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Started by xlogger, June 03, 2012, 07:49:48 AM

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opticsguy

First step, be nice and smile to everyone.  Communication is most important at this point.

Now you need to know:
What is the definition of a sawmill?
What is their definition of a sawmill?
If you have a standard 14" shop sized band saw on castors and cut wood for personal or business use, outside your workshop, would it be illegal? 
Upsize that to a 20" shop bandsaw on wheels, is this a saw mill?
Upsize again to 28" bandsaw again on wheels, is this a saw mill? 

Then it comes down to size, what makes a REAL saw mill?   Are stationary saw mills REAL and portable band mills are not?  Are we talking band mills, not saw mills?
So you will need to find out what 'they" define as a saw mill and what is recognized in the legal /court system as a saw mill.

One more thing to keep in mind.  A No Tresspassing Sign legally keeps anyone off your property including goverment agents without a court order/warrant. A legal counselor can help you on this. Spending a few bucks on leagl advise will be cheaper than the loss of seeling your saw.

One other item to try, is to invite your neighbor over for a BBQ and show off your little bandsaw and some wood you have a cut and give him a nice one with curly grain and nice color, communication and friendship is always the be step.
TK 1220 band mill,  1952 Ford F-2, 1925 Dodge touring, too many telescopes.

Jim_Rogers

Back in 95 shortly after I got my sawmill, I did some work for a fellow in the next town over.

He would buy 100 cords of firewood and have it delivered "tree length".

He would then cut it up and split it to sell firewood.

This was a back yard operation in a residential zone. But he had been doing it for many years. I don't know myself if he started it before zoning was adopted in his town or not.

So the story goes that he would "hire" outside portable sawmills, like me, to come to his property and saw "nice logs" that he pulled out of the firewood loads into boards to create hardwood flooring.

He build a "kiln" room in his barn and heated up the wood to dry it. And then send it out to be planned and tongue and grooved to make a finished product that he stored in another section of his barn. And sold this also.

He decided he didn't want to "hire" other sawmills any more and went out and bought his own sawmill. And he applied to the town for a building permit to put up another barn to store lumber in and have one gable end be a roof over his sawmill.

Well they said he was expanding a "non conforming use" in a "residential zone" and wouldn't allow it.

He took the town to court.

He got a lawyer and this guy did all kinds of research about what the agricultural laws were in the town, county, and state. To try and say he was agricultural and he didn't really need a building permit to operate.

He lost this case.

He took it to a higher court and lost again.

It seems that there was a "term" that was "lumbering" which was allowed under the agricultural scope. But that term "lumbering" was never defined in the law or law books. So it was up to the judge to decide what "lumbering" meant.

The judge ruled that he could continue to process firewood, as he may have been "grand fathered" in that respect. But he couldn't expand to include sawmilling on site.

After he lost, he pushed the state wide wood producers association to lobby the legislature to define "lumbering". Which did happen but it took years to get it done.

He sold his mill, that was being stored and operating in another town, further away from me. And when back to hiring outside portable mills to saw his wood, out of town, namely me, here at my site.

My point to this whole story is as others have stated, understand the laws. What is there and what isn't there. And try and show how you are complying with them, if you are.

Jim Rogers 
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

xlogger

Thanks all for all the advice. I'm not going to sell the mill for now till I try several things suggested on here first. As of now all I'm going to try to do is to keep the mill here to saw what lumber I need or want around my farm. I've got probably 4 th bd ft of pine I need to saw and maybe 100 cedars for posts and a few white oak logs for boards to replace my front fence that is wood. I'm going to fight it because of now I've lost anyways if I don't. I'm talking to find out who is more up to date with the local laws first. It's not like I run the mill alot I've only put 100 hours on it since I traded my other mill back last year in Dec. and now we are busy at work and it would get ran less. I just put in a 13 hour day at work and not thinking about looking at the mill this week.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Chuck White

It looks like you're set up "stationary".

If so, and it's a noise issue, you might think about going electric!

Just a thought.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

xlogger

I don't have 3 phase out there or close and I do want to be able to move the mill for portable jobs one day.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

tractormanNwv

I don't know what HP your mill is, but if push comes to a shove....maybe you should think about buying a "phase converter" and putting a 15-25 HP electric motor on it, either way don't give up yet, theres more ways than one to kill a cat than just the broad side of a board...

Jim

Dave VH

can you set up a portable business from a p.o. box with your mill, and just hire yourself.  what's the difference to hire yourself, or someone else to come saw?  It is legal everywhere to have an outside company com in and do work on your property.  You could hire a bulldozer to reshape your fenceline, what's the difference?  As long as you occasionally mill offsite also, then you can't be accused of being in a fixed location.

just a thought
I cut it twice and it's still too short

xlogger

I started yesterday making some phone calls for some more legal advise, waiting on return calls now. They are making so much more over this thing than it really is. ricky
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

woodyone.john

in a similar vein to many others, my dad flew bombers in the raf over germany. the citation on his halifax was  nil illegitimus carborundumii, his version of dont let the barstads grind you down. he came home after the war and thats how i got born. keep on keeping on sport! cheers john
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

xlogger

I finally got an email from the county after I worried them alot about being unfair. They told me if I only saw for myself here and did not advertise I could use the mill here on my farm. Do you think I should move the mill within 100 ft of his house, my land gets that close if I'd like to do it? :D
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Magicman

That county response sounds reasonable under the circumstances.  It's certainly better than the alternative.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

clww

I'd make a copy of the reply they sent to show your neighbor the next time he creates a ruckus. As for the mill, I'd leave it where it sits.
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

rmack

Quote from: xlogger on June 23, 2012, 07:16:16 AM
I finally got an email from the county after I worried them alot about being unfair. They told me if I only saw for myself here and did not advertise I could use the mill here on my farm. Do you think I should move the mill within 100 ft of his house, my land gets that close if I'd like to do it? :D

I don't think it's ever a good idea to be seen as escalating the confrontation.

Surely, there is a temptation to rub the neighbours nose in it, but you may regret that at some point.

the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

Mooseherder

Surely he crossed the line of messing with a man's way of making a living.
If he moved against you're right to take care of you're family again he would need some verbal counseling. ;D
I'm glad you got some reprieve.  What did you say to them?
It may be helpful for the next guy.

xlogger

I had a man from the soil and water division come out that knows about sawmills just to see how little I was. He agree with me and help me, most of what I did was just to keep calling and invite anyone to come out and look. Now as of today I got another letter from the environment air quatily people that he call them last week because I burnt a brush pile on the back of my property about the size of a small truck (with a burning permit). This guy is really trying me. Now I have to call them next week.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

WH_Conley

You didn't burn brush to dispose of it. You cooked a hot dog on it.
Bill

ladylake

 
  I'd put the mill back where you had it in the first place, no need to be nice to your nieghbor after what he's done.    Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

xlogger

Howey Steve, yes the mill is going back to where I started maybe even closer to his house. I was in compliance with the air people as far as I can tell by looking at the rules on burning. The guy that sold the house to him called and said he's worried him alot since he sold him the house and he thinks the man is a little off. Just my luck getting him move in near me. Ricky
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

thecfarm

That is some great news.  ;D  I have a feeling every time you do something he will be on the phone. Some people are like that. They just like to complain and try to show how smart they are.  ::)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

MrPete

Just keep on doing what your doing and make sure the government entities know what you are doing.  Every time your neighbor complains it will just be another feather in your hat and the local authorities will start watching him instead of you.

rmack

 "Howey, Steve, yes the mill is going back to where I started maybe even closer to his house."

So, you decided to do your neighbour a favor after all...

And , someday, when the sheriff asks why you moved the mill closer to the neighbours house, other than to provoke a confrontation..... what will you say?

I have a neighbour who has been trying to run me off my property since the day I moved in.... claims the property was "promised" to him.

"Smooth moves" include backfilling the flood plain on his side of the creek, forcing it over into my side.... lighting numerous brush fires that have done a lot of damage on my property, and doing everything he can to have various levels of government shut down my efforts at developing my land.

This has been going on for close to 4 years.

Trust me, you don't want to be part of the problem.

Moving the mill closer to his house will cost you credibility that will probably end up being a very valuable asset at some point.

You may think it's over and you have won...  I wouldn't count on it.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

SPD748

I agree with previous posts... Don't make yourself a target. By all means, keep on trying to earn a living but do just that, earn a living. Don't add to or irritate the suituation. As a law enforcement officer I can tell you that many times, the complainant makes themselves the problem by continually pointing out what they perceive to be the "transgressions" of others. I'm not saying you have to be overly nice or even make any attempt to accommodate your neighbor. The best policy is avoidance. Don't put yourself into a situation where  he could allege that you've committed some criminal act against him. If he approaches you, call the police. I say again, do not confront him. This very situation has led to many an arrest based on the accusations of others. I can not tell you how many times I've seen this.   

In the end, run your mill. Be safe and have fun. Enjoy the success of your business.

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

levans

maybe you could have the government entities send him a letter to the effect that in their eyes the situation has been resolved, any more complaints will simply be a waste of his and their time. 

rockman

Quote from: levans on June 24, 2012, 12:04:15 PM
maybe you could have the government entities send him a letter to the effect that in their eyes the situation has been resolved, any more complaints will simply be a waste of his and their time.

I'm no lawyer, but, this post made me wonder at what point does this guys complaints become Harassment?

Kevin
kioti ck-20 loader backhoe, box blade, disk, log arch
Husqvarna 455 rancher
Lincoln Ranger 10,000 welder

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