Main Menu

Sponsors:

Poll: windfall profits

Started by Ron Wenrich, February 13, 2006, 07:53:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jeff

I know what a windfall is, and they can be good things if you get to them before they rot and if they dont damage anything when they come down, many make some fine lumber but can someone explain to me what a profit is?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Cedarman

Are we talking cash in the pocket profit or like my profits, paper?(Not the little rectangle pieces with old people's pictures)

Profit,  is it that guy that tells the future?

sc42, looks like I want to sing in your choir too.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

florida

Oil companies don't set the price of oil, the market does. Just because the world market for oil is good right now is no reason to punish the stockholders of the oil companies. The oil companies made 9 cents on the dollar last quarter, Microsoft made 34 cents. Where is the hue and cry for taxing Microsoft more? What makes the last dollar of profit more valuable than the first?
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

wiam

It is more valuable because it belongs to someone else.

Will

IL Bull

NO!
Are they going to tax the sawyers in Louisiana and Mississippi for having low cost logs to mill?
Case Skid Steer,  Ford Backhoe,  Allis WD45 and Burg Manual Sawmill

Striker

Back before Jimmy Carter was elected President, gas and oil drilling was booming around here. A lot of people around here worked in the industry. President Carter decided that the people in the oil and gas business were making to much money. He and congress hit the oil and gas producers with a windfall profits tax. That killed the oil and gas business around here.

Jeff

Paschale

I guess I wish the question was different.  I answered yes, though I've always been a low tax capitalist--I think taxes are too high as it is,  and I usually  tend to roll my eyes when people start talking about raising taxes.  But, in this case, I have a REAL problem with the oil companies.  On the heels of Katrina, and the Gulf War, they got their PR people on the weekend talk shows whining about how hard things are for them, about how their supply chains were irreparably damaged.  This hits the markets, and BAM, the price for crude goes up.  What I find VERY suspect is that when crude was half the cost, they were making half the profit.  Now...crude is twice as expensive, and they make twice the profit.  This tells me that clearly they are passing off far more than simply the higher cost of crude to us the consumers.  Bottom line.  To me...that's gouging.  Do I want to tax them exorbitantly?  No.  But to my thinking, making more profit than ever, while complaining about how Katrina and the War has deleterious effected them seems criminal to me.  I'd like the SEC to open their books and see what's really going on.  That's what I want.

Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

Bill

There may be more than two sides to this story but I'd add another two cents . . .

Sure oil costs alot - another guy on TV took the price of oil umpteen years ago ( 20, 30 whatever but he was making a point ) and then adjusted it for the cost of living of those years. Guess what - its cheaper today then it was then. Now I'm not trying to let the oil companies off the hook - they make alot of money - thats the way supply and demand works. Few companies ( and few substitutes ) so as long as the demand is high then the price is high.

What I'd like to see is more substitutes ( read ethanol, biodiesel, %^&@# ) and more conservation. Instead I see my neighbors jump into their gas guzzlers at the drop of a hat and then cry the price is too high.

Now rightfully I believe there are many ways to save - has anyone else noticed that their old ( 93 ) car that weighed 3300 lbs got just as good mileage as the new 4000 lb cars. What the car mfg's gained in efficiency they turned back into "features" that weigh more ( of course ) so no increase in mileage.

But this is where we come in. In the short term we bite the bullet and do our best to conserve what we use now - but the next time we buy a car/truck ( or heater, or bulbs, or windows . . . ) we need to vote with our $$$.

back on task here -  should we tax them because they made too much ? Why because they did well ? Why because we bought it ? Why because they now have to find more ? and just who will decide whose making too much next time around ? Maybe Microsoft ( all profits once the program is written as it costs zilch to stamp out them little CD's that cost $100 - $300 ) or maybe loggers ( or farmers or fishermen or your next door neighbor or YOU ) since mother nature really did all the "hard work". 

Sure we can tax the big guy -
Abe Lincoln once said that you can't improve the little guys lot by tearing down the big guy, you need to lift everybody up to do well.

So let them keep their profits and let us conserve and find substitutes ( and may they be careful lest they go the way of the town blacksmith )

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Bill on February 16, 2006, 06:05:03 PM
There may be more than two sides to this story but I'd add another two cents . . .

Sure oil costs alot - another guy on TV took the price of oil umpteen years ago ( 20, 30 whatever but he was making a point ) and then adjusted it for the cost of living of those years. Guess what - its cheaper today then it was then.

There was a report recently released concerning average family income in Canada. It shows that annual income has only risen $500 over the last 15 years. In 1992 I was paying $0.42/litre for gas, now it's $0.96/litre. More than double, my wages didn't double.  In fact in high school I did a little research into wages of foresters and the average was $33,000 back in 1984. Not many making much more than that now. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bill

Ouch - shame on me for quoting a guy on TV - maybe he meant averages  ???  and I can't vouch for his figures nor math - of course I can say with alot of certainty that he makes more than you and I - probably combined .

The only thing I can do is try to change the things I can . . .

WeeksvilleWoodWorx

SwampDonkey,

It's funny you mention the declining wages in Canada in a thread about TAXES. Here is a write up about that very subject.

"The promises of yesterday are the taxes of today."

Is the quote I liked the best. Good read.
Brian - 2004 LT40HDG28 owner.

oldsaw

Quote from: ellmoe on February 13, 2006, 08:49:57 PM
   Due to circumstances beyound my control I've had a "windfall loss" before. I don't recall the government pitching in to help then. I sure wouldn't want them trying to take any "windfall profits" from me. The increase in fuel prices drove down demand, and then prices came back down. I think the market worked. Beside the ROI is not that great for the oil companies anyhow, it's the volume that makes it impressive.
Mark


What ellmoe said....
So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

Ron Wenrich

If I'm not mistaken, the oil companies did receive a lot of tax breaks during the last energy bill.  And, they got to drill Gulf oil for no royalty fees.  Does that qualify as a windfall profit or a windfall loss?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

isassi

I really have no room to complain. I agree with Bill, and when I was in college, in economics, I remeber the graph showing gasoline prices in 1924 compared to 1994. In '24, gasoline was something like .24 cents per gallon, and wages were barely .80 on an average. (think of the $5 a day Ford employess were paid) In '94, the  ratio is compared to $1.70 a gallon and average wages of $13.00 (median). Gasoline is one of the cheapest things we consume, en masse.  I agree that the profits the oil companies post is obscene, but just another part of the fair marcket economy. What about the traders of the oil futures who probably have no idea what a drilling rig or a pumping unit looks like and the record profits they post is not a public record due to no pulic stock holding in their judgement? So back to the first point, I have no room to complain. The community I live in (most of my life) has an economy based on agriculture and oil. Now we all know how profitable farming is. Oil fuels the construction and economic growth here and everytime I cringe at $2.35 diesel, I only have to think about how well I am doing in construction, and how it benifits our schools and community.

Cedarman

The only people I would put a windfall profits tax on is lawyers. They are the ones who make obscene profits. Politicians should be in there somewhere also.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

Reminds me of the pension fiasco with the defunct St Anne mill. The retirees are now trying to muster enough cash ($200,000 ??) to pay a lawyer to fight the government for reducing their pensions to redistribute funds among all workers 55 and older, not just the folks who were already in retirement. To me, it just looks like some lawyer is going to get rich off a few pensioners that haven't got a chance, like a snow ball in Haiti. Some folks who worked at the mill for 30 years were going to get nothing until the government restributed funds. Now if the funds aren't there, do they think I'm going to give them my tax dollars to give them a topped up pension? They are already getting Canada and Old Aged pensions besides. Their mill pension is already more than the average retiree is getting to live off.  ::) My uncle was laid off with about 20 other people 1 year before retirement, so they couldn't get pensions. They worked there for over 20 years, and some including my uncle help set the mill up. He traveled all over the country building mills and no one gave him no stinking pension. >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tom

Karl Marx thought that too.  As a matter of fact, his lean on things was that it all belonged to the Government anyway and you were just using it.  See, the Government can dole it out fairly and that way your neighbor won't have more than you will.   That's fair, isn't it?   I hear it a lot lately.   "The rich people have too much".  "Rich people are bad", "big business corrupts", "that fellow has too much money".  "They have more than they need".   Stuff like that.

Now, the Russians must've had it right. the USSR just kept the citizens in a manner that was equally fair for all.  Wonderful wasn't it?   Too bad it didn't work long enough to usurp the entire world.  That is what they wanted.  I don't think I would have liked it.  But then, I'm not too smart when it comes to Political Economics.  We still have a lot of people running the streets here in the USA that believe that "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too".   They riot the streets now and again burn up their stores and take stuff from others that is "rightfully theirs anyway".

Some of them even made it to the top of the companies that they think were so bad.  You hear of them taking huge bonuses from dieing companies and moving retirement funds into areas that make them available to folks other than who they were initially destined. Sometimes they can move into a job and gut the profits so that they can run with their take while the company whimpers in the aftermath.  It's only right you know.   Those workers wouldn't be happy if they had all that money anyway.   Yep, charge what the market will bear.  Put the screws to your buddy before he figures out that he can get ahead by putting the screws to you.  It's only ethics.  What in the Hell has that got to do with anything. 

Social Economics.  I wonder why we don't understand more about it?   I remember a story told by Brother Dave Gardner about a fellow at a work site, leaning on his shovel saying, "one of these days, I'm going to own this constructioncompany".  There was another fellow down in the hole with a shovel and he was digging to beat the band.  Twenty years later, the fellow in the hole owned the company and the fellow leaning on his was still right there saying, "one of these days I'm going to own this construction company".   It's amazing how unfair companies can be.  They actually allowed the fellow in the hole to surpass the fellow on the shovel.  What would Karl have thought?   Well, Karl might have understood a little better than Nikita.  Nikita didn't have a clue.  He was too busy trying to make  life fair for everybody.

Brother Dave figured  "don't tax the rich.  ya ought to tax the little man....  give him something to strive for.....   let'em get on out there and do something.".  Yes sir, tax'em. Teddy K. understands that.  That's what makes him such a wise and fair fellow.   See, He'd spread all of his wealth to the needy and eat cornbread if he just didn't need all the money so that he could fight poverty and look out for the little man.  Course he would have to drive a Chevy and wear combat boots, so.....  well...    I guess that wasn't a good idea after all.  The poor fellow would starve to death.

Yes sir.  Taxes!   They are wonderful things.  They are about the only thing we have for redistributing the wealth.  Taking one fellow's hard earned dollars and giving them to some sorry sack of worthlessness on the street corner.  Is there such a thing as a fair tax?  Yes, I think so.  We don't like them, but we need to keep water running and roads paved and armies fed.  Somebody has to pay for it and a share of the country to one man should be a share to the other.    The problem with Taxes is when we start trying it identify the worth of the earnings of another man.  It's those "others" that always make too much.  I don't think I've ever had a day in my life when I thought I had too much money.

beenthere

Tom, well said.

Now, I haven't started working on my taxes yet, but you must have started working on yours this morning.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Cedarman

How many of us hate forced taxes?  How many of us  had visions of sugarplums dancing in our heads as we voluntarily  donated to the government when we bought powerball tickets?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

When I used to work at the marketing board, Revenue Canada used to send notices to us to collect on income taxes for a particular logger. I never thought it was our role or business to collect revenue taxes for government. That's between government and the guy who owes the income tax. It's not the same as collecting goods and services or provincial sales tax in my mind. The government used intimidation and said it was the law. What about our staff that has to deal with the irate logger because we had to withhold that tax? We never got a cent from government to administer that function.  >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))