Poconos - Sawmills

[GlennCz]

I'm in the Poconos in NE Penna, working with a logger to timber my land.  We just started.  We logged 9 years ago and are having a go at it again.  In 2005 we took the timber to 3 different local sawmills, and took the better trees to a smaller place that specialized in the nice cherries, and then near the end we found a guy who came on site, graded the logs, and off they went, somewhere.  Sadly, the independent guy and the smaller specialty place are no longer in business, and they gave us the best prices on our better pieces.  Is there a directory or something of where I could find maybe an independent guy or someone who specializes in the better, bigger cherries? 

[ga jones]

Yes, there are veneer buyers in the area. I'm surprised your logger doesn't know them.

[GlennCz]

Does the timber have to be graded veneer for a veneer buyer to take it?
If my logger doesn't know of these buyers, how would I find them?

[GlennCz]

When we logged in 05 we took out 42 loads of timber.  I realize there are lots of unknowns in this business for someone like me.  I think we did did a good job selecting trees in 05 and it is possible there is a similar amt of board feet to take out now, except they are bigger trees.  Last time I tried to select the seconds to let the good ones grow.  One our first load a few days ago our ave size was 88ft/log compared to 62ft/log in 05.

I have all the numbers from my first go around.  The three sawmills gave me fairly similar averages for each species (cherry & soft maple mostly), but the two specialty cherry buyers gave me higher prices for the better cherries we took there.  Very few of the 2400 logs I sold made veneer quality, but for those that did I got multiple dollars per foot.  Also, it doesn't really look like the veneer buyers necessarily gave me much better prices on the logs that weren't graded veneer. 

One more point.  Since 2005, #1-#3 cherry prices have increased, but Prime X & Prime have decreased according to the price sheet.  Prime X is down 40% compared to 2005 on the biggest mill price sheet!

My logger says I waited too long on many of these trees.  It's certainly possible.  He seems to know what a veneer log looks like, but of course the grader has the final say, take it AND leave it!!!

I'm in a situation.  I know I could go with a forester and bid it out.  He gets 15%.  Then the bid winner gets a certain %.  But he is bidding "on the stump".  He has to leave lots of room for "slippage" - the unknowns - which are everywhere.  Cut down a tree and there is the rot etc.  So let's say that slippage is 20%.  We are left with 65% for me, and that's the same as I'm getting on my non-veneer cherry.  And I have total control, instead of a gang running around land, doing who knows what and even possibly sneaking a few load out.  I'm sure it does and can happen.  Not only do I have total control (which may be my downfall!<g>), I'm having tons of good fun working on this project.  I trust the "have a sawmill do it" method the least.

Also, now that I'm going on this, I'm very thankful this logger showed up a few weeks ago and said "it is time to get this done".  It certainly is.  After this go around, after mother nature takes over, I know I'll be at it again > 5 years from now. 

It's kind of investing in the stock market in the 90's or running a business.  Even if you are doing pretty good, you always know you can do better.  But can you?  Often what seems like a better way, has all kinds of hidden troubles and costs.  Selling timber is capitalism at its' finest! & worst!

One more thing.  I live on this property and hate to see the big mess being made.  But after having the firewood cutters in, the roads stones and regraded, you could hardly tell there was a logging job done 9 years ago. 

[chester_tree _farmah]

Google for veneer buyers in pa and adjoining states.

What are you doing yourself?  Managing? Just curious. It sounds like you and your logger have a good relationship and you are lucky. He wouldn't be back if you were a pain in the butt and not taking the time to learn. :-)

What are fire wood cutters? u let them take the scraps and tops for free.

As far as your woods go a little mess, as in leaving some of the tops is better for your woods. Just request the logger cut the tops up well so they lay closer to the ground. Next year's snow will than flatten it out nice.

[GlennCz]

>What are you doing yourself?  Managing? Just curious. It sounds like you and your logger have a good relationship and you are lucky. He wouldn't be back if you were a pain in the butt and not taking the time to learn. :-)

My logger and I dicker over every tree before we mark them, marking one area at a time.  That has worked very well.  Also, we discuss where to take the loads.  (although we just got started with one load out) We have one huge mill just 2 miles from the job, which will probably get most of it.  Then we have another place about 20-25 miles away and more further out.  Trucking and loggers time is a factor.  Of course he goes with every load, and I was at a bunch of the grading/pricings last time and the first one last week.  I see what goes on.  I have the breakdown of $/ft for all our 05 loads and it came out fairly similar for the 3 mills we took most of it. 

I'm catching on better this time to the grades, and the whole process, but a lot of it is subtle for an amateur.  My logger is experienced, and is constantly teaching me, of course that often means cutting the mature trees, but I do think he has my best interests at heart.  (mostly).  We left a lot of nice trees the first go around, and now most of them are coming out to leave room for the smalls/mediums.  I can see the red rot and shake and all the other stuff,  squinched tops, holes, woodpeckers, sap, bugs, all of it a loggers friend! My logger likes having me around, it's makes it real hard to think of looking elsewhere cause i like dealing with him.  And if I am getting shorted a bit by not doing it some other way,  the good fun is worth it.  I do work full time, but have some time off at lunch.  We are spending a lot of time together now, as it gets going.  He'll be over tomorrow (Sunday) spreading some stone on my roads to keep the damage down.

>What are fire wood cutters? u let them take the scraps and tops for free.

Yes.  Last time I put a Free Add in the paper and that cleaned much of it up, then I had a few guys and myself gong at it slowly.  In most places, you can hardly tell it was logged 9 yrs ago. 
Logger said there is a market for truckloads of firewood.  But it all has to be hauled out to the landing.  Not sure if it would be worth the trouble.  Will worry about that later. 

>As far as your woods go a little mess, as in leaving some of the tops is better for your woods. Just request the logger cut the tops up well so they lay closer to the ground. Next year's snow will than flatten it out nice.

Yes and no.  It part of the process, but it is only so reasonable to be spending time cutting up tops when there is so much else to get done, plus every minute on a saw is dangerous to a degree. (my mom used to work in WorkComp and constantly reminds me that logging was in the highest injury$$ category).   I still have some good firewood laying 9 yr later, esp the cherry, but the maple that is left is pretty much gone after this winter.  I'm grabbing all the pieces that don't need sawing for myself. 

We do have a veneer option, but only one, and i would like a couple more.  Like I said sadly we had a small mill close by that specialized in the better grades and we took our best logs there and got multiple $/foot on some, but they are closed.  Maybe they paid too much!!!  And we had an independent who graded at the site, but he's gone to the 9-5 501K world!  My feeling is why take a possible veneer log to the mill to get $2 when he is just going to sell it for $4, which I might get myself.  But again, who knows how many of those we will get. 

When I google veneer buyers Pennsylvania, I only come up with Western Pa hits, which is quite a distance.  Trucking and distance is always a factor. 

One interesting thing.  I toured the local mill, big operation, and they told me that all the logs now go to China, made into furniture, and back to the US again.  When I built my house in 2000, my wife and I went on a shopping spree to NC to furnish the place.  The mill guy told me that now(since about the 2008 recession) they don't make furniture in NC, it's just warehouses of furniture from our wood, shipped back from China.