured I was spending another 1-3 minutes on every tree when cutting low.  Even an extra minute at 30 trees per day is 30 minutes.  I typically cut 1500-1600bf per hour.  That was 700-800bf per day I was missing out on.  That's not peanuts. I cut for a mill and get paid in volume obviously. Nobody complained when I raised my stumps up.  You guys may cut for someone demanding those low stumps and I get that. 

[CCC4]

he is bucket cutting or crown cutting some call it. I have seen it done, usually hardcore Walnut guys taught by Swiss German Amish. I was team cutting with a guy a few years ago that did that cut nearly every tree...we were cutting nearly on the same postage stamp...it was scarey to be near him really. I understand the cut, seen it performed, but I won't be doing it anytime soon. Low momentum on the fall and I can't see where there is tons of control. Not knocking the cut but I would assume that cut has claimed several saws over the years.

[CCC4]

Nice cutting So Ill Logger  you show the difference in cutting veneer and cutting regular timber and altering your stump heights and cuts depending what you are in and who you are cutting for. !

[CCC4]

Bitzer, So Ill may have seen someone litter his woods with Humbolt's...no idea who that would have been  ??? !

[RHP Logging]

Bitzer, So Ill may have seen someone litter his woods with Humbolt's...no idea who that would have been  ??? !

Ha!  A tree just looks better coming off the slope on the stump!

I've seen the crown cut before in walnut. I agree that there isn't a lot of control there. 

[Plankton]

Not particularly advanced technique on this one but it was on a day that tested me as a faller yesterday. Strong wind in one direction. I had a lot of fun using the wind to set my lead, didn't use a wedge all day and had a lot of back leaners.

I had to stayed glued to the stump on each one to make sure it didn't pull up the trunk.

Humboldt with a snipe and chased full throttle down to the ground



I generally make my sight cut right above the flare easier and faster.

I don't ussually use anything more then working the hinge on the way down to swing soft wood which is what I mostly cut. I'm anxious to get into some hardwood soon so I can try out some of these cuts particularly sizwheel.

[SW Oh Logger]

No, I don't have any pictures up yet--may not even. However, I have cut and still do cut a lot of Walnut, never have crown cut,as you call it, have seen it in the woods, but not for a long time now here in S/W Ohio. I read the trees, move them to where I need them to be; make a small conventional or humbolt face cut, bore the heart out to either side for a triangular hinge depending on the head lean, size of tree, species, and value of timber--usually very low on prime timber,come up some depending on the terrain and value for lower grade. I am very focused on directional falling , safety, fiber pull--haven't lost a saw in over 40 yrs. of cutting. I will not say I haven't ever had a bar pinched . I do use wedges, but remember, trees are like people-- all different with many different circumstances influencing each one . So, I don't always cut just one way; but I generally cut very low if the value is there. Unlike Bob, and CCC4 I'm not a production cutter, certainly not now, and never have been much of one, but I get the job done right the first time if at all possible. A lot of my trees look like So Ill Logger's--nice work by the way!!

[RHP Logging]

Heres the soft dutchman video.  I kind of boogered up the second kerf so you can't see it as well, but oh well.  Keep an eye on the top kerf. You can watch it sit in the back, then to the side and then out to the front. The same with the second kerf and eventually the third.  Basically this cut is pre-sawing lean into a tree.  The wedge is in there for more of a bobber. You can see it stiffen up a touch when I nip the face.  AS I nipped the back she sat tight til she leaned out and started to come around to the front.  Like I said before, its not really practical in a production setting, but it sure is fun.  Initially the tree was leaned back towards the wedge. Top was also somewhat weighted to the back and to the side where it leans out to when it comes around.   Honestly the situation has to be *DanG near perfect for this to work in hardwood. Mostly vertical and limb balanced tree, no limbs from other trees to stop the movement, holding wood needs to hold. I didn't realize the cameras mic would have picked up the wind so bad.  You can kind of hear what I'm sayin.  That and I need to keep the camera straight next time. Feel free to drill me with questions. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qyVZdHZfT8&feature=youtu.be 

[RHP Logging]

No, I don't have any pictures up yet--may not even. However, I have cut and still do cut a lot of Walnut, never have crown cut,as you call it, have seen it in the woods, but not for a long time now here in S/W Ohio. I read the trees, move them to where I need them to be; make a small conventional or humbolt face cut, bore the heart out to either side for a triangular hinge depending on the head lean, size of tree, species, and value of timber--usually very low on prime timber,come up some depending on the terrain and value for lower grade. I am very focused on directional falling , safety, fiber pull--haven't lost a saw in over 40 yrs. of cutting. I will not say I haven't ever had a bar pinched . I do use wedges, but remember, trees are like people-- all different with many different circumstances influencing each one . So, I don't always cut just one way; but I generally cut very low if the value is there. Unlike Bob, and CCC4 I'm not a production cutter, certainly not now, and never have been much of one, but I get the job done right the first time if at all possible. A lot of my trees look like So Ill Logger's--nice work by the way!!

Come On!  Still like to see a stump of yers! Clint is the real production cutter here.  I only try to out produce myself!

[so il logger]

I haven't broke it down in hourly footage totals, but 12 to 15k bd ft by doyle scale per day. In good river bottom tall timber maybe as much as 20k bd ft. In thick underbrush hill timber which is almost always shorter stem timber then 8k ft would be a so so day. Bitzer, CCC4 was good enough to come up and cut for me while i was laid up. I was forced to drive the skidder and i hadn't done that for years. Around here nobody faces out of the stump, ccc4 cut different than me for sure. But he done a outstanding job, and was always ahead of the skidder. I have been slowly trying to adapt to the humboldt