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Where do you "draw the line" on quartersawn vs rift sawn?

Started by RussMaGuss, April 02, 2021, 03:01:38 PM

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RussMaGuss

I'm processing a load of white oak and I have mostly quartersawn and riftsawn and am wondering if any of you have made a jig of sorts maybe out of plexiglass and some markings from a protractor to help quickly identify QS vs rift. Where do you guys "draw the line" on what is  QS vs rift? Since some wider boards may sway between 50-70 degrees depending on the cut, do you simply downgrade that whole board to being QS? 

metalspinner

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Larry

The NHLA rule book defines quartersawn.  My book is old and may be out of date plus the definition is a little tricky.  I don't want to publish false info.  Maybe we can get Gene Wengert to explain.  @GeneWengert-WoodDoc
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

DonW

In my perspective, more wood user 'n wood sawyer, if the rings at the end grain are not vertical it simply is not quartered. Mostly because of the appearance since the Rays diminish radically even with a degree or two.

And with more they are largely gone or not interesting anymore. Structurally there could be more allowance from the vertical deviation. 
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

Fern Wood

Even though it can technically be classified as quartersawn if it isn't showing fleck I call it rift. 

scsmith42

There is much mis or contradicting information on the internet and even amongst reputable lumber dealers and manufacturers regarding what constitutes quarter and rift sawn lumber.

Part of the reason why is that there are several different industry recognized organizations that provide information about quarter and rift sawn lumber. In the US, these include the USDA Forestry Products Lab (FPL), the National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA), the National Hardwood Flooring Manufacturers Association (NHFMA), and the Architectural Woodworking Institute (AWI). In Canada, the Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Association of Canada (AWMAC) and Woodwork Institute (WI) are recognized as the primary lumber standards body.

All of these organizations agree that quartersawn lumber is determined by the angle that the annular growth rings intersect the face of the board. Unfortunately, they don't all agree on exactly what that angle is. Some define it as between 60 - 90 degrees, others define it as between 75 - 90 degrees, and still others define it as 45 - 90 degrees.

In Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood", he defines quartersawn lumber as that where the growth rings form angles of anywhere from 45 degrees to 90 degrees with the surface, with "rift grain" indicating surfaces intermediate between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Hoadley also refers to rift sawn lumber as "bastard grain" too. Unfortunately, Hoadley does not provide references to any FLP, NHLA or AWI standards in his book.

The current industry recognized definition of quarter and rift sawn lumber recognized by architects and professional cabinet shops nationwide is published jointly by the AWI in the US and by the AWMAC and WI in Canada. AWI defines quartersawn lumber as having annual growth ring orientation between 60 - 90 degrees relative to the face of the board. AWI defines rift sawn lumber as measured by annular growth ring orientation between 30 - 60 degrees to the face of the board, with 45 degrees being "optimum" (page 449, Appendix B, section 3 Lumber of the 2009 1st edition of Architectural Woodwork Standards with drawing from same posted above).

Currently, most of the lumber manufacturing industry adheres to the AWI standard regarding rift and quarter sawn lumber; however there are still some variances so it is good to ask questions and verify that the definition that you are using is the same definition as the lumber seller.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Larry

Scott, I agree with your definition, but the way I understand it the angles are only valid to define quarter sawn lumber.  When figure is required such as white oak, the rules change.

In my NHLA rule book it very clearly states in the section on quarter sawn red oak, white oak, and locust that "90% of one face of the required cutting area in the aggregate shall show figure".  Nothing about the angles although that is covered in another section.

Again my rule book is older and I may not understand it completely.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Indeed, the correct definition within the industry is whether you can see the ray flack clearly.  This has been for over a century, with the NHLA taking the lead on this.  Clearly, the definition as nothing to do with angles in the species where we have the ray fleck.  Larry in the previous posting gives the exact quote.

The problem or confusion originated when the US Forest Products Lab decided that lumber was either quartersawn or flatsawn.  They ignored riftsawno, including riftsawn within the  quartersawn definition.  

So, much of their work on shrinkage has either tangential or radial aspects, meaning zero degrees or ninety degree ring angle. Obviously, such perfect pieces do not exist in reality. It    They calculate movement for flatsawn using the tangential number, which over-estimates movement.  Likewise, for all quartersawn lumber, they use the radial number which underestimates for quartersawn pieces. (They also ignore hysteresis effect in their formulas, but that is another topic.)

Discussion in technical papers about drying lumber included only flatsawn and quartersawn pieces, with emphasis on perfectly quartersawn by measuring the ring angle, and similarly for flatsawn, which meant lumber away from the center from large logs.  The dividing line was 45 degrees.  Of course, what do you do with a piece that has both grain patterns in it.  Again, the NHLA in their wisdom and understanding about reality in the sawmill, sets percentage of the surface that must show fleck (in species with fleck) as the determination about when lumber can be called quartersawn.

Bottom line is that reality and technical information have a gap that is not well bridged.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

scsmith42

Gene, thanks for the clarification.

The AWI specs don't address ray fleck at all.  From your experience, which industries follow NHLA versus the AWI?
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

Our woodworkers will only purchase true quarter sawn wood if it shows fleck on one side.  No fleck, no sale.  Its a "yes/no" scenario.

For some other wood, I quartersaw for the purposes of producing very flat boards and am not interested in fleck, such as cherry and walnut.  For these, I don't call them quartersawn for selling purposes, simply follow the convention of exotic wood and pine flooring sawyers, and and call it "vertical grain."  

Since quartersawn and rift sawn wood has a very different face pattern than flat sawn wood, its easy to spot, whether it has fleck or not.



 

This is quarter and rift "speed sawn" cherry, and the vertical grain is easily seen.  For this type of sawing, I don't center the pith other than using my eyeball, don't octagon, don't do much of any of the conventional formal quartersawing techniques, just use a hodgepodge of techniques to get through it as quickly as possible with a minimum of waste.  Techniques I've learned form picking the brains of  @WDH  @Southside @customsawyer  and others.  It's actually pretty fast, lends itself to rapid sapwood removal, (no edging) and will produce very flat boards for normally highly stressed wood.  You can actually see some edge crook or curve on some of the boards already, caused by stress, which is fine, because I'd rather have movement in that plane, rather than in the bow plane, for furniture grade wood.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The definition and the expectation and the everyday understanding of quartersawn within the industry is based on the visual perception when looking at the face of the lumber or pieces made from the lumber.  As such, especially with species that have ray fleck, the ultimate determination of rift, flat or quarter does not use grain angle measurement, per se.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

firefighter ontheside

 @YellowHammer I noticed on quarter sawn that I have done it tends to curve, but stay flat.  Is that a common thing for quarter sawn?   I imagine myself selling my quarter sawn and rift sawn lumber together and letting people pick out what they want and decide for themselves if it is q sawn or not based on fleck, at least for oak.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

YellowHammer

Yes, definitely, the quartersawn wood will saw and dry much flatter, and in higher percentages, board to board, than flat sawn wood of stressed species.  In most cases, a bowed board off the mill will be a bowed board out of the kiln.  That's why most exotic species are quarter or rift sawn, as they are generally highly stressed. However, since true quartersawing techniques are more time consuming, including my RRQS, than flatsawing, I have tried to become adept at quartersawing on the fly, depending on how the log requires.  

For furniture makers, flat wood is paramount, bowed wood is unsellable.  So for example, for the cherry in the picture, if I make a few flatsawn cuts and the boards come off flat, I'll keep flatsawing.  How do I know it's flat?  I can either see the board jack up when I'm sawing, or I'll sight down the board if I'm suspicious of bow.  We are talking 1/8" or less, or basically not visible to my eye when sighting down the edge.  I may try to rotate out of the flatsawn stress, or by then I know the log, and will generally just switch to sawing the rest of the board as quarter or rift sawn.  I let the log tell me what is required, and since I'm trying to get some board footage produced, I'm not playing with the log, just burning through it as fast as possible while getting super flat boards off the mill.

Other than knots, bowed boards are the biggest defect to a woodworker and although we can fix them after kiln drying with our equipment, it's best to have flat boards come off the mill in the first place.        
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

alan gage

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on April 06, 2021, 08:53:38 AMI imagine myself selling my quarter sawn and rift sawn lumber together and letting people pick out what they want and decide for themselves if it is q sawn or not based on fleck, at least for oak.


Personally I'd separate them out. If you ask quarter sawn prices everyone will pick through and take the figured stuff, leaving you with a stack of over priced rift sawn boards.

If you price them lower, say somewhere between rift and quarter sawn, everyone will pick through and take all the figured stuff, leaving you with a stack of over priced rift sawn boards.

Might as well separate and price accordingly. Some people (like me if I bought lumber) would happily pay more for rift over flat sawn oak but don't always care for the heavy figure of true quarter sawn oak.

Alan

Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Larry

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on April 06, 2021, 08:53:38 AM
I noticed on quarter sawn that I have done it tends to curve, but stay flat.  Is that a common thing for quarter sawn?
Quarter sawn likes to crook because one edge has juvenile wood which shrinks more in length than the other edge.  I think if I leave the pith in the center cut boards and remove after drying I get less crook.  I seldom do it this way though.

Bow is usually not much of a problem with my quarter sawed stuff.

Quarter sawn boards with good figure on the whole board command a premium price.  I would never ever sell mixed with rift sawn.

I do sometimes sell flat sawn and rift sawn together at the same price.

A boutique wood is quarter sawn walnut, sometimes called ribbon stripe....I hate the look :D.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

YellowHammer

I have premium prices for fleck visible quartersawn wood vs no fleck rift or quartersawn wood, which I sell at the same price as flat sawn.  Its like Larry says, some people don't like the vertical grain sawn wood, some prefer it, and we let them choose what they want to buy.  

One issue with vertical grain curly cherry is that the "curl" shows much better when flat sawn, so I have a conundrum of flatsawing it and getting better figure and a better price but more bowed boards, or vertical grain sawing it and getting flatter low figure wood, but better selling, flat boards.  

Ain't nothing easy.   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

KenMac

Quote from: YellowHammer on April 06, 2021, 01:46:25 PM
I have premium prices for fleck visible quartersawn wood vs no fleck rift or quartersawn wood, which I sell at the same price as flat sawn.  Its like Larry says, some people don't like the vertical grain sawn wood, some prefer it, and we let them choose what they want to buy.  

One issue with vertical grain curly cherry is that the "curl" shows much better when flat sawn, so I have a conundrum of flatsawing it and getting better figure and a better price but more bowed boards, or vertical grain sawing it and getting flatter low figure wood, but better selling, flat boards.  

Ain't nothing easy.  
My former boss used to tell us "If it was easy women and children would take your job!"     I believe him.
Cook's AC3667t, Cat Claw sharpener, Dual tooth setter, and Band Roller, Kubota B26 TLB, Takeuchi TB260C

scsmith42

We differentiate between low/medium fleck, and high fleck on quartersawn oak. 

All quartersawn is priced higher than flat sawn, with high fleck being 15-20% higher than low/medium fleck.

A surprising number of customers choose either low/medium fleck or a combination. Frequently they are using l/m QS in parts of the piece that are not visible.  On average 20% or so of our sales are low/med fleck.

We get a lot of calls for rift with no figure, and sell it at the same price as L/M fleck. I think that I could sell it for the same price as high fleck if I tried.

Granted, the preponderance of customers that call for QS request high fleck.

We ship nationwide all the time. Last week We shipped some 12" - 15" wide high fleck QS to Aruba. 



 
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

YellowHammer

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

firefighter ontheside

I had a feeling that the curve was because of juvenile wood on one edge.  If I ever get to where I'm creating a "store" of wood available for sale, then I can see doing exactly as you guys are saying.  As it is, I'm selling one or 2 logs worth of something at a time.  People pick thru the best stuff and then I end up either selling whats left at a lower price just to get it out of my way or I just put it on a shelf in my garage for my own use.  I quartersawed walnut a few weeks ago.  As far as the grain, I did not prefer it over flat sawn, but I really liked the boards that were half sap and half heart.  I can't wait to get them dry and plane one to see how it looks.

 @scsmith42 how big was that log to get such wide, quarter sawn boards.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

DonW

These comment about picky people taking the best and leaving the worst make me curious. As a sawyer, how long can you be happy with a repetition of this behavior by a single customer? Or is it a standard business model with everything built in. Personally, and partly to maintain good relations, I have generally made every effort to buy wood by stems. Variation within stems can mostly be satisfactorily accounted for in the work.
Hjartum yxa, nothing less than breitbeil/bandhacke combo.

WDH

I price my wood with a premium on the wide boards. They cherrypick the wide boards, but they pay more. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

scsmith42

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scsmith42

Quote from: DonW on April 07, 2021, 06:00:42 PM
These comment about picky people taking the best and leaving the worst make me curious. As a sawyer, how long can you be happy with a repetition of this behavior by a single customer? Or is it a standard business model with everything built in. Personally, and partly to maintain good relations, I have generally made every effort to buy wood by stems. Variation within stems can mostly be satisfactorily accounted for in the work.
We increase the price in 2" increments when the boards exceed 8" width. 
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scsmith42

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on April 07, 2021, 04:39:54 PM

@scsmith42 how big was that log to get such wide, quarter sawn boards.
That particular one would have been in the 36"-40" range.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

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