Controlled Burn - Pic Intensive Post!!

[Texas Ranger]

That's a gooden, whats the site index on the tract?

[WDH]

On the poorer part of the stand, it is about site 70 (base age 25 years) and on the better part of the stand it is site 80 (base age 25 years).    These are estimates from my observations.  The soil was ripped to 24 inches before planting, and the site is an old field. 

I am not sure what the site index would be on a base age 50, since I have not looked it up on the site index curves to see.  When I was in school several hundred eons ago, a site 80 on a base age 50 years was considered a pretty decent site for natural pine in these parts.  Now, we can get that in half the time with good site prep, improved seedlings, brush control, and fertilizer.  I am not saying that this was a site 80 base age 50 years, I think this site would be better than that for natural pine, maybe a site 90.  In any event, the growth has exceeded my expectations.  I also have a pet peeve that most people in these parts significantly under-thin when they do the first thinning, and they end up growing more pulpwood than anything else.  This stand is 80% or better chip-n-saw at age 20, and it is not junky stuff either.  Of course the pruning makes it look real nice.

[tonich]

Tonich,

On this site, we consider sweetgum a weed.  This is an upland site better suited to pine.  The sweetgum, if left here, would not make a high grade tree.  However, on a good bottomland hardwood site, sweetgum can make a very high quality sawlog. 

I plan to thin these stands again in about 2 to 3 years.  I prefer herbaceous understory because if is better for wildlife food.  Sweetgum provides no valuable wildlife food.   When the 2nd thinning is done, that will open up the canopy so that more light will reach the forest floor.  I would rather that light produce herbaceous vegetation than more sweetgum!

That sounds reasonable. Thanks for sharing it.

The afterburn plantation looks ideal. The terrain looks pretty much flat from my point of view. I think I could rush, managing these woodlots.  8) 8)
And I like this term: “steam management”. ;D (I do hope you don’t have very bad neighbors).

You’re doing a great job. Keep on the good work, since we expect sharing with us the annual cut, sawn lumber and made of it furniture.

[SwampDonkey]

That's really amazing growth. Even a bit faster than large tooth aspen, which I find is fast growing. I see some 4" LT aspen in 12 years growth.

[WDH]

I think that steam management is a more descriptive term than smoke management when dealing with neighbors!  Good add, tonich.  One of my stands was close to a neighbor that is downwind of the prevaling wind, so I stopped by to alert them of the upcoming burn.  A woman answered the door, and I noticed that she was connected to an oxygen tube.  When I told her about my plans, she asked, "Am I going to be able to breathe?".   That had me worried for sure.  Then yesterday morning I saw that we would have a rare south wind which would carry the smoke away from this home.  To say least, I jumped on the opportunity, and not nary a wisp of smoke found its way to that neighbor.  That was some real serendipity  :D.

Tonich,  the terrain is much flatter than what you showed in the logging pics on another one of your posts.  That sure makes it easier to manage. 

Loblolly is by far the fastest growing of the 4 major southern pine species (Loblolly, Slash, Shortleaf, and Longleaf).  That is why the forest industry here almost exclusively plants loblolly in the South.

[tonich]

I think that steam management is a more descriptive term than smoke management when dealing with neighbors!  Good add, tonich. 

Ops!
My bad!
I have to watch my writings!   :  :P


Do you guys have a boner thread here?
If no, this is a good reason to start one.
          

[WDH]

Hold on, Tonich.  I thought your concept of steam management was very appropriate (steam as in a neighbor having a bad temperment).  I thought that you were elegantly insightful  :.

I am dissappointed now that it was a typing mistake.  You should not have confessed ;).

[tonich]

Hold on, Tonich.  I thought your concept of steam management was very appropriate (steam as in a neighbor having a bad temperment).  I thought that you were elegantly insightful  :.

I am dissappointed now that it was a typing mistake.  You should not have confessed ;).

Unfortunately, my English is not in that great shape.
I’ve just consulted my dictionary and one of the last meanings was “get angry, lose o.'s temper, fly into a passion/a temper, flare up”.

But that’s OK! I’m fully enjoying my mistake. If you say this is a brand-new, unknown term, then I do insist for my 2 minutes glory in the forum. So where’s the boner thread!?

[Texas Ranger]

Tonich, is this bunch it is best to accept what they offer, they will get even later on. :

[stonebroke]

Have you guys ever thought of using cows to control hardwood brush.

Stonebroke

[Tom]

Scrub Cows have been used prolifically here in the south.  They do a fair job, but there are drawbacks.  To get the cows to browse, you have to keep a less than pristine pasture.  Cows will eat the leaves of some trees but most will do it only if grazing isn't available.  Cows in the woods also compacts the soil and that is detrimental to forests destined for harvest.  Trees tend to suffer from root diseases when cattle are present.

Scrubs are still used, especially since fire is so politically incorrect, but the job they do is nowhere as effective as fire or herbicide.

[Riles]

There's some new research that suggests compaction in pine plantations is beneficial. The logic here is that the shallower roots of the competition are more affected by compaction than the deeper roots of the pines. They actually used a steam roller in the site prep. They had mixed results, so this is a controversial topic.

[stonebroke]

Has anyone ever tried intensive grazing. This would alleviate the concerns about compaction and also do a better job.

Stonebroke

[tonich]

In my country there are a lot of animals, out for grazing.
Definitely, goats are “the devils” among them.
Those animals graze everything they can reach, starting from the top to the bottom.
They even do debark some higher trees. So, nothing is left behind them.

Goats will probably enjoy very much the broadleaf underwood, WDH described…
…While WDH could start Roquefort cheese production soon…  ;D :D

[Tom]

It may be that the thoughts on running herds in plantations will change.  But, keep in mind that there is a difference in the terminologies Grazing and Browsing.  It will help to keep the conversations better understood.

Cows will browse.  You can look at the even bottoms of the trees around here and see that.   They well even come running if you prune an oak.  But most of the oaks growing in a pasture don't get very large, as they would in a Forest setting.  Then, I've seen some mighty oaks in an Urban setting with sidewalks and paved streets on each side.   I don't know the answer.

[WDH]

From my studies in graduate school in Forest Soils in the old days, compaction is never good under any circumsances.  The natural soil is not compacted.  So if compaction affects shallowed rooted species that compete with the crop trees to a greater detriment, it is still not good for the whole system.  Soils should be friable, promoting good water absorption.  Compaction has long term deleterious effects for all species.

[stonebroke]

You could control any compaction by timing grazing to periods when it would not occur. I would think that the forest would benefit more from the increased organic matter with cows rather than burning. Also the nutrients would be able to cycle in a better more controlled manner.


Stonebroke

[WDH]

If you are going to time your grazing, you better have a good bit more land.  Cows have to eat all the time.  Land is not free (ask me, I know).  You cannot raise quality cows in a plantation management regime.  It is just not practical; there is not enough nutrition.  Even with hardwood, the nutrition is not of a suitable quality for cows.  We had cows all the time when I was growing up.  They need quality feed to prosper.  We had to plant grain in open Agricultural fields to sustain them thru the winter.  Any woodlands grazing is just icing on the cake, not the main objective.  It will not hold them for the long term unless you have thousands of acres..................

[DanG]

Goats do a nice job of keeping the woods clean, but the cost of maintaining fences and keeping water to them, along with the time it takes to take care of them would negate any benefit, imho.  Cattle just won't work in a SYP plantation, period.

[tonich]

Goats do a nice job of keeping the woods clean, but the cost of maintaining fences and keeping water to them, along with the time it takes to take care of them would negate any benefit, imho.  Cattle just won't work in a SYP plantation, period.

Ditto,
Cows won’t do the job, since they browse barely. If you need a real destructor for those aggressive hardwood brush, goats is the way to go.
But I have to agree with WDH - controlled grazing needs much more land and much more time. Somehow it defines and developes a brand new economic farm activity.


PS. WDH, with this burn you start a secondary succession. Since you say in you profile, you have enough passion, this is a good chance to start examining it, according to your botany interests. You could notice the change of herbaceous vegetation, starting from different euthrophyte grasses for the firs few years, via biennial plants late on and get to perennial bushes and understory.

[SwampDonkey]

One of the biggest culprits of the understory brush is birds sacking seed and fruit and dropping it. A bird is quite wasteful and probably looses more seed than he eats. Just watch around the bird feeder. In the old orchard here it was overtaken by mountain ash, pin cherry, and raspberry. All sacked in by birds as excrement or fallen from their beaks. I even see a crazy ruffed grouse around here once in awhile and I'm a long way from the woods. That old orchard used to be home to 4 or 5 grouse in the fall and winter. It was a thicket and lots of fruit on the bushes and apple trees.

[Blue Duck]

Goats do a nice job of keeping the woods clean, but the cost of maintaining fences and keeping water to them, along with the time it takes to take care of them would negate any benefit, imho.  Cattle just won't work in a SYP plantation, period.

I don't know about that.  The prices of goats down here in my little part of the world is getting pretty high.  About $2.00 a lbs on the hoof right now.  If a man has the means to be in the goat business it's a worth while hobby farm investment.  Especially if he had 10 year old planted pines he could fence in and have them keep the briars and the kudzu down.

[SwampDonkey]

Don't tell me no more about these 'goat farms'. I seen enough around here. And that's right, hobby farming comes to mind.  : I'll keep my opinions to myself.  ;)

[Tom]

The good thing about livestock is that you can start with two.  .....one if you're lucky and know someone who can share. :D

[DanG]

All this talk of alternative methods is great.  But, with a full time job, a sawmill, land to maintain, and a family, I'll bet a weekend of burning once in a while, fits into WDH's schedule better than a herd of goats. : :D